Scribes of Caution for Young Girls

[Jaak]

I suppose it does not really need spoilers - the story details are not so relevant to plot.

70 years after publication, Baelor found hundreds of copies to burn, and hundreds remained.

Gyldayn presents the identity of copyists as surmise. Listing

1. septons expelled from Faith for drunkenness, theft or fornication
2. students who left Citadel without earning chain
3. hired quills from Free Cities
4. mummers

The reason stated to limit the list is that almost the whole book is obscene and therefore neither septons nor maesters are likely to copy it.

Well, what do you think is the reason active septons and maesters would not copy it?

1. Internal belief in impropriety of writing obscenity?
2. External risk of capture?
3. Being busy at more rewarding work?

If it´s 1), then a septon who sins at drink more than the rest of Faith is willing to forgive would not thereby lose his internal faith in sinfulness of obscenity.

About 2) yes. Copying a book by handwriting takes time. Months or so.

But then if there is a risk, you should hear of people actually caught in flagranti copying Caution - in possession of a full copy original and a partial copy in progress of writing, in his handwriting.

About 3) - making a manuscript book costs. For example, in 13th century England, I´ve read estimates that the cost of parchment and ink was about equal to the cost of handwriting to copy the text on it. In a modern printed bible, I found the 4 Gospels to take up something like 125 pages, with about 45 lines on page. Estimating that it should take perhaps a month to copy, and therefore another month´s earnings to buy parchment and ink.

How do you publishers and editors measure books? Fire and Blood has numbered pages up to 706, but a lot of them are pictures not written on. And due to big letters, I counted just 35 lines on a wholly written page. How big is Caution for Young Girls supposed to be?

Anyway, for a failed septon or maester, the effort of copying a book and buying parchment is several months full time work, or rather more than that part time. Therefore, it would be important to have a prior assurance of a well-paying customer.

And note the mention of "hired quills from Free Cities".

The skill of practical literacy, in terms of being able to copy a secular book, are implied to be so rare in Westeros outside the (active and failed) septons and maesters that foreigners are significant candidates despite geographical and possibly language barriers.

Can you hire quills at King´s Landing?

[Ran]

Septons and brothers would not copy it because it was obscene and, as you say, it was months' of effort. I mean, I can imagine some more corrupt ones doing it for pay or, in a septry, just for the entertainment of it (there's plenty of naughty marginalia in monastic manuscripts, anyways), but in general, no.

The bulk of the copies must have come from scribes, and could indeed include copyists in the Free Cities who were hired to produce them because someone saw a market for it. 

[Jaak]

20 minutes ago, Ran said:

Septons and brothers would not copy it because it was obscene and, as you say, it was months' of effort. I mean, I can imagine some more corrupt ones doing it for pay or, in a septry, just for the entertainment of it (there's plenty of naughty marginalia in monastic manuscripts, anyways), but in general, no.

The bulk of the copies must have come from scribes, and could indeed include copyists in the Free Cities who were hired to produce them because someone saw a market for it. 

Months of effort applies to any type of scribes, any type of book, obscene or not. Equally applicable to Fire and Blood.

A vital part is market - and how the market ties to supply.

Yes, the fact that this book is obscene limits the supply end by making parts of otherwise available qualified labour reluctant to copy this.

A vital part of it is the step of why a customer needs two. Who for? Looking for the point of view of a corrupt and well off man owning one copy - if he has no copies, he cannot make one. If he has one, and keeps it from the sight of his lady wife and the young girls it is supposed to caution - well, he can enjoy it, and he might order his reluctant household maester or household septon to copy it, but what or who for? Why take the trouble pissing off your employee by putting on him the big task he dislikes on principle if you already have one copy?

[Ran]

Just now, Jaak said:

Months of effort applies to any type of scribes, any type of book, obscene or not. Equally applicable to Fire and Blood.

Yes, but patrons of septries and the Citadel are not going to go about asking them for copies of an obscene frippery. I do not think lords went around ordering their maesters or septons to make copies for them, by and large, either. 

