Illyrio's fate foreshadowed

[sweetsunray]

Fire & Blood included a particular death scene that has been twice mentioned in aDwD before.

Quote

Above him loomed a grotesque fat man with a forked yellow beard, holding a wooden mallet and an iron chisel. His bedrobe was large enough to serve as a tourney pavilion, but its loosely knotted belt had come undone, exposing a huge white belly and a pair of heavy breasts that sagged like sacks of suet covered with coarse yellow hair. He reminded Tyrion of a dead sea cow that had once washed up in the caverns under Casterly Rock. [...] Illyrio was reclining on a padded couch, gobbling hot peppers and pearl onions from a wooden bowl. His brow was dotted with beads of sweat, his pig's eyes shining above his fat cheeks. Jewels danced when he moved his hands; onyx and opal, tiger's eye and tourmaline, ruby, amethyst, sapphire, emerald, jet and jade, a black diamond, and a green pearl. I could live for years on his rings, Tyrion mused, though I'd need a cleaver to claim them. (aDwD, Tyrion 1)

The corsairs had come aboard in the darkness before the dawn, as the Meadowlark was anchored off the coast of the Disputed Lands. The crew had beaten them off, at the cost of twelve lives. Afterward the sailors stripped the dead corsairs of boots and belts and weapons, divvied up their purses, and yanked gemstones from their ears and rings from their fingers. One of the corpses was so fat that the ship's cook had to cut his fingers off with a meat cleaver to claim his rings. It took three Meadowlarks to roll the body into the sea. The other pirates were chucked in after him, without a word of prayer or ceremony.  (aDwD, Quentyn 1)

After ten years in service to the Iron Throne, Lord Rego had grown quite stout, and no longer chose to ride. Instead he moved from manse to castle and back again in an ornate gilded palanquin. Unwisely, his route took him through the reeking heart of Flea Bottom, the foulest and most lawless district of the city. On that dire day, a dozen of Fle Bottom's less savory denizens were chasing a piglet down an alley when they chanced to come upon Lord Rego moving through the streets. Some were drunk and all were hungry - the piglet had escaped them - and the sight of the Pentoshi enraged them, for to a man they held the mast of coin to blame for the high cost of braed. One wore a sword. Three had knives. The rest snatched up stones and sticks and swarmed the palanquin, driving off Lord Rego's bearers and spilling his lordship onto the ground. Onlookers said he screamed for help in words none of them could understand. When his lordship raised his hands to ward off the blows raining down on him, gold and gemstones glittered on every finger, and the attack grew more frenzied still. A woman shouted, "He's Pentoshi. Them's the bastards brung the Shivers here." One of the men pried a stone up from the king's newly cobbled street and brought it down upon Lord Rego's head again and again, until only a red mash of blood and bone and brains remained. Thus died the Lord of Air, his skull crushed by one of the very cobblestones he had helped the king lay down. Even then, his assailants were not done with him. Before they ran, they ripped off his fine clothes and cut off all his fingers to lay claim to his ring. (Fire and Blood, The Long Reign, p 282)

Sure, people will take rich belongings of a dead man: but thrice an overweight man, twice a Pentosi, twice a cheesemonger, twice a moneymaker for king/queen, twice the sea, twice a man in a palanquin. I already suspected those two paragraphs in aDwD might have been foreshadowing of Illyrio's death, but thrice is a charm, no?

[Paxter Redwyne]

In terms of character, Illyrio and Rego are quite different.

[chrisdaw]

Seems solid. The cobblestone Rego helped the king lay being used to kill him could point to Illyrio's own plans to help make a king coming back to bite him on the ass and being what gets him killed. Being blamed for the Shivers might point to his team, team Aegon, being blamed for a greyscale outbreak. And maybe for Illyrio becoming master of coin.

[Lion of the West]

Seems very interesting and I personally can't wait for Illyrio to get his due.

Good perception and thanks for bringing this to our attention @sweetsunray

[Lollygag]

I've not read F&B so thanks for bringing up this Lord Rego fellow.

