Were Ned, Robert and Jon Arryn the villains of the rebellion?

[Bowen 747]

On 1/4/2019 at 9:47 PM, E.S. Dinah said:

I don't know about villains but they made the kingdom worse.  The kingdom would have been better off if Aerys had won the war and beheaded all of the Baratheons, Starks, and Arryns.  Or burn them.  Whichever he preferred.  Jon Arryn's math is messed up.  He started a rebellion that killed many to protect two men.  That should have been a clue as to what kind of leader he would be.  He allowed Robert to bankrupt the country.  Lf was screwing his wife underneath his nose.  Cersei was cuckolding the king under his watch.  That's not an improvement over Aerys.  Aerys burned people.  Duh, so does Stannis.  The Targaryens fought among themselves for power.  Duh, so do the Baratheons.  Look to Renly and Stannis.  Aerys punished some innocents along with the guilty at Duskendale.  Well, Robert sent an assassin after an innocent, young girl.  Whose throne he stole.  Ned protested but in the end was going to let it happen.  They were worse than Aerys.

This is true.  

[Bernie Mac]

15 hours ago, Bowen 747 said:

The Baratheons will be nothing more than a tiny footnote in history.  

That's not really true.  Robert toppled the Targaryen dynasty, the first none Targ to rule Westeros. His reign was longer than 10 of the Targaryen Kings. 

Even if every Baratheon is wiped out by the end of the series the Baratheons will still be a significant part of Westerosi history

• 3 kings of Westeros
• 3 rebel kings
• 3 centuries of rule over the Stormlands
• The very first Hand and at least one more 

[The Wolves]

On 1/6/2019 at 6:23 AM, The Sunland Lord said:

Of course they were, but Tywin wasn't. He was a hero.

I hope you’re trolling. Tywin had babies murdered and women raped on his order. He is a monster and anyone who thinks Tywin is a hero is out their gawd damn mind. 

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, The Wolves said:

I hope you’re trolling. Tywin had babies murdered and women raped on his order. He is a monster and anyone who thinks Tywin is a hero is out their gawd damn mind. 

Not trolling, being sarcastic. IMO.

[Loose Bolt]

4 hours ago, The Wolves said:

I hope you’re trolling. Tywin had babies murdered and women raped on his order. He is a monster and anyone who thinks Tywin is a hero is out their gawd damn mind. 

But he was very good Hand of the king. In fact he was so competent that his king became jealous and paranoid. Tywin also was smart enough to resign and so he belongs to that minority of Hotks who outlived their kings.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Loose Bolt said:

But he was very good Hand of the king. In fact he was so competent that his king became jealous and paranoid. Tywin also was smart enough to resign and so he belongs to that minority of Hotks who outlived their kings.

Tywin was very efficient, that can't be denied. The question is, is efficiency at any cost something worthy of being pursued? 

[The Wolves]

5 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

But he was very good Hand of the king. In fact he was so competent that his king became jealous and paranoid. Tywin also was smart enough to resign and so he belongs to that minority of Hotks who outlived their kings.

His good(find me what good he did)does not outweigh his rapes and murders of the hundreds(probably thousands)of innocents. Tywin being a good Hand does not erase his  gang rape of a 14yr old girl, nor the rape and murders of Elia, her children and King Landings sack nor the complete and brutal destruction of the Reynes and Tarbecks. Tywin is a monster wearing human skin. 

[Bernie Mac]

34 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

His good(find me what good he did)

He kept Westeros peaceful and prosperous for 20 years while Hand, preventing at least one major war with Braavos. He brought peace. order and stability to the Westerlands after his father's rule had left it chaotic, both from rebellious lords and foreign enemies. 

Tywin clearly did good and while I personally don't view him as a 'hero' there will be many, primarily from the Westerlands, who view him as such. One of the ironies of war is that one side's monster is another side's hero.

34 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

 

does not outweigh his rapes and murders

I agree. I think there are few real heroes in Westeros and pretty much every leader we have seen has done things that will not outweigh the good they have done.

