Were Ned, Robert and Jon Arryn the villains of the rebellion?

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Neither has the Frog, the Beaut, Cat or Cersei.

Does Ned call Aerys mad? I dont recall that, Jaime either.

Selmy is an interesting issue. Hes an old man whos been warring for years, CTE is a thing. Memory loss too, which Selmy actually does on numerous occasions

All the ones I’ve mentioned call Aerys or refer to him as the Mad King. And more: Bran, Tyrion, Sansa, Myrcella, Jon. And no, Barristand knows full well how mad Aerys was. 

ASoS, Daenerys VI

“His father’s son?” Dany frowned. “What does that mean?”
The old knight did not blink. “Your father is called ‘the Mad King’ in Westeros. Has no one ever told you?”
“Viserys did.” The Mad King. “The Usurper called him that, the Usurper and his dogs.” The Mad King. “It was a lie.”
“Why ask for truth,” Ser Barristan said softly, “if you close your ears to it?” He hesitated, then continued. “I told you before that I used a false name so the Lannisters would not know that I’d joined you. That was less than half of it, Your Grace. The truth is, I wanted to watch you for a time before pledging you my sword. To make certain that you were not . . . ”
“ . . . my father’s daughter?” If she was not her father’s daughter, who was she?
“ . . . mad,” he finished. “But I see no taint in you.”
“Taint?” Dany bristled.
“I am no maester to quote history at you, Your Grace. Swords have been my life, not books. But every child knows that the Targaryens have always danced too close to madness. Your father was not the first.” 

Ser Barry’s memory is just fine. 

[Arthur Peres]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Sorry. (It fit the flow) 

Robert wanted to be king. 

No problem, responding several people usually gets confused.

Robert did not wanted to be king, all the quotes points on this direction such as:

"I'm not trying to honor you, I'm trying to get you to run my kingdom while I eat, drink, and whore my way to an early grave."

"The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me. A crown ... it was the girl I prayed them for. Your sister, safe ... and mine again, as she was meant to be. I ask you, Ned, what good is it to wear a crown? The gods mock the prayers of kings and cowherds alike"

"Let me tell you a secret, Ned. More than once, I have dreamed of giving up the crown. Take ship for the Free Cities with my horse and my hammer, spend my time warring and whoring, that's what I was made for. The sellsword king, how the singers would love me. You know what stops me? The thought of Joffrey on the throne, with Cersei standing behind him whispering in his ear. My son. How could I have made a son like that, Ned?"

 

[Hugorfonics]

14 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

All the ones I’ve mentioned call Aerys or refer to him as the Mad King. And more: Bran, Tyrion, Sansa, Myrcella, Jon. And no, Barristand knows full well how mad Aerys was. 

ASoS, Daenerys VI

“His father’s son?” Dany frowned. “What does that mean?”
The old knight did not blink. “Your father is called ‘the Mad King’ in Westeros. Has no one ever told you?”
“Viserys did.” The Mad King. “The Usurper called him that, the Usurper and his dogs.” The Mad King. “It was a lie.”
“Why ask for truth,” Ser Barristan said softly, “if you close your ears to it?” He hesitated, then continued. “I told you before that I used a false name so the Lannisters would not know that I’d joined you. That was less than half of it, Your Grace. The truth is, I wanted to watch you for a time before pledging you my sword. To make certain that you were not . . . ”
“ . . . my father’s daughter?” If she was not her father’s daughter, who was she?
“ . . . mad,” he finished. “But I see no taint in you.”
“Taint?” Dany bristled.
“I am no maester to quote history at you, Your Grace. Swords have been my life, not books. But every child knows that the Targaryens have always danced too close to madness. Your father was not the first.” 

Ser Barry’s memory is just fine. 

None of these people knew Aerys. 

Barris memory is not fine. He knows Dany survived and within 4 sentences hes second guessing and believing the masses.

I repeat, old age leads to memory loss, concussions lead to memory loss. Selmy has been a knight for like half a century.

Quote

Most of what she knew of Westeros had come from her brother, and the rest from Ser Jorah. Ser Barristan would have forgotten more than the two of them had ever known.

14 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

No problem, responding several people usually gets confused.

Robert did not wanted to be king, all the quotes points on this direction such as:

"I'm not trying to honor you, I'm trying to get you to run my kingdom while I eat, drink, and whore my way to an early grave."