The copies were being made by scribes for profit reasons -- someone was hiring them. Given the large number of books, it seems much likelier that someone organized copying of them with a profit motive in mind, which means that the Free Cities are probably the likeliest source of the bulk of the copies, especially if we suppose obscene materials like this weren't flaunted in public and would cause trouble for you if you were associated with them. You hear a merchant has a copy, but oh, he sold it? Darn... but wait, he says he'll procure you a copy, or two if you have a friend who wants one, if you have the time and the money to wait for it? Maybe he hires some failed acolyte, maybe he knows someone across the narrow sea from the book trade who can certainly arrange to produce them for a cut... and, given the demand, maybe he'd like to put a couple dozen more scribes on it as well, while he's at it, to create supply to meet demand.

 

[Lord Varys]

Gyldayn's pointless obsession with that stupid little book strongly implies most was he says about that is nonsense, anyway. He shows more interest in that silly book and gives the entire background of Coryanne Wylde - which is completely irrelevant for the Targaryen history at hand - far too much space. All that makes it quite clear that 'learned men' of every bent are obsessed with/interested in pornographic literature - or that at least Gyldayn himself likes that.

Keep in mind that Coryanne was either completely unsuccessful or whatever success she may have had lead nowhere. There was no reason to waste more than one short paragraph on the entire story, possibly only so much a footnote. The real issue between Robar Baratheon and Jaehaerys I was not Coryanne Wylde but instead his behavior during the visit on Dragonstone and his attempt to depose Jaehaerys I and crown Princess Aerea instead. That was high treason.

The only 'innocent reason' I can think of why he wasted so many costly pages on shit like that is that one of his link exams in history was about Coryanne Wylde and the book she allegedly wrote. But even that would imply that pornography is not, in fact, beneath the interests of the archmaesters of history.

And lords definitely are interested in and buy pornographic literature, too, as do maesters. Just think of Renly and Loras and of Elysar giving pornographic literature to Vaegon. It might be that they outsource this kind of thing to 'lesser scribes' and the like, but who knows what maesters do in their spare time, or what lords who are interested in pornography command them to do in their service?

[Paxter Redwyne]

Considering how little info we have on some nobles, it seems really silly how much info we have been given about Coryanne Wylde, while for example we don't even learn name of Rogar's first wife and many lords are not even mentioned by their first names and are referred as only Lord Fell, Lord Peake, etc.

[Lord Varys]

24 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Considering how little info we have on some nobles, it seems really silly how much info we have been given about Coryanne Wylde, while for example we don't even learn name of Rogar's first wife and many lords are not even mentioned by their first names and are referred as only Lord Fell, Lord Peake, etc.

That is another annoying issue.

If you look at the book from a conceptual viewpoint, it really falls apart. Aegon and his sister-wives - the most important Targaryens in history - are treated as obscure characters whereas a period like the minority of Aegon III - while interesting not exactly the most important part of Targaryen history - is covered in great detail. What kind of a historian would write a history in that way? How likely is it that historians focus more on the minority of one of the bad kings of Westeros - one whose reign is rarely mentioned at all (Aegon III) - and not on the Conqueror who founded the dynasty in Westeros - a man who is a larger than life figure and is prominently mentioned rather often even in the main series?

One could have swallowed this treatment if there had been an indication there was a point to all that - say, events farther back in time are less detailed than events closer to the present - but that's clearly not the case. The worst section of the book after the stuff on Aegon I are the later years of Jaehaerys I and, especially, the reign of Viserys I - which is basically just a collection of anecdotes serving as a prologue to the Dance. Gyldayn doesn't actually cover the reign of that man. Nowhere is this more evident than in the tendency to basically not give names to most of the characters mentioned in the text.

And the way guys are named and not named is also completely arbitrary - what's the point in giving us names on all the Hightowers in the first half of the 1st century and then not mentioning the death of Lord Martyn and how Donnel the Delayer is related to him? Or later on - not giving us the name of Otto's brother and father and how they are related to Lord Donnel. I mean, the most important Hightowers in that book were not the various Manfreds or Martyn but Otto, his brother and nephew. They had the greatest impact on Westerosi politics and House Targaryen.

It is good that TSotD was expanded, but HotD definitely should have been rewritten, not just expanded. The Great Council thing should have been part of the last chapter on Jaehaerys I whereas Viserys I should have gotten his own chapter focusing also on his reign and was done there aside from court gossip leading up to the Dance.