Crackpot surely, but it’s speculated in the link below that this may be a hint as to what's already happened to Illyrio.

Gerion Lannister was perhaps the corsair who killed the real Illyrio and took his place (he wears a ruby and follows R’hllor). This Lord Rego also has a lot of Lannister symbols like pigs/sacrifice, gold, rings (hair in curls/ringlets, whores, Tywin’s gold ring eyes) coins, fat like Tytos, and implied shit.

 

It was formed sort of by consensus with @Lady Barbrey and @Alexis-something-Rose making the corsair connection and gets hashed out over several posts. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

7 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Sure, people will take rich belongings of a dead man: but thrice an overweight man, twice a Pentosi, twice a cheesemonger, twice a moneymaker for king/queen, twice the sea, twice a man in a palanquin. I already suspected those two paragraphs in aDwD might have been foreshadowing of Illyrio's death, but thrice is a charm, no?

I think Illyrio bit the dust in ADwD in the Quentyn chapters. 

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

In terms of character, Illyrio and Rego are quite different.

That's hard to tell. Illyrio's character is written much like Rego's, able to laugh and smile at suspicions thrown his way. If we didn't have the scene we saw between Illyrio and Varys witnessed by Arya in aGoT, then Illyrio is very much like Rego.

[Lollygag]

27 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think Illyrio bit the dust in ADwD in the Quentyn chapters. 

Illyrio/Varys is one of the big unanswered questions Game-wise going back to the very beginning of the series. I'm not one who thinks we'll get every little thing answered, but Illyrio seems unlikely to be one of those things. It'd be like knocking off LF leaving the explanation that he was just greedy or Varys being knocked off leaving the reader with the motivation that he was about some sort of unspecified Targ/Blackfyre whatever thing without bothering to flesh any of that out. Dany's, Arya's and Tyrion's chapters with him all seem to be leading somewhere. He's just written with too much work to be left hanging. Unlike with Ned, Cat, Robb, Tywin and other big character deaths, this wouldn't feel organic to the story.

 

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Seems solid. The cobblestone Rego helped the king lay being used to kill him could point to Illyrio's own plans to help make a king coming back to bite him on the ass and being what gets him killed. Being blamed for the Shivers might point to his team, team Aegon, being blamed for a greyscale outbreak. And maybe for Illyrio becoming master of coin.

Yes, Illyrio already helped a king and a queen financially and materially. Without having that official title or position in King's Landing, he already is a "master of coin" to both Dany and Aegon.

Now, I do think that Selmy already set the chain of events in motion that imo will lead to Illyrio's death - Selmy's agreement with the Tattered Prince to take Pentos for the latter. And I suspect he dies before reaching Westeros actually, or even leaving Pentos. Even if Aegon is on a blitzkrieg, I doubt Illyrio will sail for Westeros before King's Landing is secured. 

Though Dany herself hasn't agreed to taking Pentos, Selmy has. Dany won't be heading West too soon, nor rejoining Selmy and Tyrion all that fast. Meanwhile corpses of people who died of the Pale Mare have been flown all over Mereen, with even Selmy not sure anymore whether Dany lives or not. I expect significant pressure on Dany's team in Mereen to move at least on to Volantis, perhaps with some characters being sent into the Dothraki Sea to find Dany. And of course there's Tyrion's info on Ilyrio and Aegon he can share with a "fire and blood" Dany, far more willing to help the Tattered Prince in taking Pentos.

Anyway, imo either he dies in Pentos during a conquering of that city by the Tattered Prince and any Unsullied or Dothraki sent along to Pentos in support of the Tattered Prince, or at Sea while fleeing from Pentos as soon as he learns of the Tattered Prince moving for Pentos and Aegon about to secure King's Landing, without neither Dany or Aegeon ever able to clear up what they need to know from Illyrio's own mouth. Aegon's identity imo will remain purposefully unclear. I'm not convinced in the way George wrote the arc with Aegon that George wants the reader to have the definite answer whether he's Illyrio's son or the real Aegon. George gave us just enough text to suggest that Illyrio might be Aegon's father, while also portraying Varys in the aDwD epilogue as believing Aegon is the real deal. And he consistently wrote both characters as having on the one hand sincere motivations as well as shady on the other, without ever tipping the scale too much to one side. And for four books George has refused to clear it up indefinitely, as if he wants them to remain ambiguous.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think Illyrio bit the dust in ADwD in the Quentyn chapters. 