"The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me. A crown ... it was the girl I prayed them for. Your sister, safe ... and mine again, as she was meant to be. I ask you, Ned, what good is it to wear a crown? The gods mock the prayers of kings and cowherds alike"

"Let me tell you a secret, Ned. More than once, I have dreamed of giving up the crown. Take ship for the Free Cities with my horse and my hammer, spend my time warring and whoring, that's what I was made for. The sellsword king, how the singers would love me. You know what stops me? The thought of Joffrey on the throne, with Cersei standing behind him whispering in his ear. My son. How could I have made a son like that, Ned?"

 

Not all quotes. Stannis' quote that I supplied says Robert desperately wanted it.

Besides the quotes your supplying says Robert regretted becoming king, not that he never wanted it.

If Robert didn't want to become king he wouldnt have sat down.

15 hours ago, frenin said:

There were three tombs, side by side. Lord Rickard Stark, Ned's father, had a long, stern face. The stonemason had known him well. He sat with quiet dignity, stone fingers holding tight to the sword across his lap, but in life all swords had failed him. In two smaller sepulchres on either side were his children. Brandon had been twenty when he died, strangled by order of the Mad King Aerys Targaryen only a few short days before he was to wed Catelyn Tully of Riverrun. His father had been forced to watch him die. He was the true heir, the eldest, born to rule.
Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride.  AGOT Eddard I

 

 

The war had raged for close to a year. Lords great and small had flocked to Robert's banners; others had remained loyal to Targaryen. The mighty Lannisters of Casterly Rock, the Wardens of the West, had remained aloof from the struggle, ignoring calls to arms from both rebels and royalists. Aerys Targaryen must have thought that his gods had answered his prayers when Lord Tywin Lannister appeared before the gates of King's Landing with an army twelve thousand strong, professing loyalty. So the mad king had ordered his last mad act. He had opened his city to the lions at the gate.
"Treachery was a coin the Targaryens knew well," Robert said. The anger was building in him again. "Lannister paid them back in kind. It was no less than they deserved. I shall not trouble my sleep over it."  AGOT Eddard II

 

 

 

Ned did not need Littlefinger to tell him that. He was thinking back to the day Arya had been found, to the look on the queen's face when she said, We have a wolf, so soft and quiet. He was thinking of the boy Mycah, of Jon Arryn's sudden death, of Bran's fall, of old mad Aerys Targaryen dying on the floor of his throne room while his life's blood dried on a gilded blade. "My lady," he said, turning to Catelyn, "there is nothing more you can do here. I want you to return to Winterfell at once. If there was one assassin, there could be others. Whoever ordered Bran's death will learn soon enough that the boy still lives. AGOT Eddard IV

 

 

We do not have however, quotes of Jaime calling him mad, we just have, Aerys direct actions in Jaime's memories and yes,  cooco.

I misremembered Ned, thanks.

Isnt it strange that Jaime doesn't comment on Aerys' insanity?

15 hours ago, frenin said:

So anger is the same as madness, there is nothing mad about that, Robert hates the Targs, just as there is nothing mad in the Targs hating him in turn and dreaming with killing him.

 

Nor Barbs is crazy. I don't understandt he correlaion between revenge and madness here.

So what do you think is madness? Bouncing off the walls like Bugs Bunny? Did Aerys do that?

 

15 hours ago, frenin said:

But we do have evidence of the first, we have first hand accounts to tell us that, are you not agreeing with the text again??

Of course!

15 hours ago, frenin said:

Ned himself claims Jon is his. 

Im not agreeing to that text. Nor to the grumkins in the woodpile! 

15 hours ago, frenin said:

Btw, how do you know Rhaegar is not a rapist??

I do not. But im willing to bet Lyanna was willing

15 hours ago, frenin said:

So Selmy is misremembreing years of his life, years that clearly marked him?? Isn't it nice??

No. Its fucking confusing lol

[Khal Rhaego Targaryen]

I think it is quite clear that what we hear about the Rebellion is just a false anti-Targaryen advertising. Ned, Robert and Jon Arryn have definitely ruined everything but I don't see them as "villain". Rickard was the real "villain" but it doesn't matter anymore because they are as dead as mAd KiNg  

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, Sweet Desire said:

I think it is quite clear that what we hear about the Rebellion is just a false anti-Targaryen advertising

It isn't "quite clear". In fact, it isn't clear at all. Unless you're talking about a different story, perhaps? After all, Martin himself has said he would have sided w/ the rebels against the Mad King. 

[frenin]

7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I misremembered Ned, thanks.

Isnt it strange that Jaime doesn't comment on Aerys' insanity?

Jaime doesn't comment  what??  Jaime spends there books thinking about Aerys deeds.