The book is just hopelessly imbalanced and doesn't even have a fake ending. The proper way to close it would have actually been the end of the Dance, possibly after the Aftermath chapter, not this weird arbitrary non-ending after the Regency of Aegon III. Or there should have been another 200+ added for the entire reign of Aegon III. That could have been a good ending, too, closing the book perhaps shortly after the death of the last dragon.

The issue with Coryanne Wylde is not so much the information we have on her - it is that the entire episode leads nowhere and therefore does not deserve the attention it has been given.

If there actually had been some juicy sex scene there between Coryanne, Jaehaerys and/or Alysanne then, well, this could have made some narrative sense. But the entire back story there serves as buildup and buildup and buildup and then basically nothing of consequence happens.

In a lesser way that's also true for Lord Rogar himself - the entire introductory paragraph on good men and bad there also seems to hint at on him doing something *really evil* - like planning to murder Jaehaerys or Alysanne, say - rather than just suggesting to depose him (which was high treason, too, but not necessarily all that vile).

[Ran]

I find learning the history of the text of Westeros's Fanny Hill substantially more interesting then getting the first names of various lords, for my part. It's something new in a sea of geneaological trivia. Which, I suspect, is why it's in there.

Maybe some day ya'll get Malleon's dry-as-dust book of lineages. What a banner day that would be.

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, Ran said:

I find learning the history of the text of Westeros's Fanny Hill substantially more interesting then getting the first names of various lords, for my part. It's something new in a sea of geneaological trivia. Which, I suspect, is why it's in there.

Maybe some day ya'll get Malleon's dry-as-dust book of lineages. What a banner day that would be.

Nobody wanted only lineages in there. I think I gave a pretty good illustration with the Hightower example there as to what I think the issue there is. I also understand that not all characters are important enough to warrant mentioning. But the imbalance in treating different eras arbitrarily different insofar as detail is concerned is, well, arbitrary. There is no internal or conceptual reason for this imbalance. And this mars the book on a conceptual level.

And this also goes for the mentioning of certain names. I mean, what makes Rogar Baratheon's parents and first wife less important than Alyssa Velaryon's parents? Or Alaric Stark's daughter more important than Rogar's parents? Rogar Baratheon is obviously (and objectively) a much more important historical figure than Alaric Stark.

And when George tries he has Gyldayn actually do a pretty good job at giving necessary background as he does when covering the background and history of House Peake when Unwin Peake becomes the most important political player in the Realm.

It is one thing to have the tale grow in the telling when writing those 'side bars' for TWoIaF - starting with the intention of keeping it pretty brief and then have things escalate. In an actual published book we should not be able to tell apart the oldest sections of the books from the newest sections simply by looking at the amount of detail - hence the obvious need to actually rewrite/expand the sections on the Conqueror and Viserys I to make the book more balanced. That this didn't happen doesn't exactly favor the book - I still like it for what it is, but it could have been much more.

[Ran]

It could have been much longer... but it would probably not be completed and not be published at all, OTOH, so kind of a negative to this idea of his heavily revising everything. 

The Gyldayn might possibly have far more interest in certain periods and kings, and less in others, doesn't seem so strange, however, and this is presumably the proper in-world explanation for why some get more detail than others. 

[The Grey Wolf]

Except @Lord Varys is not suggesting revising everything. Just Aegon I and Viserys I/Jaehaerys I in his later years. Truth be told I was disappointed most of the Jaehaerys I chapters focused on just the first ten years of his reign and half of them on just his minority. Furthermore, I personally found Caution to be rather creepy due to Coryanne Wylde's absurdly young age but it looks like that habitual issue is not one GRRM ever intends to fix.

[Lord Varys]

I'd say HotD was/is in need of revision or at least expansion. But this could have been done, in part at least, by merely adding more chapters rather than heavily rewriting the material that existed. That would be especially true for the Conqueror and his sisters - there would could have had another chapter on court life at the Aegonfort and on Dragonstone, say, focusing on what's known about the private lives and times of the first Targaryens.

