The Prophecy Glitch

[Faera]

So, since @kissdbyfire tagged me the other week I definitely bookmarked this to come back to later once my Christmas holidays officially began from work. As always I am fashionably late so I apologise for that, @Curled Finger, m'dear friend. 

On 12/9/2018 at 5:21 PM, Curled Finger said:

Why is prophecy such a big deal among readers?   

I tried to write a response about ten times before scrubbing the whole lot because in reality my feelings about this subject is both complex and simple. The reason I feel so many people enjoy drawing on prophecy because a part of us all want to guess at what might happen next in the story. Like we are ourselves are little-Jojens, Ghosts of High Heart or Maggy the Frogs. George R. R. Martin likes to drop hints about what he is about to reveal, almost in a predictable pattern. The subtle allusion, the stronger hint and then the outright revelation. The result is all of us nerdy fans pouring over the thousands of pages he has written to find the secret meaning behind it all, even when there isn't one or - or reflection - the hint was bloody obvious. Take Jon being Lyanna's son. He hasn't officially revealed that within the books yet the countless hints fans have uncovered mean we are all but certain it will happen. So, we have become our own little prophets.

On 12/9/2018 at 5:21 PM, Curled Finger said:

"Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy." Marwyn turned his head and spat a gob of red phlegm onto the floor. "Not that I would trust it. Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time." He chewed a bit. "Still . . ."  AFFC Samwell V

This might even work as a good analogy for GRRM's writing, too. You can enjoy being right, but there will always be a cruel twist to it. In the case of Jon, it will no doubt be painful for him to discover the true circumstances of his birth and the fate of his mother would hurt, especially if he takes the story of Lyanna's death at face value -- a child of rape who killed one of the people the man he loved and believed was his father to come into this world. Even if that is not the case, even if there is some create plan Lyanna and Rhaegar were both in on or there was a sappy love story, the rub comes if Jon never realises that. Even more likely though is if we as readers discover the truth about Jon, but he never does. That is the rub, or in this case the "bite".

Same with any prediction made about "who is Azor Ahai?" - for all intents and purposes people can made a strong case for Dany as well as argue that she will come over on her dragons and be this promised princess. In actuality, people like Aemon might well be living a fools dream because the most obvious candidate is the most likely to disappoint us. The bite in Dany's tale might well be that her destructive nature will always get the best of her. There are some who believe that Dany might actually have the makings of an excellent anti-villain, the full-fire to parallel the Others full-ice, with everyone else trying to survive without full-blown destruction. I'm not sure trading all of ice for all of fire is a good thing; Dany's dragons need to be seen for what they are, as tools of destruction. That might be the bite to her tale. Heck, it might be the bite in the whole believe that Azor Ahai will "save" us all - that AA is just as much a danger to balance as the Others are.

On 12/9/2018 at 5:21 PM, Curled Finger said:

So X character is a throw back to some long forgotten Norse god or Aztec king?   Although very interesting and educational, I'm not invested in these sorts of parallels.  They don't matter in my understanding of the story or its unraveling.   It's far more satisfying when I can identify an historical ASOIAF character or event in the current tale.   For my time and effort, Brienne is far more interesting than Lyanna.   Brienne is alive and kicking and I can pick up on real intel regarding her adventures far better than whatever Lyanna had going.   Doesn't mean Lyanna isn't interesting, she just resides in a place I can't really put the effort in for.   Her story will be told if Martin deems it so.   He has given me Brienne and she is fascinating on a level Lyanna just can't be to me.   

I agree completely. While I am certainly impressed by people finding and making the allusions between characters in mythology or historical parallels it goes a little over my head when it comes to using it as a compass for how the story might play out or "buck the trend" by doing the exact opposite. Additionally, I agree about a character like Brienne being more interesting to investigate and talk about than Lyanna, primarily because Lyanna is "done". Her death is a cornerstone for several characters - Ned, Robert and possibly Jon and Howland (when he finally appears) - as well as a catalyst for the events in how the established monarchy of the Targaryens were deposed. She does have a character but it can only be retold through the eyes of those who knew her in life, and how history has shaped her. Lyanna is a symbol more than a person and half the tragedy of her character, as well as that of women like her - Elia and Rhaella - is that they each died with their stories silent.

Brienne is in some ways a "what if" tale for a woman in Lyanna's situation. Her story "I want to be able to carry a sword" but her father refusing her juxtaposes nicely with Brienne and her father. More so than Arya, in some ways. Ned might have allowed Arya to learn how to use a sword but he still expected her to be a lady, too. Selwyn appears to have started with that attitude but eventually seems to have given his daughter everything she could need to be the knight she wanted to be even at the cost of his own legacy. True, he's not exactly Oberyn Martell or Howland Reed, two examples of men who not only taught their daughters to fight but might have even expected it of them as part of their culture, but in the bog-standard expectations of nobility outside the Neck and Dorne what Selwyn did give his daughter as "fighting chance". There is a painful stigma that Brienne has faced but she tries her best to stay absolutely true to herself, even when she's uncertain of who that person is.

So, to tie this back into "prophecy", Jaime's weirwood stump dream the burning swords have been analysed like crazy for what they could symbolise. Much of the descriptions and imagery in the dream of a bear and escaping a pit-like place appears later in the waking world when Jaime returns to save Brienne. However, "The flames will burn so long as you live [...] When they die, so must you." has been a focal point of "what do the flames mean" - as if there has to be a single answer or hidden meaning. This is sort of like a mini prophecy in itself even though it exists only in a dream.