 

 

7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

So what do you think is madness? Bouncing off the walls like Bugs Bunny? Did Aerys do that?

Anger isn't.

Paranoia, cruelty, random changes of humour, "" vivid imagination" and  the likes. Yes, Aerys did all that.

 

 

7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Of course!

Why aren't we arguing your text instead of Asoiaf?? If you're just saying that canon isn't canon, why even bother??

So

 

7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Im not agreeing to that text. Nor to the grumkins in the woodpile! 

You shouldn't agree with the one saying it. Ned.

 

 

7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I do not. But im willing to bet Lyanna was willing

Soz your whole argument is your own bet??

 

 

7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

No. Its fucking confusing lol

Not regarding Aerys no. Those events he remembers them, just fine.

But ofc, you can just believe that people called him that for funsies.

[Hugorfonics]

22 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

It isn't "quite clear". In fact, it isn't clear at all. Unless you're talking about a different story, perhaps? 

Why is it that no one names Robert oathbreaker? He tore the realm apart, yet I am the one with shit for honor."

"Robert did all he did for love." Water ran down Brienne's legs and pooled beneath her feet.

"Robert did all he did for pride, a cunt, and a pretty face." He made a fist . . . or would have, if he'd had a hand. Pain lanced up his arm, cruel as laughter.

"He rode to save the realm," she insisted.

To save the realm.

.

Same story. As fishy as ever

22 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

After all, Martin himself has said he would have sided w/ the rebels against the Mad King. 

This doesnt exonerate Robert and co. King John would be my advisory, should I trust the scheming English lords? Or during the French Revolution id be screaming La Resistance, should I be confident in the Terror? Or in WW2, Id fight the imperialists in east asia, should I be excited fighting for Mao or Kim Ill Sung?

GRRM is American. We're not into kings. Especially those that act with absolutism, which is why we're blessed with a constitution that can impeach any bastard who gets out of line. 

Westeros has no constitution, so while Ned and other good hearted folks revolted to end tyranny; Robert and some other folks of suspect hearts did not seem to care about such trivial matters. Like right or wrong, justice or murder, truth or propaganda

19 hours ago, frenin said:

Jaime doesn't comment  what??  Jaime spends there books thinking about Aerys deeds.

Not fond memories, obviously, he replaced Cersei. Plus he was a total ass. But where's the madness that everyother character (who never met him) seems to reflect on?

19 hours ago, frenin said:

Anger isn't.

Paranoia, cruelty, random changes of humour, "" vivid imagination" and  the likes. Yes, Aerys did all that.

Paranoia?

"Your Grace, I never knew you to fear Rhaegar." Ned fought to keep the scorn out of his voice, and failed. "Have the years so unmanned you that you tremble at the shadow of an unborn child?"

Cruelty?

Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, "I see no babes. Only dragonspawn." Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm.

Random changes of humor?

"You see what she does to me, Ned." The king seated himself, cradling his wine cup. "My loving wife. The mother of my children." The rage was gone from him now; in his eyes Ned saw something sad and scared. "I should not have hit her. That was not … that was not kingly." He stared down at his hands, as if he did not quite know what they were.

Vivid imagination?

"Let me tell you a secret, Ned. More than once, I have dreamed of giving up the crown. Take ship for the Free Cities with my horse and my hammer, spend my time warring and whoring, that's what I was made for. The sellsword king, how the singers would love me.

Im sorry... Which one was the mad king

19 hours ago, frenin said:

Why aren't we arguing your text instead of Asoiaf?? If you're just saying that canon isn't canon, why even bother??

So

You shouldn't agree with the one saying it. Ned.

Soz your whole argument is your own bet??

Im confused. R+L=fucking J

Want quotes to back that up?

19 hours ago, frenin said:

Not regarding Aerys no. Those events he remembers them, just fine.

How do you know?

19 hours ago, frenin said:

 

But ofc, you can just believe that people called him that for funsies.

It sensitizes Roberts treason 

[frenin]

26 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Why is it that no one names Robert oathbreaker? He tore the realm apart, yet I am the one with shit for honor."

"Robert did all he did for love." Water ran down Brienne's legs and pooled beneath her feet.

"Robert did all he did for pride, a cunt, and a pretty face." He made a fist . . . or would have, if he'd had a hand. Pain lanced up his arm, cruel as laughter.

"He rode to save the realm," she insisted.

To save the realm.

.

Same story. As fishy as ever

What do you get from here, i'm curious.

