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Awards Season 2019 - Movie Edition: Show Must Go On! (UPDATE: Oscar Noms, SAG Winners)

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Someone pointed out during an uh, discussion about Black Panther that 8 of the 14 people nominated for it are white. I find that sad and funny at the same time.

Also I think Braveheart is just a shit movie overall, but yeah the history part makes 300 look accurate.

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1 minute ago, Darth Richard II said:

Someone pointed out during an uh, discussion about Black Panther that 8 of the 14 people nominated for it are white. I find that sad and funny at the same time.

Also I think Braveheart is just a shit movie overall, but yeah the history part makes 300 look accurate.

Because?!

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Because of the people screaming about how it only got the noms so they could nominate more black people and as a pushback to the oscars so white thing. It’s...not a hard concept.

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5 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Actually thinking about it, I think there are a few movies missing from the list. Leave no trace, You were never really here, Hereditary could and should be mentioned I think. Maybe not quite the movies you'd expect to see for Oscars, but certainly better than many actually nominated. 

All good shouts. Toni Collette not being nominated is a huge snub, imo. 

Thomasin McKenzie from Leave No Trace was pretty deserving, too. 

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2 hours ago, Risto said:

1999!!! Shakespeare in Love over Saving Private Ryan and Paltrow over Blanchett.

The latter one still hurts.

Once again, we are in agreement. Shakespeare in Love winning so much that year all the evidence I need to show this “dud nominees” is not a recent phenomenon.

5 hours ago, Risto said:

Honestly, the entire year was such a dud, that it undoubtedly reflected on the nominations. With the entire host fiasco, one can say that no one is really looking forward that particular night. 

I am sorry, I am a huge Queen fan, but "Bohemian Rhapsody" is hardly worthy of being nominated for Best Picture. But, given no director, screenplay and cinematography nominations, with only editing and best actor nominations, it does speak that it is not something we can expect to win. Same with "Black Panther". We have movies that somehow are best but ultimately fail to bring more nominations among the major categories (Black Panther, interestingly, didn't get Visual Effects nom, but got Score, Song and Sound Editing, along with the Costumes.)

I really hope Glenn Close can finally get that Oscar. I would really, really HATE to see Lady Gaga winning. I would expect Bradley Cooper to finally getting his Oscar. I will see SAG awards, but it seems Mahershala Ali has this in his bag. That said, to achieve second Oscar that quickly speaks a lot. Regina King also looks like a safe bet. 

That is even understatement... I don't know what was the last thing he did without getting a nomination for Oscars. Probably, Deathly hallows part 2 :D He had almost 10 nominations in 10 years. 

It was a fun moment seeing it on that list. I really don't know much about visual effects, but I do know that it wasn't THAT good :D

 

Why would you hate Gaga winning so much? I mean prefer Colman but she was really very good in A Star is born, it certainly wouldn’t be the biggest ‘crime’ seen by the oscars!

 

Also, why is it a token nomination when a mediocre film focusing on black people is nominated but when awful films starring straight white people are nominated it’s just a shrug and move on?

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58 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Once again, we are in agreement. Shakespeare in Love winning so much that year all the evidence I need to show this “dud nominees” is not a recent phenomenon.

Oh, Paltrow/Shakespeare wins are another story. It wasn't a dud year, it was actually one man.

 

59 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Why would you hate Gaga winning so much? I mean prefer Colman but she was really very good in A Star is born, it certainly wouldn’t be the biggest ‘crime’ seen by the oscars!

I call it post Jennifer Hudson awards stress disorder. :D Not to mention the phoniness of her press tour. She is one of the world's most successful pop artists. Having her in a musical IS NOT THAT out of reach. Certainly not one in hundred :D 

It is not that Gaga would be such a terrible winner, it is just that Close and Colman deserve it so much that it would be terrible not to see one of them. I expect Close to win due to "time has finally come" narrative.

1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Also, why is it a token nomination when a mediocre film focusing on black people is nominated but when awful films starring straight white people are nominated it’s just a shrug and move on?

I hope this was not directed to me.

But since we have opened the can of worms... I completely understand your point but that is the narrative that has been created. And it is not just about movies about African Americans, same can be said about movies with women at the centre, or LGBTQIA+ movies etc. 

