Scribes of Caution for Young Girls

[Ran]

27 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

@Lord Varys

Baelor I was a pacifist.

Indeed. The Faith Militant wouldn't appeal at all to Baelor. He'd likelier encourage the founding of new septries and motherhouses, rather than trying to arm the Faith. Perhaps he would have thought of it in his last months, if the rumors of his odder notions are true, but then, we don't know -- and nothing came of it, anyways, since he died.

The Free Cities has significant trade and contact with Westeros across the narrow sea. There must be many scribes, involved in matters such as mercantile contracts and letters between associates on both sides of the water, who'd have the ability to copy texts in the Westerosi languages. An obscene book like the Caution, which would be kept very much underground because of its contents, would be difficult to produce en masse in Westeros... but not in the Free Cities, which does not share the same cultural-moral constraints. And yet, if the very nature of the book puts it in high demand where you could secure a very large profit for producing a copy... well, the Free Cities are mercantile paradise, and provided they have the means, they will provide a supply to meet the demand.

I definitely believe Coryanne Wylde dictated something like it, and the initial copies were made in Oldtown. But the production of many hundreds of copies can't have been primarily in Westeros. Those "hired quills" from the Free Cities makes sense. They've industrialized ship production in Braavos, they've developed the grinding of lenses and glassblowing to a high level in Myr, and there's not a lot of reason to think they don't have a very vivid "manuscript culture" in the Free Cities as compared to that of Westeros, where one of the Great Houses can genuinely boast of having a hundred-odd books in its library as being significant. 

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Ran said:

Indeed. The Faith Militant wouldn't appeal at all to Baelor. He'd likelier encourage the founding of new septries and motherhouses, rather than trying to arm the Faith. Perhaps he would have thought of it in his last months, if the rumors of his odder notions are true, but then, we don't know -- and nothing came of it, anyways, since he died.

See above for Baelor. There has to be an explanation why the Faith didn't get through with its - most likely still existent - desire to restore the Faith Militant. And there are good reasons as to why even a pacifist could have been convinced that the Swords and Stars would be a great improvement.

2 minutes ago, Ran said:

The Free Cities has significant trade and contact with Westeros across the narrow sea. There must be many scribes, involved in matters such as mercantile contracts and letters between associates on both sides of the water, who'd have the ability to copy texts in the Westerosi languages. And if aAn obscene book like the Caution, which would be kept very much underground because of its contents, would be difficult to produce en masse in Westeros... but not in the Free Cities, which does not share the same cultural-moral constraints. 

Well, that's the thing - do we have actual reason to believe that such books have to be produced 'underground'. Gyldayn claims maesters and septons and the like would not copy such books - but that doesn't make it so, nor does it mean that either the Crown or the Faith persecutes maesters and septas and septons doing that kind of thing.

If you had lord X being interested in pornographic art he most certainly could have put his maester and septon and septa and scribes, etc. to work on copying and purchasing such items, no? Who could have stopped him?

The same also would go for certain Hightowers being interested in that topic.

2 minutes ago, Ran said:

I definitely believe Coryanne Wylde dictated something like it, and the initial copies were made in Oldtown. But the production of many hundreds of copies can't have been primarily in Westeros. Those "hired quills" from the Free Cities makes sense. They've industrialized ship production in Braavos, they've developed the grinding of lenses and glassblowing to a high level in Myr, and there's not a lot of reason to think they don't have a very vivid "manuscript culture" in the Free Cities as compared to that of Westeros, where one of the Great Houses boasts of having a hundred-odd books in its library.

There are certainly many scribes and mummers in the Free Cities that are - more or less - fluent in the Common Tongue, but at this point we have no hint that they really produce 'forbidden manuscripts' for the Westerosi. Might be - but we can just as well assume that there is no real ban on pornographic literature after all - or if there were technically such a ban, then the authorities are not exactly persecuting anyone for this.

After all, the Faith no longer has the means to persecute anyone anyway.