 

27 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Westeros has no constitution, so while Ned and other good hearted folks revolted to end tyranny; Robert and some other folks of suspect hearts did not seem to care about such trivial matters. Like right or wrong, justice or murder, truth or propaganda

19 hours ago, frenin said:

Yeah, to save their lives from the mad king, to get back the people some princes took by the face, things like that.

 

28 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Not fond memories, obviously, he replaced Cersei. Plus he was a total ass. But where's the madness that everyother character (who never met him) seems to reflect on?

19 hours ago, frenin said:

Sorry, don't know, the whole burning people alive thing and getting aroused by it, the paranoia, the enemies everywhere, the whole burning KL, him believing that his wife had cheated on him because she had miscarriages, , torturing mistresses and so on.

 

39 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Paranoia?

"Your Grace, I never knew you to fear Rhaegar." Ned fought to keep the scorn out of his voice, and failed. "Have the years so unmanned you that you tremble at the shadow of an unborn child?"

Cruelty?

Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, "I see no babes. Only dragonspawn." Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm.

Random changes of humor?

"You see what she does to me, Ned." The king seated himself, cradling his wine cup. "My loving wife. The mother of my children." The rage was gone from him now; in his eyes Ned saw something sad and scared. "I should not have hit her. That was not … that was not kingly." He stared down at his hands, as if he did not quite know what they were.

Vivid imagination?

"Let me tell you a secret, Ned. More than once, I have dreamed of giving up the crown. Take ship for the Free Cities with my horse and my hammer, spend my time warring and whoring, that's what I was made for. The sellsword king, how the singers would love me.

Im sorry... Which one was the mad king

You have to be kidding lmao. 

But to your question, it still the blond one.

 

 

41 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Im confused. R+L=fucking J

Want quotes to back that up?

??? We were discussing the rape thing, not the Jon is son  of x thing, be it love or rape, a kid is born all the same... Ask Ramsay.

 

 

42 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

How do you know?

20 hours ago, frenin said:

Because those were emotionally scarring memories...

 

 

42 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

It sensitizes Roberts treason 

Really doesn't. But ofc, you can just believe everybody, including the author, have no idea about what they are talking.

[kissdbyfire]

@Hugorfonics, I’m not sure what you’re on about. You took my reply to someone else and kinda ran w/ it, but totally out of context. 

I was replying to someone who said, and I quote:

”I think it is quite clear that what we hear about the Rebellion is just a false anti-Targaryen advertising.”

And that’s just not only not “quite clear”, but downright incorrect. 

I never said Robert was a saint, or that Ned was perfect, or that all Targs are evil, did I? 

Take any sampling of human beings and you’ll get a mixed lot. Women under 30 - there’ll be good ones and bad ones; Men over 50 w/ brown hair - good ones and bad ones. And on and on. So, yeah, there have been good Targs and bad Targs, good Starks and bad Starks, good Baratheons and bad Baratheons, etc. I’m sure you get the gist of it. That said, Aerys II was as bad as they come and needed to go. To claim that all that we hear - from numerous sources, including some pro-Targs no less - is “clearly anti-Targ propaganda” is a ridiculous statement, and quite laughable. 

[Hugorfonics]

18 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

@Hugorfonics, I’m not sure what you’re on about. You took my reply to someone else and kinda ran w/ it, but totally out of context. 

I was replying to someone who said, and I quote:

”I think it is quite clear that what we hear about the Rebellion is just a false anti-Targaryen advertising.”

And that’s just not only not “quite clear”, but downright incorrect. 

I never said Robert was a saint, or that Ned was perfect, or that all Targs are evil, did I? 

Take any sampling of human beings and you’ll get a mixed lot. Women under 30 - there’ll be good ones and bad ones; Men over 50 w/ brown hair - good ones and bad ones. And on and on. So, yeah, there have been good Targs and bad Targs, good Starks and bad Starks, good Baratheons and bad Baratheons, etc. I’m sure you get the gist of it. That said, Aerys II was as bad as they come and needed to go. To claim that all that we hear - from numerous sources, including some pro-Targs no less - is “clearly anti-Targ propaganda” is a ridiculous statement, and quite laughable. 

I thought I was in context. 

18 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

”I think it is quite clear that what we hear about the Rebellion is just a false anti-Targaryen advertising.”

"He rode to save the realm," she insisted.

30 minutes ago, frenin said:

What do you get from here, i'm curious.

Brienne was raised to believe Roberts a hero who saved the world, like Superman.

Jaime repeating her words in his mind reflects the disbelief of what he just heard.

How do you interpret the passage?