In 2014, Ellen DeGeneres made a joke about "12 years a slave". In her opening monologue, she said "Either 12YS wins a Best Picture, or you're all racists." Like that saying goes, it is funny cause it's true. Sadly. Due to having two years without ethnic nominees in acting categories, some believe that Hollywood is trying to compensate it. And "Black Panther" represents that. A movie you HAD TO love. Why? Because it became more than just a spring blockbuster. The press and Hollywood elevated the movie to the point where we had "Best popular movie" category created. And the revoked. So, there is a feeling that Academy is trying to redeem itself for the past sins. 

That said, I do believe is a nonsense. But we are in a vicious circle where Academy became a dead horse for all those who want to look like innocent parties. Luckily, there are those like Whoopi Goldberg, Chris Rock and Regina King who very openly spoke about the issue not being with the Academy but with the studio policies. African American actors, directors, writers are immensely talented and we deserve to see the fruits of their labor, and ultimately to see them getting awarded for the work they have done. 

Another huge problem is the disadvantage factor. These days everyone seems to be disadvantaged in some way. We spoke earlier about Lady Gaga who was selling "one in 100 men believed in me" story. It is like EVERYONE in Hollywood is some sort of victim. And it is not that I don't buy some of those stories, but we also have to acknowledge that some of those are well, false.

Lastly, would I nominate Black Panther? Absolutely not, I can say the same for "Bohemian Rhapsody" (and if anyone calls it LGBTQI+ movie, think again) But as we said, it is a dud year and BP certainly isn't the worst movie (BY FAR) that has been nominated in this category for many years. But people see BP as a bait for audience, given its popularity plus a good thing to have associated with Oscars given their tarnished history in the past several years. So, while it is normal to have mediocre "white" movies being nominated, we really don't get many chances to see mediocre "black" films being nominated (those nominated are overwhelmingly outstanding). It's a new territory for some :D

 

 

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On 1/22/2019 at 5:03 PM, HelenaExMachina said:

Why would you hate Gaga winning so much? I mean prefer Colman but she was really very good in A Star is born, it certainly wouldn’t be the biggest ‘crime’ seen by the oscars!

 

I'm with you on this, I thought that was one of the best movies I saw in 2018. Her and Cooper were great together. It's supposed to be about the performance, not about getting someone a long over due trophy.

 

As to Bohemian Rhapsody, why couldn't it win? What about it isn't worthy of being nominated? Everyone who I know that has seen it loved it and was moved at some point during it, isn't that what a great movie is supposed to do? It has a great story, great acting performance, great theater experience and blew away the competition at the box office, which isn't a award barometer but shows how good of a movie it is. Hell it's the only non super hero/action/ CGI movie in the top 15 box office sales, something like 750mill for a biopic.

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On 1/22/2019 at 10:03 PM, HelenaExMachina said:

 

Why would you hate Gaga winning so much? I mean prefer Colman but she was really very good in A Star is born, it certainly wouldn’t be the biggest ‘crime’ seen by the oscars!

I thought Gaga was 'fine', and any positive reaction I had to her performance was because I was pleasantly surprised, thinking she would be terrible. But I would say that I came away feeling like she had 'acted' throughout, that she was doing a performance, rather than living it. I know her performance was intended to be realistic, and in many ways it was. Possibly its because her face is simply too hollywood now, had too much done to it, that I can't believe in it.
 

On 1/22/2019 at 10:03 PM, HelenaExMachina said:

Also, why is it a token nomination when a mediocre film focusing on black people is nominated but when awful films starring straight white people are nominated it’s just a shrug and move on?

I don't think there is a great deal of trust in any of the movies in the Oscars being nominated for purely artistic reasons. 'Oscar bait' is a term used for a reason.

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2 hours ago, dbunting said:

I'm with you on this, I thought that was one of the best movies I saw in 2018. Her and Cooper were great together. It's supposed to be about the performance, not about getting someone a long over due trophy.

It also should not be about popularity, and yet, Oscars are both. We can talk about Leonardo diCaprio, for example, who had both of those working for him. And even if we ignore overdue and popularity narrative, I would still choose Close or Colman over Gaga. But, that's just me.