[Curled Finger]

7 hours ago, Faera said:

So, since @kissdbyfire tagged me the other week I definitely bookmarked this to come back to later once my Christmas holidays officially began from work. As always I am fashionably late so I apologise for that, @Curled Finger, m'dear friend. 

I tried to write a response about ten times before scrubbing the whole lot because in reality my feelings about this subject is both complex and simple. The reason I feel so many people enjoy drawing on prophecy because a part of us all want to guess at what might happen next in the story. Like we are ourselves are little-Jojens, Ghosts of High Heart or Maggy the Frogs. George R. R. Martin likes to drop hints about what he is about to reveal, almost in a predictable pattern. The subtle allusion, the stronger hint and then the outright revelation. The result is all of us nerdy fans pouring over the thousands of pages he has written to find the secret meaning behind it all, even when there isn't one or - or reflection - the hint was bloody obvious. Take Jon being Lyanna's son. He hasn't officially revealed that within the books yet the countless hints fans have uncovered mean we are all but certain it will happen. So, we have become our own little prophets.

This might even work as a good analogy for GRRM's writing, too. You can enjoy being right, but there will always be a cruel twist to it. In the case of Jon, it will no doubt be painful for him to discover the true circumstances of his birth and the fate of his mother would hurt, especially if he takes the story of Lyanna's death at face value -- a child of rape who killed one of the people the man he loved and believed was his father to come into this world. Even if that is not the case, even if there is some create plan Lyanna and Rhaegar were both in on or there was a sappy love story, the rub comes if Jon never realises that. Even more likely though is if we as readers discover the truth about Jon, but he never does. That is the rub, or in this case the "bite".

Same with any prediction made about "who is Azor Ahai?" - for all intents and purposes people can made a strong case for Dany as well as argue that she will come over on her dragons and be this promised princess. In actuality, people like Aemon might well be living a fools dream because the most obvious candidate is the most likely to disappoint us. The bite in Dany's tale might well be that her destructive nature will always get the best of her. There are some who believe that Dany might actually have the makings of an excellent anti-villain, the full-fire to parallel the Others full-ice, with everyone else trying to survive without full-blown destruction. I'm not sure trading all of ice for all of fire is a good thing; Dany's dragons need to be seen for what they are, as tools of destruction. That might be the bite to her tale. Heck, it might be the bite in the whole believe that Azor Ahai will "save" us all - that AA is just as much a danger to balance as the Others are.

I agree completely. While I am certainly impressed by people finding and making the allusions between characters in mythology or historical parallels it goes a little over my head when it comes to using it as a compass for how the story might play out or "buck the trend" by doing the exact opposite. Additionally, I agree about a character like Brienne being more interesting to investigate and talk about than Lyanna, primarily because Lyanna is "done". Her death is a cornerstone for several characters - Ned, Robert and possibly Jon and Howland (when he finally appears) - as well as a catalyst for the events in how the established monarchy of the Targaryens were deposed. She does have a character but it can only be retold through the eyes of those who knew her in life, and how history has shaped her. Lyanna is a symbol more than a person and half the tragedy of her character, as well as that of women like her - Elia and Rhaella - is that they each died with their stories silent.

Brienne is in some ways a "what if" tale for a woman in Lyanna's situation. Her story "I want to be able to carry a sword" but her father refusing her juxtaposes nicely with Brienne and her father. More so than Arya, in some ways. Ned might have allowed Arya to learn how to use a sword but he still expected her to be a lady, too. Selwyn appears to have started with that attitude but eventually seems to have given his daughter everything she could need to be the knight she wanted to be even at the cost of his own legacy. True, he's not exactly Oberyn Martell or Howland Reed, two examples of men who not only taught their daughters to fight but might have even expected it of them as part of their culture, but in the bog-standard expectations of nobility outside the Neck and Dorne what Selwyn did give his daughter as "fighting chance". There is a painful stigma that Brienne has faced but she tries her best to stay absolutely true to herself, even when she's uncertain of who that person is.

So, to tie this back into "prophecy", Jaime's weirwood stump dream the burning swords have been analysed like crazy for what they could symbolise. Much of the descriptions and imagery in the dream of a bear and escaping a pit-like place appears later in the waking world when Jaime returns to save Brienne. However, "The flames will burn so long as you live [...] When they die, so must you." has been a focal point of "what do the flames mean" - as if there has to be a single answer or hidden meaning. This is sort of like a mini prophecy in itself even though it exists only in a dream.

Occasionally late, but always worth the wait @Faera.   I enjoyed your reply immensely.    Yes, I have wanted to be a little Jojen or GOHH more than once and few know as well as you how much I do enjoy trying to figure things out.   Overall, I've tried very hard to get symbolism and it's pretty much hopeless.   But I think at least I derive from this discussion, that I don't really need to understand it, nor the prophecies.   The dreams are completely open to my interpretation at no less value than anyone else's.   A Song of Ice and Fire is so well crafted that even a person as interpretation challenged as me can figure things out with real clues within the story if not from the mystic elements.   I will say that my quest to better understand some of the external influences in ASOIAF have led me to some wonderful reading adventures.   Thanks for checking in.   Let us know if you ever figure out what that madness about the flames going out so long as Jamie lives means!