34 minutes ago, frenin said:

, him believing that his wife had cheated on him because she had miscarriages, , torturing mistresses and so on.

These were reflections in Jaimes pov? Not just maester dribble?

37 minutes ago, frenin said:

But to your question, it still the blond one.

Ahh, Joffrey. Agreed.

37 minutes ago, frenin said:

??? We were discussing the rape thing, not the Jon is son  of x thing, be it love or rape, a kid is born all the same... Ask Ramsay.

Ahh, I see. Lyanna seemed to enjoy Rhegars harp

42 minutes ago, frenin said:

Because those were emotionally scarring memories...

So was watching Dany fly and possibly die.

Im telling you, Barri's memory is chopped. From his reflections of Dayne to the recent memory of Dany laughing in Quintyns face

35 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

 That said, Aerys II was as bad as they come and needed to go. 

Aerys needed to go, but hes not as bad as they come.

Thats Joff, no ones worse then him. Or Viserys, no ones crazier then him. Or maybe Euron who could actually be worse then Joff and crazier then Viserys.

The night is dark and full of terrors

[frenin]

32 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Brienne was raised to believe Roberts a hero who saved the world, like Superman.

Jaime repeating her words in his mind reflects the disbelief of what he just heard.

How do you interpret the passage?

Hmm, not that the Targs were right and Robert and the gang just commited treason because they feel like it.

 

34 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

These were reflections in Jaimes pov? Not just maester dribble?

1 hour ago, frenin said:

So, that in your mind didn't also happen?? I already told you why Jaime thought he was mad, you don't want to but ut.

 

 

36 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ahh, Joffrey. Agreed.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Ofc, Joffrey is mad, Aerys just misunderstood.

 

36 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ahh, I see. Lyanna seemed to enjoy Rhegars harp

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Well there is a difference between enjoy someone's song and you know, leave behind life and family and hearing that the daddy of your crush intends to level half your family.

 

38 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

So was watching Dany fly and possibly die.

Im telling you, Barri's memory is chopped. From his reflections of Dayne to the recent memory of Dany laughing in Quintyns face

Yeah, that doesn't speak well of her either.

I'm telling you, the memories regarding Aerys are fine.

 

 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

This doesnt exonerate Robert and co. King John would be my advisory, should I trust the scheming English lords? Or during the French Revolution id be screaming La Resistance, should I be confident in the Terror? Or in WW2, Id fight the imperialists in east asia, should I be excited fighting for Mao or Kim Ill Sung?

You're right. The winning side gets to tell their tale. 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Westeros has no constitution, so while Ned and other good hearted folks revolted to end tyranny; Robert and some other folks of suspect hearts did not seem to care about such trivial matters. Like right or wrong, justice or murder, truth or propaganda

I can get behind this. Ned was good-hearted. Robert wasn't necessarily the opposite of that but he definitely didn't "ride to save the realm" Robert has a taste for adventure & battle. 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Not fond memories, obviously, he replaced Cersei. Plus he was a total ass. But where's the madness that everyother character (who never met him) seems to reflect on

Well, to be fair Jaime doesn't really need to say the words "he's mad" because he is giving us specific instances where he behaves very irrationally & murderous. He wants to burn KL to the ground. He abuses his wife on a regular basis, gets sexually aroused by fire, and thinks everyone is out to get him. Those things kind of speak for themselves. 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Im sorry... Which one was the mad king 

You plead a good case & Robert was an asshole & a drunken sot. Aerys though, did everything Robert did plus more. He murdered sadistically, stopped bathing & eating, stopped cutting his nails etc. If I were making some sort of scale to put them on or giving some diagnosis for them (not that I'm slightly qualified to do so) I would say Robert suffers from alcoholism & maybe some level of mental illness. Aerys is bat shit, level 10, lock em up in a padded room, psychotic. 

 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

How do you know?

Are there any times other than when you quoted Barry questioning himself about what he saw with Dany that make you think his memory is faulty? Because this one instance can be explained by it all happening so fast & it being a traumatic event. Doesn't necessarily mean his memory is faulty. 

I don't feel like Barristan is set up to be a character with a faulty or failing memory. He seems to remember things well enough & couple that with other people's views on Aerys & it's easy to believe it's the truth. Plus why would GRRM set things up like that? What would be the plot point? 

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 12/17/2019 at 2:52 PM, divica said:

Can you provide exemples of lords Paramount marrying their kids to other lords Paramount during targaryen reign? Because I am pretty sure the norm if for Nobles to marry their kids to their noble vassals and ocasionally nobles from other regions (not lords paramour).