2 hours ago, dbunting said:

As to Bohemian Rhapsody, why couldn't it win? What about it isn't worthy of being nominated? Everyone who I know that has seen it loved it and was moved at some point during it, isn't that what a great movie is supposed to do? It has a great story, great acting performance, great theater experience and blew away the competition at the box office, which isn't a award barometer but shows how good of a movie it is. Hell it's the only non super hero/action/ CGI movie in the top 15 box office sales, something like 750mill for a biopic.

Because it was a mediocre movie about a freakin LEGEND who deserved better. Yes, Malek was amazing in his impersonation of Mercury, but take down the mannerism, take down the yellow jacket and the songs that were used in the movie and what do you have? A deep story about one of the greatest music artists of 20th century who was both adored and despised? No. The movie leaves bad taste in your proverbial mouth. 

I am watching it again with my friends during the weekend, so I will finally make a decision about it, but I do feel that the movie was complete let down. And insult to Mercury. But, that particular can of worms will have to wait the weekend.

53 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

But I would say that I came away feeling like she had 'acted' throughout, that she was doing a performance, rather than living it.

Like Katherine Hepburn said about Meryl Streep "you can see the wheels turning in her head" or "being too cerebral". We are at the age of naturalistic style of acting. Actor is supposed to lose themselves in the role. Like legends of old Hollywood, Gaga was never able to do that, the only difference is that, unlike the likes of Hepburn or Lucile Ball, Gaga is a beginner in acting and hasn't quite mastered the subtle art of selling "performance" on screen. 

 

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25 minutes ago, Risto said:

Like Katherine Hepburn said about Meryl Streep "you can see the wheels turning in her head" or "being too cerebral". We are at the age of naturalistic style of acting. Actor is supposed to lose themselves in the role. Like legends of old Hollywood, Gaga was never able to do that, the only difference is that, unlike the likes of Hepburn or Lucile Ball, Gaga is a beginner in acting and hasn't quite mastered the subtle art of selling "performance" on screen. 

 

Yeah this is exactly what I was trying to say, thank you. It felt like, I dunno, watching someone from stage school really dig their teeth into a part. In fact the whole role was designed to elicit an oscar, it was tragic and hopeful, but showed a more human side as a reflection of truly being a star. Its probably the reason 'A Star is Born' has been remade so many times with so many different actors. 

And I thought Cooper was good as well, and if putting on a gruff voice wins awards then he should get one for that.

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I certainly wouldn’t pick Gaga to win, I only brought it up because I didn’t find her nomination particularly problematic. I haven’t seen all of the nominees. But Colman really was brilliant. Two scene in particular stand out for her acting. The long extreme close up of her face as she watches the (absurd) dance. And the scene where she becomes distraught and runs through the palace looking for her child.

Just having a look and the supporting actress category is very strong this year too. I suspect it’s Regina King’s to lose based on the rest of the awards (the film isn’t out here till Feb :rolleyes:) but honestly I wouldn’t mind any of them winning.

That always frustrates me too, that the nominees are nearly always films nobody cares about because they haven’t even been released yet 

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23 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

And I thought Cooper was good as well, and if putting on a gruff voice wins awards then he should get one for that.

I expect him to win. Although, having Bale winning wouldn't be that bad. My money is on Cooper.

4 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I certainly wouldn’t pick Gaga to win, I only brought it up because I didn’t find her nomination particularly problematic. I haven’t seen all of the nominees. But Colman really was brilliant. Two scene in particular stand out for her acting. The long extreme close up of her face as she watches the (absurd) dance. And the scene where she becomes distraught and runs through the palace looking for her child.

Oh, don't get me wrong. It is not problematic. It is just one of those performances that would ordinarily be overlooked. We established the fact that it's a dud year. I always have 10, 20 names for those 5 slots. This year, even these five were "OK" for me. I missed 2018's cinematic flare, it seems.

That said, Colman is superb and I can't wait to see her in "The Crown". As well as Helena Bonham Carter.