I mean, it is glaringly obvious that Viserys I is all gossip and no governance whereas Aegon I is mostlý governance and war and little to no gossip.

With Jaehaerys I I sort of understand why their private life is no longer in the focus in the later sections on the reign, but the real blank spaces there are the grandchildren.

I honestly don't understand how Daemon can be George's 'favorite character' there considering we know much less about his character and motivation than we do know about Rhaena, Jaehaerys I, Alysanne, or even Saera, for that matter. The key to making Daemon an actual character was to shed (much) more light on his and Viserys' youth, on their relationship with each other before Viserys became king and how they got along with their father, grandparents and cousins. HotD doesn't really get to much depth in relation to his own ambitions and in what they are grounded in. Why did he want to be king? Did he know? Did he have a political agenda? We don't know - nor do we have (m)any hints in that direction.

But as I said with the entire imaginary history thing already - a good preface/foreword or epilogue could have greatly helped to explain to the reader as to why Gyldayn focused on this or that - as could have direct commentaries of Gyldayn's within the text. The man rarely gives his own opinion there - and part of the fun could have been to have him have unorthodox views on various kings and their character, etc.

Him not focusing on the Conqueror could have been explained by his admission that he had too read and study far too much about the boring and unremarkable reign of Aegon the Dragon, this man who is utterly undeserving of his great place in history which he only got thanks to the praise of lickspittle singers, etc., and therefore is not going to give this man any spotlight in his own history of the Targaryen dynasty. But as it stands Gyldayn essentially lists the Conqueror as the second greatest Targaryen king - a fact that's not really reflected by the book he wrote. And this is pretty hard to sell from a conceptual viewpoint.

Does anybody expect Henry VI's minority to cover more pages in a history on the Plantagenet kings than the reigns of Henry II, Edward I or III? How likely is it that the William the Conqueror features less prominently in a general history on the Norman kings than his own sons? The reviews of such books would greatly reflect such imbalances and ask/demand to know why those decisions were made - and any author looking for a good review would actually explain in the work as to why he or she was going down that unorthodox road. But Gyldayn doesn't do anything of that sort.

[The Grey Wolf]

As far as cousins go it doesn't help at all that J and A only had four grandchildren, which makes that line about "important matches outside the royal family" complete and utter BS.

[The Grey Wolf]

In fact, both J and A's children as well as their grandchildren should have gotten their own individual chapters.

[Paxter Redwyne]

18 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

In fact, both J and A's children as well as their grandchildren should have gotten their own individual chapters.

Probably GRRM thought that Coryanne Wylde story was more important, heh.

[lysmonger]

13 hours ago, Ran said:

It could have been much longer... but it would probably not be completed and not be published at all, OTOH, so kind of a negative to this idea of his heavily revising everything. 

The Gyldayn might possibly have far more interest in certain periods and kings, and less in others, doesn't seem so strange, however, and this is presumably the proper in-world explanation for why some get more detail than others. 

Im assuming the edited stuff was completely superflous and doesn't ruin the mystery or foreshadowing of anything. 

Sometimes I feel it is too bare, and there is more of a story to tell. I'm assuming there is a lot more "go figure out what I mean by this" GRRM mystery. 

The tawdry rumors of a ruined noble women is great. Ive read up on those manuscripts in actual history.

[Ran]

A bit of research online brings to mind a couple of useful antecedents. I had started by wondering about Boccacio's Decameron, which had some erotic passages, and which was widely copied in Italy in the 14th and 15th century. This led to then looking at the Wikipedia article on manuscript culture and it discusses the rise of secular book-copying workshops, and also the development in Italy of a system called pecia which was used by universities to make pieces of manuscripts readily available... but also provides a model for how rapid reproduction could be done.

To me, workshops like this would explain the (relatively) wide availability of a popular, obscene text in Westeros. It seems hard to imagine mass production of the Caution for Young Girls by workshops of scribes could happen under the Faith's nose in Oldtown, but perhaps one or two such groups could do something there, failed students and acolytes alike, hidden away in some nook and keeping it on the down-low. But the Free Cities seems a likelier place for it, not least because they appear to be more secular (Norvos excepted) and also more broadly literate.