As in you think that the corsair that Quentyn witnessed being thrown into the sea is Illyrio?

[sweetsunray]

3 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Illyrio/Varys is one of the big unanswered questions Game-wise going back to the very beginning of the series. I'm not one who thinks we'll get every little thing answered, but Illyrio seems unlikely to be one of those things. It'd be like knocking off LF leaving the explanation that he was just greedy or Varys being knocked off leaving the reader with the motivation that he was about some sort of unspecified Targ/Blackfyre whatever thing without bothering to flesh any of that out. Dany's, Arya's and Tyrion's chapters with him all seem to be leading somewhere. He's just written with too much work to be left hanging. Unlike with Ned, Cat, Robb, Tywin and other big character deaths, this wouldn't feel organic to the story.

 

I see him being written in a way exactly to leave the mystery hanging, always just enough there for the readers who believe Illyrio to have Targ sympathies to see a little bit of more evidence for it, while at the same time giving the readers who believe Illyrio is pulling the biggest con ever just a little more of that. George gives more information, but each time without tipping the balance. And exactly those chapters were required to keep that "sea cow" balancing on a tight rope.

The suggestion in Tyrion's chapters that he might be Aegon's father, and how he is broken hearted of not having the opportunity to see Aegon in aDwD makes for George's beloved bittersweetness if Illyrio never ever gets the chance to see Aegon again. If Illyrio is the actual father, and used his son to pull a long con, then such a fate would be well deserved. Just as well from Dany's POV it would be a well deserved fate once she learns from Tyrion that Illyrio sheltered Aegon for all of his life, while never doing so for Viserys and her, for keeping them separate of her possible nephew. Reminds me of MMD.

I don't even believe George will want to resolve the question of Aegon's identity. He has regularly built in ambuigity in how much a Targ is trueborn or not. Almost every generation of Targs includes one of them possibly having been born through some affair. Heck, we even have this ambiguity with the sons of Aegon the Conquerer, on both his sisters. And then when you have known bastards, he writes them as getting ambiguous gifts from their Targ parent, such as Daemon Blackfyre receiving the sword Blackfyre. George has consistently never resolved this ambiguity, but instead kept it going. And imo he does this on purpose, because ultimately the very first message George had for Dany (and the reader) was the fact that a trueborn heir is not necessarily the best person you want as king. It is not bastardy or being trueborn that makes for a good leader. Hence, he does not want us to have a definite answer on Aegon's identity, and as a consequence he must leave the motives of both his benefacrors as ambigupus.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

45 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

As in you think that the corsair that Quentyn witnessed being thrown into the sea is Illyrio?

I do. And it's not necessarily because Illyrio is a corsair or anything like that. I think it's easier for him to pay corsairs to take him where he wants without fear of falling between their hands.

Cherish that thought, my fat friend. One day we will carve those words upon your crypt. "We should be aboard that galley," the dwarf said. "The fastest way to Volantis is by sea."

"The sea is hazardous," replied Illyrio. "Autumn is a season rife with storms, and pirates still make their dens upon the Stepstones and venture forth to prey on honest men. It would never do for my little friend to fall into such hands."

I think Illyrio was headed to Volantis because traveling by sea is still the quickest way to get there. He was traveling incognito (or as incognito as a man with his size can manage) after dropping Tyrion off with Duck and Haldon to see Triarch Nyessos. He was paying him off to stay out of the war against Meereen and Dany and something went very wrong there. The guy Illyrio was trying to buy off is the one who has turned his back on him and doing exactly what Illyrio did not want him to do. We don't really know if Nyessos ever received his bribes, but I think it's a minor detail that might be important. The obvious reason Nyessos might have turned his cloak is because the Yunkishmen could have just paid him more than Illyrio did. I just think there might be more to this.