34 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

 

of the hundreds(probably thousands)of innocents.

Huge exaggeration here. 

You don't need to be needlessly hyperbolic to get your point across.

34 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

 

Tywin being a good Hand does not erase his  gang rape of a 14yr old girl, nor the rape and murders of Elia, her children

100% agreement

34 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

 

and King Landings sack

Sack is just the terminology of what happens when a settlement is captured, it was going to be sacked regardless.

34 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

nor the complete and brutal destruction of the Reynes and Tarbecks.

You mean the rebels who murdered his grandfather and a few hundred others in cold blood? The Reynes and Tarbecks who rebelled and refused to surrender? 

 

[Angel Eyes]

On 1/5/2019 at 4:10 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Self-preservation is not a key for a leader.  Arryn should put the greater good ahead of his friends and family.  And if he was part of Robert and Rickard's conspiracy against the Targaryens he is deserving of death.  He should know and accept that they got caught.  It's time to pay for his plotting.

Prove it. 

For all we know Robert and Ned were staying with him in the Eyrie, would Jon Arryn have broken Guest Right, one of the highest laws of the land where breaking it is a major taboo? Would he take that chance that those staying at the Eyrie would fear him murdering them under his roof? Is he such a man to leave his wards to be slaughtered like sheep for no purpose?

[The Sunland Lord]

13 hours ago, The Wolves said:

I hope you’re trolling. Tywin had babies murdered and women raped on his order. He is a monster and anyone who thinks Tywin is a hero is out their gawd damn mind. 

@kissdbyfire knows me well, thou shall trust her.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 1/4/2019 at 6:31 AM, Mordred said:

Jon Arryn started that war.  He should have done as he was commanded and executed Robert and Ned.  Their families were plotting to take down the Targaryen monarchy.  Which make them the villains in my view.

The Mad King had already executed Ned's father & older brother (the latter of whom was way too hotheaded carry out any secretive plot). And Robert didn't have any older family members to do any plotting. Nor had he been doing anything when Rhaegar abducted his fiance. Aerys created enemies, just as he imagined that his former mistress & her family were behind the death of one of his infant children. There was no end to the enemies he imagined, and as Jon Arryn had a sacred duty to shelter those who were not only his guests but also his foster children, he refused. And Jon Arryn wound up being a more capable hand than the lickspittles Aerys chose to replace the Hand he'd alienated for being too competent.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 1/4/2019 at 8:47 PM, E.S. Dinah said:

Aerys burned people.  Duh, so does Stannis.  The Targaryens fought among themselves for power.  Duh, so do the Baratheons.  Look to Renly and Stannis.  Aerys punished some innocents along with the guilty at Duskendale.  Well, Robert sent an assassin after an innocent, young girl.  Whose throne he stole.  Ned protested but in the end was going to let it happen.  They were worse than Aerys.

Jon Arryn wasn't fighting to put Stannis on the throne, and at any rate Stannis wasn't burning anyone at the time. I don't think he ever does it until after Jon Arryn & Robert are dead (and he doesn't do it as a substitute for someone's trial by combat, nor does he attempt it at the scale Aerys did during the sack of King's Landing). And Aerys killed EVERYONE at Duskendale except for Dontos Hollard. Killing one or two political figures to prevent a war is what Robert was attempting with that assassin, and what you think Jon Arryn should have done with his wards. The Starks & Baratheons were only plotting to overthrow Aerys in his head. Viserys Targaryen really was angling to invade Westeros with Drogo's khalasar, which is why Daenerys was married to Drogo. Viserys could have lived, if not a life to his liking, if he'd just stayed in Braavos. Ned & Robert's actions had nothing to do with the death sentence Aerys passed on them. A ruler who kills people regardless of their actions does not encourage loyalty & peace.

[frenin]

Wanted to see if this would be as hilarious as i thought, it was.

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

On 12/12/2018 at 12:20 AM, divica said:

As we all know history is written by the winners and aerys was a perfect scapegoat to justify their actions.