[Ran]

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Gyldayn claims maesters and septons and the like would not copy such books - but that doesn't make it so,

I feel like it would be much too obvious a lie to any of his readers to make any such claim with a straight face if it were obviously false. It's one thing to question his sources of information about events for which he was not present, but when he discusses structural aspects of how the world works (e.g. the various types of producers of copied manuscripts), this is an obvious world-building detail.

The individual corrupt maester or septon might... but the issue is that there were what seem to have been many hundreds of copies in the span of a few decades, and if you look to the Middle Ages such popular texts would have been created through mercantile interests, not universities or the Church. Maesters do not have much use for turning a profit, septons want to keep their place in their hierarchy, but scribes whose income is entirely based on copying texts... well, they may have a need. But scribes are generally commoners, and those in Westeros run the risk of being run out of business if they cross the Faith or some pious lord or other local authority who'd take umbrage. 

For that matter, we are told that the text appears to be more of a matter of the non-noble class, people in the "low places", people with "goodwives", and so on. And to be sure, an obscene book making the lords and ladies of Westeros look like lascivious perverts would probably not be looked on fondly by many nobles in Westeros.

Finally, it provides very sound reasons for why the books have varied texts: these were not rigorous copyists, but people who in the course of copying also added their own details to attempt to enhance the value of their text. Which against suggests profit motive, and again points to scribes rather than maesters or septons.

I suspect failed scholars and defrocked septons in Oldtown started the initial wave of the very oldest and shortest form of the text, but the apparent high demand in those "low places" would have made it much, much easier for workshops in the Free Cities to create the supply to meet it... and as each workshop would have wanted to distinguish itself, that's where the expanded editions with new details and episodes start coming into it.

I definitely see no reason to think that most of the copying was being done on the behalf of noblemen who were having their own maesters or septons carry out the copying. The people producing the bulk of the copies were doing it for money.

Quote

nor does it mean that either the Crown or the Faith persecutes maesters and septas and septons doing that kind of thing.

And yet the suggestion that such things are too obscene for normal society suggests that there must be some risk to them, and the general opprobium of the Faith and perhaps even persecution from the Crown don't seem out of place.

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we have no hint that they really produce 'forbidden manuscripts' for the Westerosi.

Since Gyldayn explicitly mentions "hired quills" in the Free Cities who are among the likely sources of the copies, I rather think we have been told.

 

 

[The Grey Wolf]

Burning books isn't the same as killing people so that's not an issue for a zealous pacifist obsessed with physical and spiritual purity.

[Ran]

1 hour ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Burning books isn't the same as killing people so that's not an issue for a zealous pacifist obsessed with physical and spiritual purity.

Also true. Very different categories of activity...

 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Burning books isn't the same as killing people so that's not an issue for a zealous pacifist obsessed with physical and spiritual purity.

 

4 minutes ago, Ran said:

Also true. Very different categories of activity...

Books do not burn all by themselves, though, nor is there any chance that lords and maesters and merchants collecting 'obscene' and 'forbidden literature' by the mad standards of King Baelor suddenly stumble over each other in an effort to be the first to throw their valuable books into the flames.

Baelor would have used thugs and swords and the threats of both to get so much as a single book on a pyre...

That is not something a pacifist would be able to do. And most of the men collecting obscene or esoteric or heretical literature would laugh their pious king in the face if he was just threatening with the fires of the seven hells should they not hand out their books for burning.

1 hour ago, Ran said:

I feel like it would be much too obvious a lie to any of his readers to make any such claim with a straight face if it were obviously false. It's one thing to question his sources of information about events for which he was not present, but when he discusses structural aspects of how the world works (e.g. the various types of producers of copied manuscripts), this is an obvious world-building detail.

I think his arguments there are more about protecting the honor of his own profession (and in lesser degree that of the Faith) than actually giving a proper assessment of the mechanics of the world as such. 