 

I also think that the Tattered Prince is the Blackfyre (which you know, irony since he and Barry might end up working together to take Pentos) and I think that Elia is Septa Lemore, so you know, it's all very tenuous at best.

[Lollygag]

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I see him being written in a way exactly to leave the mystery hanging, always just enough there for the readers who believe Illyrio to have Targ sympathies to see a little bit of more evidence for it, while at the same time giving the readers who believe Illyrio is pulling the biggest con ever just a little more of that. George gives more information, but each time without tipping the balance. And exactly those chapters were required to keep that "sea cow" balancing on a tight rope.

The suggestion in Tyrion's chapters that he might be Aegon's father, and how he is broken hearted of not having the opportunity to see Aegon in aDwD makes for George's beloved bittersweetness if Illyrio never ever gets the chance to see Aegon again. If Illyrio is the actual father, and used his son to pull a long con, then such a fate would be well deserved. Just as well from Dany's POV it would be a well deserved fate once she learns from Tyrion that Illyrio sheltered Aegon for all of his life, while never doing so for Viserys and her, for keeping them separate of her possible nephew. Reminds me of MMD.

I don't even believe George will want to resolve the question of Aegon's identity. He has regularly built in ambuigity in how much a Targ is trueborn or not. Almost every generation of Targs includes one of them possibly having been born through some affair. Heck, we even have this ambiguity with the sons of Aegon the Conquerer, on both his sisters. And then when you have known bastards, he writes them as getting ambiguous gifts from their Targ parent, such as Daemon Blackfyre receiving the sword Blackfyre. George has consistently never resolved this ambiguity, but instead kept it going. And imo he does this on purpose, because ultimately the very first message George had for Dany (and the reader) was the fact that a trueborn heir is not necessarily the best person you want as king. It is not bastardy or being trueborn that makes for a good leader. Hence, he does not want us to have a definite answer on Aegon's identity, and as a consequence he must leave the motives of both his benefacrors as ambigupus.

 

It seems almost universally assumed that Illyrio is a Blackfyre and Aegon is his son, but there's little actual evidence for this unless I've missed it. Also, Illyrio has been around since the beginning of the series which isn't the case with the Blackfyres. Either Illyrio was retconned to be a Blackfyre, or he's something else. Mysteries are only interesting if we know enough to form a picture that we can't quite make out which draws us in. It doesn't work if all we have is closer to a void. At this rate, it seems most people are quite confused as to what he's about as it just doesn't add up.

Some characters like Bloodraven and Aegon remaining mysterious would work. We know enough about BR (the real mystery with him seems to lie more with the CotF anyhow) and Aegon isn't exactly the most interesting character and we know what his role will be. But the likes of Illyrio, LF, Varys, Mance, Doran and others who are something like the Wizard behind the curtain, the big cogs in the machine, their demise without any explanation would amount to plot holes.

Just my impression from the forum, but a lot of folks are going to upset if Illyrio and something of his role in the Game doesn't get some better explanation.

 

 

 

[chrisdaw]

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The suggestion in Tyrion's chapters that he might be Aegon's father, and how he is broken hearted of not having the opportunity to see Aegon in aDwD makes for George's beloved bittersweetness if Illyrio never ever gets the chance to see Aegon again. If Illyrio is the actual father, and used his son to pull a long con, then such a fate would be well deserved.

I think Illyrio seeing Aegon's fall/death and knowing it was because he played the game of thrones with Aegon would be the most fitting thing. I would have him outliving Aegon.

[sweetsunray]

Well, I

56 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

 

It seems almost universally assumed that Illyrio is a Blackfyre and Aegon is his son, but there's little actual evidence for this unless I've missed it. Also, Illyrio has been around since the beginning of the series which isn't the case with the Blackfyres. Either Illyrio was retconned to be a Blackfyre, or he's something else. Mysteries are only interesting if we know enough to form a picture that we can't quite make out which draws us in. It doesn't work if all we have is closer to a void. At this rate, it seems most people are quite confused as to what he's about as it just doesn't add up.