I am not denying that aerys was a bad person or that he had some mental problems. But the truth is that all his paranoia was justified. We know that some strange marriages were being planned through westeros, that he had allienated tywin so it is possible that he ploted against aerys some time during his reign, it is believed that rhaegar tried to depose him, not to mention what happened at dukensdale… It is hard to criticize a king being paranoid taking into account all that was happening…

Now moving along to the rebelion. We don t know what happened between rhaegar and lyanna neither why they disapeared (as long as we know) for some months. What we do know is that brandon apeared in KL wanting to kill rhaegar. So aerys actions in imprisioning him makes perfect sense. The problem is what happens next...

So if instead of assuming that aerys and his advisers were supercrazy and murdered 2 starks (1 of them without reason) and then ordered jon arryn to kill 2 men he considered as sons without good reason and expected him to obey what if we try to justify his actions.

Lets take a leap and assume the north and the vale were indeed conspiring to put robert on the throne. So Brandon as the heir would know about the plot and might even talked about it with his closest friends (some of them went with him to KL obviously). So after being imprisioned and threatened with death some of brandon's companions might have tried to bargain their freedom by telling the king about the northern plot. Giving that everybody else ended up dead it would make sense if it was brandon's squire that talked and ended up surviving because of that...

So getting back to the story. After hearing about the conspiracy aerys naturally called the northern lords that he knew were involved (their fathers) and killed them how he saw fit. Afterwards, like he was paranoid he would want to kill robert (the supposed new king) and ned (robert's best friend and old enough to know what his familly was scheming). Then given the relation between jon arryn and these 2 it would make sense that some people wold think that he also was a traitor but could aerys kill jon arryn without any proof? Has aerys ever killed a lord as important as jon arryn without reason? (he even imprisoned brandon instead of simply killing him)… So what if he sent jon arryn to kill ned and robert in order to show his loalty to his king and that he wasn t part of the plot to depose him?

And here jon starts telling his version of history. That the king was mad and paranoid and had no reason to do what he did… And given the fact that aerys wasn t liked and was cruel and slightly paranoid who would believe the king over jon arryn and his supporters? And if aerys had already killed a lot of the people that already knew about the conspiracy it was even better.

And the interesting thing is that jon arryn didn t even need to be part of the northern conspiracy. As long as jon didn t believe aerys when he told him that the starks were traitors he would act as he did (and given aerys personality who would blame him for not believing in him?). My biggest (and maybe only) problem with all this  is that any conspiracy (with or without jon arryn) would always need to convince robert to rebel against the targs...

Ned, Robert, and Jon Arryn made decisions that ended up killing hundreds of thousands of people to replace the Targaryens with a Baratheon regime that ultimately could not hold the kingdom together.  Westeros would have been much better off even under Aerys. 

The Targaryens were threatened by the alliances being formed by Rickard Stark and Robert Baratheon.  Such an alliance of the great houses would result in the end of the Targaryen Dynasty.  War was going to happen as long as Rickard and Robert continued to pursue this alliance.  It was simply something the Targaryens could never allow.  Rickard, Robert, Hoster, and Jon were the villains because they were chipping away at the authority of their king.  Aerys was correct in calling for the death of Robert Baratheon.  He was correct to execute Brandon and Rickard.  Calling for Ned to die was questionable but if Ned knew of his family's plot, yeah, he should die for treason.  He was old enough to understand what was going on.  A loyal young man would go to his king and expose his family's guilt. 

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

Ned, Robert, and Jon Arryn made decisions that ended up killing hundreds of thousands of people to replace the Targaryens with a Baratheon regime that ultimately could not hold the kingdom together.  Westeros would have been much better off even under Aerys. 

As long as everyone did nothing to his madness right?? Because that's the only way, this assumption is just hilarious.

 

 

1 hour ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

The Targaryens were threatened by the alliances being formed by Rickard Stark and Robert Baratheon.  Such an alliance of the great houses would result in the end of the Targaryen Dynasty.

They sure as hell didn't seem very concerned with such marriages and  that alliance only ended the Targ dynasty because the Targ dynasty started killing them, a very circular argument.