• All the Baratheon / Lannister examples we get from the big book
• Doran's mom trying to marry Oberyn / Elia to Jaime / Cersei
• Tywin offering Tyrion to the Martells and Tullys (Hightower as well if you consider them a great house)
• A proposed marriage between Ronnel Arryn and a Stark daughter

Prolly missing some but none of these proposals or marriages generated any animosity from the crown. The only thing that came close was offering Tyrion and it being seen as an insult

[Hugorfonics]

12 hours ago, frenin said:

Hmm, not that the Targs were right and Robert and the gang just commited treason because they feel like it.

I never said that lol. 

Rhegar broke the laws of the 7 kingdoms as did Aerys, if it were possible for kings to be held accountable.

Robert did what he did for pride, not to oppress tyranny or put a stop to child murder

12 hours ago, frenin said:

So, that in your mind didn't also happen?? I already told you why Jaime thought he was mad, you don't want to but ut.

I dont trust the grey rats

12 hours ago, frenin said:

Ofc, Joffrey is mad, Aerys just misunderstood.

Joffrey was lost. He stripped and beat his fiancee in open court! Threatened Dontos with death for making a mockery of himself. 

This king took a crossbow to his constituents who were begging for food.

Joffrey was the worst, by far

12 hours ago, frenin said:

Well there is a difference between enjoy someone's song and you know, leave behind life and family and hearing that the daddy of your crush intends to level half your family.

Its a possibility

11 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

You're right. The winning side gets to tell their tale. 

I can get behind this. Ned was good-hearted. Robert wasn't necessarily the opposite of that but he definitely didn't "ride to save the realm" Robert has a taste for adventure & battle. 

The winners certainly get to say more then the losers. Whether it's whatever the Citadel chooses to print or the stories Brienne grew up with.

But its hard to fully erase history, even when the enemy is as terrible. As shown by our revelation of the French Revolution. 

11 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Well, to be fair Jaime doesn't really need to say the words "he's mad" because he is giving us specific instances where he behaves very irrationally & murderous. He wants to burn KL to the ground. He abuses his wife on a regular basis, gets sexually aroused by fire, and thinks everyone is out to get him. Those things kind of speak for themselves.  

For sure, Aerys wasnt all there. Yet the mantra for Aerys is hes mad, itd be easy for the kingslayer to justify his actions then

12 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

You plead a good case & Robert was an asshole & a drunken sot. Aerys though, did everything Robert did plus more. He murdered sadistically, stopped bathing & eating, stopped cutting his nails etc. If I were making some sort of scale to put them on or giving some diagnosis for them (not that I'm slightly qualified to do so) I would say Robert suffers from alcoholism & maybe some level of mental illness. Aerys is bat shit, level 10, lock em up in a padded room, psychotic. 

Did Aerys murder more then the average Westerosi king? Or even lord? And the grooming, long nails long hair, well.... He did get murdered, by his own guards. 

I agree Aerys was mad, I do not think he was a solid 10 though. He was coherent, for example. While his sons speech was babbled.

I like the idea that the realm was in trouble and Robert and co made it worse. I think itd be fitting if the whole world believes Aerys was nuts except his daughter who in turn becomes nuts and follows in the footprints of the story of her father. 

Im just stubborn lol, unless I see something truly convincing, Id give Aerys like a 6.

12 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

.Are there any times other than when you quoted Barry questioning himself about what he saw with Dany that make you think his memory is faulty? Because this one instance can be explained by it all happening so fast & it being a traumatic event. Doesn't necessarily mean his memory is faulty. 

I don't feel like Barristan is set up to be a character with a faulty or failing memory. He seems to remember things well enough & couple that with other people's views on Aerys & it's easy to believe it's the truth. Plus why would GRRM set things up like that? What would be the plot point? 

Theres the times of the when Selmy crossed sworda with Simon Toyne. He thinks he fought him in a tourney after he killed him. 

Also his recollection of leaving Joffrey to find Dany is more similar to getting fired and looking for Viserys.

Also theres this, one of my favorite passages,

 .

“My father was content to wait for the day that Prince Viserys found his army.”

"Your father?"

"Prince Doran." He sank back onto one knee. "Your Grace, I have the honor to be Quentyn Martell, a prince of Dorne and your most leal subject."

Dany laughed.

The Dornish prince flushed red, whilst her own court and counselors gave her puzzled looks. "Radiance?" said Skahaz Shavepate, in the Ghiscari tongue. "Why do you laugh?"