Some characters like Bloodraven and Aegon remaining mysterious would work. We know enough about BR (the real mystery with him seems to lie more with the CotF anyhow) and Aegon isn't exactly the most interesting character and we know what his role will be. But the likes of Illyrio, LF, Varys, Mance, Doran and others who are something like the Wizard behind the curtain, the big cogs in the machine, their demise without any explanation would amount to plot holes.

Just my impression from the forum, but a lot of folks are going to upset if Illyrio and something of his role in the Game doesn't get some better explanation.

 

The evidence for Illyrio being a Blackfyre is rather non-existent imo. Cherries? They're used by George in the sexual sense: as in popping cherries, especially in the series of stories of Egg. The Targ words versus Blackfyre words? We don't know what the Blackfyre words are, and the claim about it is basically an invention, contradicted by Dany herself. Meanwhile F&B made a point of Rego saying that Pentoshi are a mixture of people, including Valyrians, explaining why Illyrio as a youth might have looks comparable to Lyseni.

The only argument that requires an answer is the Golden Company, but that you can find in the history of the Golden Company itself and the responses with the Golden Company commanders themselves: over time and after Bittersteel started to veer away more and more over time from their initial purpose, especially when they followed Maelys. And in aDwD they had been waiting for the go ahead to join Viserys or Dany, actual Targs. So, no I don't think Illyrio is a Blackfyre and that the Golden Company even cares anymore about Blackfyres. Nor do I think Varys a Blackfyre. I consider Illyrio's wife Serra to be a likely descendant of Saera Targaryen.

But the text suggests or implies that Illyrio might be Aegon's father: there is the statue of his youth, his sentimental story about Serra, and his sentimentality in wanting to see Aegon in particular. Either it's a red herring or he is the boy's father. But aDwD at least tries to plant the seed of Illyrio having fatherly feelings towards Aegon in the reader's mind. It's not even symbolical. 

Many readers expect there to be a Blackfyre, and because of the above they think Illyrio or Varys are it, often to give them motivation. But Varys's motivation works as business partner just as well. I do think there's a Blackfyre, but my suspicion is on Daario, who actually is from Tyrosh. And I do think that George will reveal Daario's background story, whatever it is.

As for what the forum members hope for: I don't consider that much of an argument for which mystery George will clarify or not. Because of the World book many people have hoped to learn what was in the letter to Aegon the Conquerer that made him decide to have a stalemate peace with Dorne. All the hope was aimed at getting the answer in F&B, where George made it very clear we'll never get the answer to that.

[sweetsunray]

50 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

I think Illyrio seeing Aegon's fall/death and knowing it was because he played the game of thrones with Aegon would be the most fitting thing. I would have him outliving Aegon.

It depends on what you consider Illyrio needs to be most punished for.

George has said that he tends to write his characters as being torn between what the heart wants and what the mind considers best (even if it comes from a place of greed).

Let us for a moment consider Illyrio to be Aegon's father, with Serra as the mother. At the time of Aegon's birth,  Illyrio was already rich and powerful. Even as a widower, he could have lived a satisfactory wealthy life raising his son in Pentos, see him wed, etc... That Illyrio has the innate abilities to love and care for people is revealed in the story on how he stood up for Varys when they were kids, clings to the memory of Serra and is almost heartbrokenly disappointed when he learns he won't be seeing Aegon. In this scenario, Illyrio broke his own heart basically to get a son on the Iron Throne, using the Targ-Baratheon feud opportunistically for his son's imagined benefit (not actually his own benefit). Illyrio sacrificed his own father-son relationship, telling himself he was doing it for Aegon, for all those years. When he takes Tyrion to Aegon, he hopes to indulge himself - to see Aegon off to his journey that he expects to lead to ascension of the IT, as well as gratify his heart and eyes to see his son a grown man. 

He is explicitly denied this chance on the latter in aDwD.