 

1 hour ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

War was going to happen as long as Rickard and Robert continued to pursue this alliance.  It was simply something the Targaryens could never allow

And why didn't them say something?? And why Ned or Robert didn't say something about that alliance??

 

1 hour ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

Hoster, and Jon were the villains because they were chipping away at the authority of their king

How so??

 

1 hour ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

Aerys was correct in calling for the death of Robert Baratheon.  He was correct to execute Brandon and Rickard.  Calling for Ned to die was questionable but if Ned knew of his family's plot, yeah, he should die for treason.  He was old enough to understand what was going on.  A loyal young man would go to his king and expose his family's guilt. 

 

.

 

[chrisdaw]

The rule of Aerys was rejected by so many of his subjects that they were able to militarily overcome those loyal to him. It was a failure of his rule.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

6 hours ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

Ned, Robert, and Jon Arryn made decisions that ended up killing hundreds of thousands of people to replace the Targaryens with a Baratheon regime that ultimately could not hold the kingdom together.  Westeros would have been much better off even under Aerys

So are you saying that if your foster children & friends were having their life threatened for no justifiable reason, you would have handed them over for slaughter? If so, I am thankful that Jon Arryn was not near as cowardly as that. 

Aerys let his own Kingdom fall apart. 

6 hours ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

The Targaryens were threatened by the imagined alliances being formed by Rickard Stark and Robert Baratheon.  

There, fixed that for you. 

6 hours ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

Such an alliance of the great houses would result in the end of the Targaryen Dynasty.  War was going to happen as long as Rickard and Robert continued to pursue this alliance.  It was simply something the Targaryens could never allow.  Rickard, Robert, Hoster, and Jon were the villains because they were chipping away at the authority of their king.  Aerys was correct in calling for the death of Robert Baratheon.  He was correct to execute Brandon and Rickard.  Calling for Ned to die was questionable but if Ned knew of his family's plot, yeah, he should die for treason.  He was old enough to understand what was going on.  A loyal young man would go to his king and expose his family's guilt. 

Come now, alliances happen all the time, it doesn't bring down the kingdom. Not to mention the great northern conspiracy isn't canon. 

A loyal young man would go to his King & expose his families guilt?! 

So not only are you cowardly but willing to betray your family as well?

I really hope you are another Stark hater just spewing nonsense made up to twist anything & everything into being a Stark or Stark supporters fault & not that you would really do these things. If so I feel for your family. 

[kissdbyfire]

48 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

The rule of Aerys was rejected by so many of his subjects that they were able to militarily overcome those loyal to him. It was a failure of his rule.

This doesn’t happen very often, but here I agree w/ you wholeheartedly.

And some of the arguments I’ve just read are literally doing my head in. Like, WTAF. 

[the trees have eyes]

I tried to find something here to consider seriously but came up short.

Aerys the Great Victim, Jon Arryn the LF of his day, Robert a king in waiting long before events actually pushed people to action....

All based off conjecture around some marriage alliances.

Rhaegar would have removed his own father from power due to incapacity (madness) given the opportunity.  There's no reason to look for other people to fit the bill here or engage in a high risk plot.  When Aerys started killing people of the highest rank without trial the game changed. 

Oaths work two ways.  When the king breaks his part of the compact the issue is resolved by swords.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

13 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And some of the arguments I’ve just read are literally doing my head in. Like, WTAF.

Yeah. I can usually see where someone is coming from, even if I don't agree with where they are going. But I cannot wrap my mind around this. 

Some King, that is no friend or family of mine, means next to nothing to me in comparison to my friends/family. 

A King who is no friend/family of mine, is cruel & mad, & has also killed 2 of my friends/family in a horrific manner not only means nothing to me but I would also kill the man if given the chance.

This mind set is how we ended up with things like Nazi Germany - this doing what we are told regardless of what is right. 

Ned lost 2 siblings & his father thanks to the Targ's & had Jon Arryn not stood up for him he would have lost a close friend & his own head in the process also, yet some how things are still spun to make Aerys the victim. I just don't get it.