I do not doubt that there are all kind of scribes and the like, I just doubt that we can take him at face value that the Faith or the Citadel care less about obscene literature than the other scribal professions. Men frequenting brothels which try to attract literate patrons should be, in no small part, be septons and maesters and men studying to become such - especially in the city of Oldtown.

And overall, the obscene amount of pages Gyldayn covers with this story that literally goes nowhere besides between Coryanne Wylde's legs strongly suggests that he himself is actually in no small part interested in 'filth' like that.

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Finally, it provides very sound reasons for why the books have varied texts: these were not rigorous copyists, but people who in the course of copying also added their own details to attempt to enhance the value of their text. Which against suggests profit motive, and again points to scribes rather than maesters or septons.

Oh, I also don't really buy the idea that only lesser scribes didn't change the material they were given - especially maesters should correct errors in a work they copy if it gives factually wrong information, not to mention putting forth theories they are opposed to. The Citadel doesn't seem to be an institution that enshrines 'ancient knowledge' - it is, at least in part, based on empiricism and experimentation. For instance, chances are very low that a Westerosi Aristotle would be treated with the same reverence by the Citadel a thousand years after his death. His works would be seen as great works in their own age, but subsequent generations of maesters would have used them merely as their basis to improve their knowledge on, causing the present day editions of such works actually reflecting the present day level of knowledge - very much like a text book on biology today reflects our current scientific understanding and not that of Darwin's days, say.

History books shouldn't be changed while being copied, of course, and it is also quite clear that texts written for entertainment reasons (which clearly was the purpose of Coryanne's book in the later versions) were subject to alterations based on financial reasons.

1 hour ago, Ran said:

And yet the suggestion that such things are too obscene for normal society suggests that there must be some risk to them, and the general opprobium of the Faith and perhaps even persecution from the Crown don't seem out of place.

The difference here is between something that's seen as 'inappropriate' and stuff that's forbidden by law. There is no indication that pornography is actually banned by the Faith or the Crown - rather that it seen as bad for morals, something you don't read to/show children/youths, etc. but not necessarily the non-existent secret police of Westeros is trying to actively suppress. A lot of stuff does happen in this world precisely because it doesn't really a functioning law enforcement system.

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Since Gyldayn explicitly mentions "hired quills" in the Free Cities who are among the likely sources of the copies, I rather think we have been told.

Oh, I interpret that as those hired quills actually living in Westeros - in Oldtown, KL, Gulltown, Lannisport and the other coastal cities and towns - rather than there being an active manuscript industry in the Free Cities flooding Westeros with pornography the ways the British flooded China with opium back in the day.

That seems to be too great of leap for me.

[lysmonger]

19 hours ago, Ran said:

A bit of research online brings to mind a couple of useful antecedents. I had started by wondering about Boccacio's Decameron, which had some erotic passages, and which was widely copied in Italy in the 14th and 15th century. This led to then looking at the Wikipedia article on manuscript culture and it discusses the rise of secular book-copying workshops, and also the development in Italy of a system called pecia which was used by universities to make pieces of manuscripts readily available... but also provides a model for how rapid reproduction could be done.

To me, workshops like this would explain the (relatively) wide availability of a popular, obscene text in Westeros. It seems hard to imagine mass production of the Caution for Young Girls by workshops of scribes could happen under the Faith's nose in Oldtown, but perhaps one or two such groups could do something there, failed students and acolytes alike, hidden away in some nook and keeping it on the down-low. But the Free Cities seems a likelier place for it, not least because they appear to be more secular (Norvos excepted) and also more broadly literate.

So, yeah, I think Gyldayn's reference to "hired quills" accounts for the majority of the copies, and if workshops were turning it out they were doing it on demand from clients or speculatively on the assumption they'd be able to make a profit.

The irish and norman clerks/secular monks come to mind, especially the ones who were chronicling all the norman princelings all through europe. There was so much insane gossip amongst the hundreds of them.