Your scenario would in certain ways be a gratifying punishment, but mostly focuses on punishing Illyrio's ambition and greed. But I think that the "heart" of the matter is that Illyrio is increasingly desiring to see and have some type of relationship with his son. And in that sense, his dying moments of regret at having denied  himself the chance to be father to his son in my proposed scenario is devestating all on its own. Either would work, but I suspect that George tries to portray Illyrio's humanity too, and not just that of an over-ambitious man. Denying Illyrio to ever see Aegon again through death would make Illyrio's death scene almost as poignant and sad to the reader as Joffrey clawing at his throat. If Aegon dies before Illyrio, then this shifts the focus entirely to "nah-nah-nah-nah-nah-na your kid died for nothing, evil man".

IIRC George does not tend to do that with any of his characters. Tywin gets his due, but never having the incest of his twins confirmed for example, and show us Tywin at his most vulnerable, on the privy, never to witness his legacy crumble by the hands of his corrupted daughter.

[Lollygag]

9 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, I

The evidence for Illyrio being a Blackfyre is rather non-existent imo. Cherries? They're used by George in the sexual sense: as in popping cherries, especially in the series of stories of Egg. The Targ words versus Blackfyre words? We don't know what the Blackfyre words are, and the claim about it is basically an invention, contradicted by Dany herself. Meanwhile F&B made a point of Rego saying that Pentoshi are a mixture of people, including Valyrians, explaining why Illyrio as a youth might have looks comparable to Lyseni.

The only argument that requires an answer is the Golden Company, but that you can find in the history of the Golden Company itself and the responses with the Golden Company commanders themselves: over time and after Bittersteel started to veer away more and more over time from their initial purpose, especially when they followed Maelys. And in aDwD they had been waiting for the go ahead to join Viserys or Dany, actual Targs. So, no I don't think Illyrio is a Blackfyre and that the Golden Company even cares anymore about Blackfyres. Nor do I think Varys a Blackfyre. I consider Illyrio's wife Serra to be a likely descendant of Saera Targaryen.

But the text suggests or implies that Illyrio might be Aegon's father: there is the statue of his youth, his sentimental story about Serra, and his sentimentality in wanting to see Aegon in particular. Either it's a red herring or he is the boy's father. But aDwD at least tries to plant the seed of Illyrio having fatherly feelings towards Aegon in the reader's mind. It's not even symbolical. 

Many readers expect there to be a Blackfyre, and because of the above they think Illyrio or Varys are it, often to give them motivation. But Varys's motivation works as business partner just as well. I do think there's a Blackfyre, but my suspicion is on Daario, who actually is from Tyrosh. And I do think that George will reveal Daario's background story, whatever it is.

As for what the forum members hope for: I don't consider that much of an argument for which mystery George will clarify or not. Because of the World book many people have hoped to learn what was in the letter to Aegon the Conquerer that made him decide to have a stalemate peace with Dorne. All the hope was aimed at getting the answer in F&B, where George made it very clear we'll never get the answer to that.

I'm not basing it on forum members beyond what works as a well-written story. Plot and character must make sense at a basic level and leaving Illyrio or any such character like him unexplained leaves a major problem at that basic level. GRRM has provided answers in the past for the workings of the Game and the characters involved in it in the series proper, though not always in full. I don't think we'll be left completely hanging now with Illyrio or the other characters operating the plot machine.

Like I said, I’m ok with some things remaining mysterious and it’s actually one of the things I like about the series. But I have to distinguish between a little mystery and a pothole plothole which ruins the suspension of my car my appreciation and understanding because there are *HUGE* gaps in the road  story.

Gotta leave enough road to carry the reader through, especially casual readers which are most readers of the series.

I don't really compare mysteries which exist in ASOIAF which is a real story with a real plot and real characters with the mysteries in the so-called "fake" histories. They're written differently with a different context, one with first hand observation which is experienced by the reader along with the character and other is recalling the past, and GRRM has commented on the problems which come with that, and not just in using the name "fake" histories.