"They call him frog, " she said, "and we have just learned why. In the Seven Kingdoms there are children's tales of frogs who turn into enchanted princes when kissed by their true love." Smiling at the Dornish knights, she switched back to the Common Tongue. "Tell me, Prince Quentyn, are you enchanted?"

.

Lol good old Dany

.

Ser Gerris punched a wall. "I told him it was folly. I begged him to go home. Your bitch of a queen had no use for him, any man could see that. He crossed the world to offer her his love and fealty, and she laughed in his face."

"She never laughed," said Selmy. "If you knew her, you would know that."

12 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Plus why would GRRM set things up like that? What would be the plot point? 

Because hes mad? lol

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

I never said that lol. 

Rhegar broke the laws of the 7 kingdoms as did Aerys, if it were possible for kings to be held accountable.

Robert did what he did for pride, not to oppress tyranny or put a stop to child murder

Robert never claims he did what he did to oppress tyranny or put a stop to child murder, i still don't know who those children were, his priorities were, getting out alive, getting Lyanna back, killing Rhaegar, killing Targs.

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

I dont trust the grey rats

14 hours ago, frenin said:

I do.

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Joffrey was lost. He stripped and beat his fiancee in open court! Threatened Dontos with death for making a mockery of himself. 

This king took a crossbow to his constituents who were begging for food.

Joffrey was the worst, by far

 

15 hours ago, frenin said:

Sorry, don't know, the whole burning people alive thing and getting aroused by it, the paranoia, the enemies everywhere, the whole burning KL, him believing that his wife had cheated on him because she had miscarriages, , torturing mistresses and so on.

 

I mean, the moment Joff decides that is about goddam time KL has its new green painting, you can start comparing them.

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

 Its a possibility

13 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Just as rape or you know, the good ol Stockholm syndrome.

 

 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Did Aerys murder more then the average Westerosi king? Or even lord? And the grooming, long nails long hair, well.... He did get murdered, by his own guard

I don't know if he murdered more than the average but he certainly was more sadistic about it. The thing that sets people like him, Joff, Ramsay etc apart from people like Robert to me is the way they are killing people. The way he murdered Brandon & Rickard is especially gruesome. Robert is content to order others to kill children (which is absolutely horrific) but Robert could not bring himself to kill them because he is selfish, entitled, & arrogant but he doesn't find pleasure in the pain of others. That takes a special kind of crazy IMO. 

The grooming was because he was afraid of blades & yeah he did get murdered by his own KG but it wasn't because of a slip of a blade. It was done purposefully to keep him from burning all the small folk. He brought it on himself. Had he not behaved like a mad man he wouldn't have been killed. 

I've always liked & toyed with the idea that BR or Bran or someone with those powers were whispering to Aerys - enough to make him paranoid & crazy but not enough for him to actually do anything about it. For instance, they could have told him or shown him he would die being cut by a blade. He then avoids all sharp objects, driving himself crazy, & bringing about the instance where he is killed by the blade. Like a self fulfilling prophecy. On the other side of that if he had never been told he would die being cut by a blade, he would never have become obsessed with avoiding them, never went mad, & thus never got killed. I'm just spitballing & I know there was more to him going mad than an obsession with avoiding blades but the scenario could work for anything. He hears whispers he is going to be betrayed so he becomes obsessed with someone betraying him, seeing enemies in every shadow, driving himself mad, & thus becoming betrayed. Same thing - if he hadn't been told he was going to be betrayed, he wouldn't have become obsessed with it, wouldn't have went mad, & wouldn't have gotten betrayed. Anyway I don't have any evidence for it I just like the idea. 

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I agree Aerys was mad, I do not think he was a solid 10 though. He was coherent, for example. While his sons speech was babbled.

Which son's speech was babbled? I think Aerys slid into his craziness. He didn't start out at a 10 but he was rapidly approaching it if he wasn't there. 

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

like the idea that the realm was in trouble and Robert and co made it worse. I think itd be fitting if the whole world believes Aerys was nuts except his daughter who in turn becomes nuts and follows in the footprints of the story of her father.

Yeah for sure. I mean, in a nutshell it's true. Robert & Co didn't do much good for the realm as a whole. They did remove a sadistic tyrant though. I think, like you said before, some of them (Ned) probably did it with intentions on making the realm a better place. While I don't think Robert set out to make the realm a worse place, I don't think bettering the realm was his main objective either. 

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Im just stubborn lol, unless I see something truly convincing, Id give Aerys like a 6.

haha! I'll compromise & settle on an 8, since like you said, he was still speaking & communicating coherently. 