7 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

That always frustrates me too, that the nominees are nearly always films nobody cares about because they haven’t even been released yet 

Oscars are about certain prestige. And we spoke last year that in the past 20 years, Oscars did move to more independent cinema and small projects that wouldn't get wide releases (hence why  some thought "popular film" is such a good idea). But it is also what makes Oscar special. It gives a new life to movies that would ordinarily be forgotten. And sometimes, I do believe that is a good thing. Some movies really need help to find their audiences.

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On 1/22/2019 at 11:35 PM, Risto said:

Because it became more than just a spring blockbuster.

OK, first: BP was always more than just a spring blockbuster, and anyone who doesn't realise that isn't really thinking about it.

Consider: this is a film where the only two white actors are the secondary villain and an almost entirely superfluous (one might even say token) white American, who could frankly be written out entirely with a couple of strokes of the pen. The design, from day one, set out to put African and black cultural influences on screen that hadn't been centred in a major film like this before, and not to present them as some alien 'other' but as the dominant cultural milieu. 

But most importantly, this was a film that took as its unquestioned starting point that black people are unjustly oppressed all over the globe and that this is an urgent issue: and that had an antagonist who was enraged by this to the point of trying to start an armed revolution, and yet portrayed that character in a way that wasn't unsympathetic. That's radical stuff in any Hollywood film. Can you name another movie where that happens? 

Second, even leaving all that aside, the fact that it became more than just a spring blockbuster is important and a valid reason for it to be in the conversation. And that's because the reasons for it becoming more, the cultural significance of it, contributes to its importance and therefore its award-worthiness. 

It's no secret how important I think the film is. Honestly, I think about it a fair bit. That alone is significant. Other Marvel movies might perhaps have tighter scripts or better action sequences or funnier quips, but BP is the one that resonated with a lot of people. Of course, the people it resonated with tend not to be well represented in the Academy. It'll walk off with a bunch of technical awards nobody much cares about, the usual fate of a genre film the Academy wants to ignore, but can't. But it absolutely deserves to be in the nominees. 

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On 1/22/2019 at 4:51 PM, Risto said:

I really hope Glenn Close can finally get that Oscar. I would really, really HATE to see Lady Gaga winning. I would expect Bradley Cooper to finally getting his Oscar. I will see SAG awards, but it seems Mahershala Ali has this in his bag. That said, to achieve second Oscar that quickly speaks a lot. Regina King also looks like a safe bet. 
 

 

LOL. Finally? Cos he's waited SUCH a long time? Like, longer than Christian Bale* or Viggo Mortensen (who both happen to be substantially better actors with better range)?

*I mean Best Actor, yes he has one for Best Supporting Actor

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50 minutes ago, mormont said:

. And that's because the reasons for it becoming more, the cultural significance of it, contributes to its importance and therefore its award-worthiness. 

Well it brings up the question as to why movies are nominated. Is it because of cultural significance, because it made lots of money, or because it is judged by its peers to be the best movie of the year. Ideally those three elements would all come together to make an obvious winner, but you'd have to say that a movie has to be judged on it's technical merits over just how much cash it brought in, or what it represents.

What we are told Blank Panther represents, is of course, by design. It was created and marketed as 'the black super hero' movie, and a cultural force to get behind to fight racial inequality. Marvel has banked on this and used it from day one. As you mentioned, there are lots of elements within the movie that are empowering for some people, and many people enjoyed the movie simply because of the inclusion of those elements. 

But if the movie falls down at the basic technical level, then does it really deserve to be there? Does it really deserve an award in other categories it hasn't been nominated in? Director? Lead or supporting actors? Screenplay? Cinematography? 

No, when you look at the others in those categories you would be hard pressed to argue that BP has any right to be there among them. I would say the same for Infinity War, which I think is a far superior movie to BP as well. And if you can't argue that it should be in those categories than all you are doing is suggesting it should be best picture for pure cultural reasons, then isn't that tokenism?

By way of comparison I'd suggest that Get Out combined a lot of cultural significance, with also being a good movie, with good performances, a good script and it was well directed. 



 

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1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Well it brings up the question as to why movies are nominated. Is it because of cultural significance, because it made lots of money, or because it is judged by its peers to be the best movie of the year.

We all know the answer to that.

Was the movie made by a white male director with a critical reputation? Then it gets nominated. 