So, yeah, I think Gyldayn's reference to "hired quills" accounts for the majority of the copies, and if workshops were turning it out they were doing it on demand from clients or speculatively on the assumption they'd be able to make a profit.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Ran said:

A bit of research online brings to mind a couple of useful antecedents. I had started by wondering about Boccacio's Decameron, which had some erotic passages, and which was widely copied in Italy in the 14th and 15th century. This led to then looking at the Wikipedia article on manuscript culture and it discusses the rise of secular book-copying workshops, and also the development in Italy of a system called pecia which was used by universities to make pieces of manuscripts readily available... but also provides a model for how rapid reproduction could be done.

The problem with such comparisons is that the vast continent of Westeros has exactly one university and basically no cities and only a few known towns (although there must be more of those).

It seems clear that in Oldtown there would be scribes of all sorts - maesters, septons/septas, acolytes, independent scribes, mummers, etc. - but that's not the case for most of the Westerosi castle culture.

4 hours ago, Ran said:

To me, workshops like this would explain the (relatively) wide availability of a popular, obscene text in Westeros. It seems hard to imagine mass production of the Caution for Young Girls by workshops of scribes could happen under the Faith's nose in Oldtown, but perhaps one or two such groups could do something there, failed students and acolytes alike, hidden away in some nook and keeping it on the down-low. But the Free Cities seems a likelier place for it, not least because they appear to be more secular (Norvos excepted) and also more broadly literate.

Not sure why the Free Cities would copy texts written in the Common Tongue in a significant number. Surely they would more or less entertain their own audiences with lively stories about, say, Racallio Ryndoon or other such colorful people?

Coryanne Wylde's story seems to have been written down after her return to Oldtown, reflecting, at least insofar as the moral of the story is concerned, the values of the Faith. That makes it quite clear that the original version of this text - if one such existed - was actually written by Coryanne herself or by a septon/septa she told her story. That this was later greatly expanded on in later manuscripts and the like is clear, but who did that and for what reason is pretty much up to speculation.

It is also by no means clear how corrupt both the Faith and the Citadel actually are. Is Gyldayn's dismissal of pornography in any way supported by actual bans and laws, or does he just try to paint himself as a serious academic (if he were one such he would never have mentioned Coryanne Wylde's story in his book)? We don't know.

The only confirmed book banner and burner we know at this point is King Baelor the Blessed, and we'll have to wait and see what exactly motivates him and his followers to do this kind of thing.

And thinking about that - I remember back in the day asking George as to why Baelor never restored the Faith Militant - and that's an even greater question now with the Doctrine of Exceptionalism a tenet of the Faith. Baelor could have restored it without any risk to his own dynasty and their marriage customs, and it is very odd that septons and septas and faithful he surrounded himself with didn't convince him to do that.

[The Grey Wolf]

@Lord Varys

Baelor I was a pacifist.

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

@Lord Varys

Baelor I was a pacifist.

I know that he is supposed to be a pacifist. That was George's answer to my question back then. But TWoIaF also included that notion that Baelor may have planned to forcefully convert the Northmen and the Ironborn - something that would have worked much better with a restored Faith Militant helping with the forced conversions (assuming there was any truth to those claims).

More importantly, the traditional role of the Faith Militant was not exactly to wage wars and the like - but to protect the High Septon, the Faith, and the faithful. King Baelor should have had essentially no issue with the Stars coming back to protect innocent travelers on the roads of the Seven Kingdoms, no? He must have know like anyone else in Westeros that outlaws and brigands and robber knights don't go away. And if I can come up with such arguments explaining why it was a good idea to restore the Faith Militant it is effectively impossible that the High Septon - especially the one who grew very influential at Baelor's court, prior to Baelor's weirdo High Septons - and the Most Devout would not have been able to think of that. Why on earth would Baelor not follow such arguments?

In fact, Baelor should have restored especially the Warrior's Sons and then put pressure on his knights to join the order considering that swords in the service of the Seven would be much better swords than knights warring and slaughtering in service of their lords.

And Baelor burning books also implies that he wasn't exactly as peaceful and nice as one might think he was. Pacifists usually also don't wage wars against books, do they?