 

[Lollygag]

On the issue of Illyrio and Aegon and that being left as such a large part of the reader's understanding of Illyrio, this doesn't work for me. Illyrio eats cherries here, possibly from the cherry trees surrounding what we assume to be Aegon's statue. Cherries are symbolic of blood and in Japan, specifically Samurai warrior blood. Illyrio is fully aware that he is popping Aegon's warrior cherry and what may come of it.

ADWD Tyrion I

Tyrion was beginning to suspect that a certain freckled washerwoman knew more of the Common Speech than she pretended. "My niece Myrcella is in Dorne, as it happens. And I have half a mind to make her a queen."

Illyrio smiled as his serving men spooned out bowls of black cherries in sweet cream for them both. "What has this poor child done to you that you would wish her dead?"

"Even a kinslayer is not required to slay all his kin," said Tyrion, wounded. "Queen her, I said. Not kill her."

The cheesemonger spooned up cherries. "In Volantis they use a coin with a crown on one face and a death's-head on the other. Yet it is the same coin. To queen her is to kill her. Dorne might rise for Myrcella, but Dorne alone is not enough. If you are as clever as our friend insists, you know this."

Tyrion looked at the fat man with new interest. He is right on both counts. To queen her is to kill her. And I knew that. "Futile gestures are all that remain to me. This one would make my sister weep bitter tears, at least."

 

I don't doubt that Illyrio has genuine feelings for Aegon and would truly mourn him. But Illyrio knows exactly what he's doing here and is aware of the choice and its consequences. Aegon's death wouldn't be unexpected.

 

[sweetsunray]

11 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Plot and character must make sense at a basic level and leaving Illyrio or any such character like him unexplained leaves a major problem at that basic level. GRRM has provided answers in the past for the workings of the Game and the characters involved in it in the series proper, though not always in full. I don't think we'll be left completely hanging now with Illyrio or the other characters operating the plot machine.

We already have mounting evidence for the motivation with the scenes we have: opportunistic ambition. Now I know that for many readers this seems too simple, as they have often expressed their dissatisfaction with that as a motive for Illyrio, hence the need to involve Blackfyre ties, just like plenty of readers are dissatisfied with the motivation we got for Joffrey sending a catspaw to kill Bran.

[sweetsunray]

4 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

On the issue of Illyrio and Aegon and that being left as such a large part of the reader's understanding of Illyrio, this doesn't work for me. Illyrio eats cherries here, possibly from the cherry trees surrounding what we assume to be Aegon's statue. Cherries are symbolic of blood and in Japan, specifically Samurai warrior blood. Illyrio is fully aware that he is popping Aegon's warrior cherry and what may come of it.

ADWD Tyrion I

Tyrion was beginning to suspect that a certain freckled washerwoman knew more of the Common Speech than she pretended. "My niece Myrcella is in Dorne, as it happens. And I have half a mind to make her a queen."

Illyrio smiled as his serving men spooned out bowls of black cherries in sweet cream for them both. "What has this poor child done to you that you would wish her dead?"

"Even a kinslayer is not required to slay all his kin," said Tyrion, wounded. "Queen her, I said. Not kill her."

The cheesemonger spooned up cherries. "In Volantis they use a coin with a crown on one face and a death's-head on the other. Yet it is the same coin. To queen her is to kill her. Dorne might rise for Myrcella, but Dorne alone is not enough. If you are as clever as our friend insists, you know this."

Tyrion looked at the fat man with new interest. He is right on both counts. To queen her is to kill her. And I knew that. "Futile gestures are all that remain to me. This one would make my sister weep bitter tears, at least."

 

I don't doubt that Illyrio has genuine feelings for Aegon and would truly mourn him. But Illyrio knows exactly what he's doing here and is aware of the choice and its consequences. Aegon's death wouldn't be unexpected.

 

I assume the statue to be Illyrio, not Aegon, as that is what Illyrio tells us it to be.

Cherries with cream, Illyrio eats while he talks of women. Dany throws white cherries to Xaro when he starts up the wedding suggestions again. And the bride in the Egg story of the tourney is eating cherries while seated in her husband's lap.

But I agree that Illyrio knows the throne is bloody business.