Is the movie about Hollywood? Nominated.

Historical costume drama featuring a critically acclaimed actor? Nominated.

Star doing a two-hour impersonation of a famous historical person with a tragic life, ideally gay or disabled, although of course the star themselves cannot under any circumstances be either? Nominated.

Movie directed by a POC, or a woman, or a genre movie? Then it gets measured against a hypothetical ur-nominee that is critically acclaimed, commercially successful, technically perfect, and cures cancer. If it can't do all that, then oh dear, the Oscars are about only the best films, you know? Sorry.  

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

But if the movie falls down at the basic technical level

Why deal in hypotheticals?

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Does it really deserve an award in other categories it hasn't been nominated in?

Yes.

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

No, when you look at the others in those categories you would be hard pressed to argue that BP has any right to be there among them.

I found it very easy to argue just that.

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1 minute ago, mormont said:

We all know the answer to that.

Was the movie made by a white male director with a critical reputation? Then it gets nominated. 

Is the movie about Hollywood? Nominated.

Historical costume drama featuring a critically acclaimed actor? Nominated.

Star doing a two-hour impersonation of a famous historical person with a tragic life, ideally gay or disabled, although of course the star themselves cannot under any circumstances be either? Nominated.

Agree with all this. The oscars have a long history of nominating certain movies it views as worthy, and as you pointed out, those usually fall into the same categories, especially if they feature an actor doing a disabled person impression or are about Hollywood itself.
That doesn't mean that those movies deserved to nominated either. I would use the same arguments as to why BP shouldn't be nominated as to why Chicago or Beautiful Mind shouldn't be there either.

Quote

Movie directed by a POC, or a woman, or a genre movie? Then it gets measured against a hypothetical ur-nominee that is critically acclaimed, commercially successful, technically perfect, and cures cancer. If it can't do all that, then oh dear, the Oscars are about only the best films, you know? Sorry.  

Not sure about this. Genre movies are always looked down upon, I think we all tend to accept that. They aren't considered by many to be more than cheap entertainment, not art. The movies that tend to do well at the oscars at least have the veneer of artistic value even if they are just cheap crap (Hello there A Star is Born)

But movies like Hurt Locker and 12 Years a Slave were seen to be simply great movies, and deserved their place. I wouldn't compare Black Panther to them at all. 

I'd be interested in why you think that Black Panther deserves awards for Director, Screenplay, Cinematography, or any acting awards. I can buy that you find enjoy the movie and you think its cultural significance gives it some sort of right to have any award, but it sounds to me like you are being purposely stubborn if you think the movie comes close to others in those categories. (Michael B Jordan would be the only person I'd consider deserving of any acting awards, but even then he's been so much better in other movies than this one, it would seem insulting to him.)

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31 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

But movies like Hurt Locker and 12 Years a Slave were seen to be simply great movies, and deserved their place. I wouldn't compare Black Panther to them at all. 

I didn't. 

But the fact that you did speaks volumes.

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Just now, mormont said:

I didn't. 

But the fact that you did speaks volumes.

In what way?

Also, were you going to explain why you feel BP deserves noms for director, acting, cinematography etc?

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38 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

In what way?

It makes my point. These films had to be outstanding just to get a nomination. You compare BP to these in arguing that it doesn't deserve a nomination - instead of comparing it to the more run-of-the-mill nominees to accept that it does (or comparing those other nominees to Hurt Locker and 12 Years). 

In doing so, you demonstrate the mindset I'm talking about. If a film by and about POC gets a nomination, people will compare it to the best of the best and hold it to that standard, arguing about it endlessly. If a Spielberg or Eastwood or Scorcese film gets a nod it probably doesn't merit, people just shrug and accept that 'that's the way it is'. 

38 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Also, were you going to explain why you feel BP deserves noms for director, acting, cinematography etc?

It deserves a nomination for Best Director because of the things I already discussed, most of which come from the creative vision of Ryan Coogler. You already noted, however grudgingly, that you agree Michael B Jordan might have earned an acting nomination and let's face it - that's not a radical view. I myself would incline towards other awards, including cinematography, but they're subjective, I know. YMMV, and in fact I know it does. 

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