 

[lysmonger]

13 hours ago, Ran said:

I feel like it would be much too obvious a lie to any of his readers to make any such claim with a straight face if it were obviously false. It's one thing to question his sources of information about events for which he was not present, but when he discusses structural aspects of how the world works (e.g. the various types of producers of copied manuscripts), this is an obvious world-building detail.

The individual corrupt maester or septon might... but the issue is that there were what seem to have been many hundreds of copies in the span of a few decades, and if you look to the Middle Ages such popular texts would have been created through mercantile interests, not universities or the Church. Maesters do not have much use for turning a profit, septons want to keep their place in their hierarchy, but scribes whose income is entirely based on copying texts... well, they may have a need. But scribes are generally commoners, and those in Westeros run the risk of being run out of business if they cross the Faith or some pious lord or other local authority who'd take umbrage. 

For that matter, we are told that the text appears to be more of a matter of the non-noble class, people in the "low places", people with "goodwives", and so on. And to be sure, an obscene book making the lords and ladies of Westeros look like lascivious perverts would probably not be looked on fondly by many nobles in Westeros.

Finally, it provides very sound reasons for why the books have varied texts: these were not rigorous copyists, but people who in the course of copying also added their own details to attempt to enhance the value of their text. Which against suggests profit motive, and again points to scribes rather than maesters or septons.

I suspect failed scholars and defrocked septons in Oldtown started the initial wave of the very oldest and shortest form of the text, but the apparent high demand in those "low places" would have made it much, much easier for workshops in the Free Cities to create the supply to meet it... and as each workshop would have wanted to distinguish itself, that's where the expanded editions with new details and episodes start coming into it.

I definitely see no reason to think that most of the copying was being done on the behalf of noblemen who were having their own maesters or septons carry out the copying. The people producing the bulk of the copies were doing it for money.

And yet the suggestion that such things are too obscene for normal society suggests that there must be some risk to them, and the general opprobium of the Faith and perhaps even persecution from the Crown don't seem out of place.

Since Gyldayn explicitly mentions "hired quills" in the Free Cities who are among the likely sources of the copies, I rather think we have been told.

 

 

There is a lot of mental gymnastics done to think no one in Volantis or the free cities invented the printing press yet. Must be all the booze and prostitutes running about that keeps the innovation low.  Perhaps that is a reason. The free cities libertine religious culture maybe stifles innovation. 

[Paxter Redwyne]

3 hours ago, lysmonger said:

There is a lot of mental gymnastics done to think no one in Volantis or the free cities invented the printing press yet. Must be all the booze and prostitutes running about that keeps the innovation low.  Perhaps that is a reason. The free cities libertine religious culture maybe stifles innovation. 

No mental gymnastics have to be done. GRRM made this world such that for thousands of years they did not advanced technologically.

[Maia]

On 11 December 2018 at 6:47 AM, lysmonger said:

There is a lot of mental gymnastics done to think no one in Volantis or the free cities invented the printing press yet. 

Why would any mental gymnastics be required? Late Republican and Imperial Rome was quite literate, considering, yet they didn't invent any. A cheap, no-thrills edition of a book by poet Martial cost a bit less than half of the price of a simple tunic. Admittedly, they were pretty short books, but still copyist workshops were sufficent to provide "editions" of popular works running into the thousands copies. 

Many readers of ASoIaF act like it is an inevitability that a civilization must invent firearms and printing presses at some point and proceed to capitalism, but our own history proves that to be untrue, as many sophisticated civilizations have come and gone without doing so. There is, objectively speaking, more reason to think that what happened in Europe was a fluke, rather than a prescriptive blueprint for society development.

Personally, I quite liked the inclusion of the "Caution" and the additional characterizations and glimpses of the world it provided.

[The Dragon Demands]

I seriously suspect Martin was mocking the tv show in this

[Joey Crows]

On 12/9/2018 at 3:19 AM, Jaak said:

Can you hire quills at King´s Landing?

You can hire Jonquils....

Thanks, I'll be here all week folks.