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Theres the times of the when Selmy crossed sworda with Simon Toyne. He thinks he fought him in a tourney after he killed him. 

I've not heard about this.  Is it possible it was a GRRM mistake & not a Barristan mistake? 

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Also his recollection of leaving Joffrey to find Dany is more similar to getting fired and looking for Viserys.

What do you mean? Like he told Dany he left Joffrey to come find her when truthfully he was fired & went looking for Viserys? 

He was certainly let go & did not leave the KG willingly. I can't remember if he would have known Viserys was dead by that point or not. What exactly does he say to Dany? I can look it up, just thought if you knew off the top of your head it would be easier. 

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

“My father was content to wait for the day that Prince Viserys found his army.”

"Your father?"

"Prince Doran." He sank back onto one knee. "Your Grace, I have the honor to be Quentyn Martell, a prince of Dorne and your most leal subject."

Dany laughed.

The Dornish prince flushed red, whilst her own court and counselors gave her puzzled looks. "Radiance?" said Skahaz Shavepate, in the Ghiscari tongue. "Why do you laugh?"

"They call him frog, " she said, "and we have just learned why. In the Seven Kingdoms there are children's tales of frogs who turn into enchanted princes when kissed by their true love." Smiling at the Dornish knights, she switched back to the Common Tongue. "Tell me, Prince Quentyn, are you enchanted?"

.

Lol good old Dany

.

Ser Gerris punched a wall. "I told him it was folly. I begged him to go home. Your bitch of a queen had no use for him, any man could see that. He crossed the world to offer her his love and fealty, and she laughed in his face."

"She never laughed," said Selmy. "If you knew her, you would know that."

This is definitely interesting. Do you think Barristan truly thinks Dany didn't laugh? This does kind of show ole Barry is willing to form his memory around what he would like to believe about the person rather than what the person truly does. But others have commented on Aerys's irrational actions as well. There might be some clouds where Barry's memory is concerned but he isn't the only one that has seen Aerys in action. 

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Because hes mad? lol

haha! or are we mad for reading it? 

 

We're all mad here... 

[Hugorfonics]

6 hours ago, frenin said:

Robert never claims he did what he did to oppress tyranny or put a stop to child murder, i still don't know who those children were, his priorities were, getting out alive, getting Lyanna back, killing Rhaegar, killing Targs.

Idk who the kids are either lol. Maybe Ned and Robert themselves? What were they, mid 20s? Idk...

If his priority was truly Lyanna then hed be at the ToJ, not in KL pardoning Varys and Jaime. If it were to kill all Targs then Viserys and Dany would be dead, not spared and incarcerated.

Stannis says he often wondered why his brothers wanted the IT so desperately, Robert knew his end game 

6 hours ago, frenin said:

I do.

Do you believe what the Mage told Sam?

6 hours ago, frenin said:

Just as rape or you know, the good ol Stockholm syndrome.

So Lynanna reminds me of Arya. I sometimes think what would Arya do if she were Jeyne Poole, probably something violent.

We should assume Lyanna cant properly scrap like her niece, despite Brans vision of her beating up Ned (Ben?) Or the story and assumption of the Laughing Tree.

But theres some level of fight in her, thats obvious. Whats a fact is that she could ride, as Harwin noted.

So for her to be straight kidnapped is unlikely, and these Starks are nothing but stubborn, I doubt Stockholm could do its magic.

However anything's really feasible

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't know if he murdered more than the average but he certainly was more sadistic about it. The thing that sets people like him, Joff, Ramsay etc apart from people like Robert to me is the way they are killing people. The way he murdered Brandon & Rickard is especially gruesome. Robert is content to order others to kill children (which is absolutely horrific) but Robert could not bring himself to kill them because he is selfish, entitled, & arrogant but he doesn't find pleasure in the pain of others. That takes a special kind of crazy IMO. 

Im not entirely sure how much Aerys enjoyed killing, but Sandor says its a nice past time. The thing is if Aerys was alone in his ways of killing itd strike as more monumental. Instead Euron drowns traitors while Stannis burns them, and some cannibals (who ate the dead). Victarion wishes he could do both. 

 

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The grooming was because he was afraid of blades & yeah he did get murdered by his own KG but it wasn't because of a slip of a blade. It was done purposefully to keep him from burning all the small folk. He brought it on himself. Had he not behaved like a mad man he wouldn't have been killed. 

I've always liked & toyed with the idea that BR or Bran or someone with those powers were whispering to Aerys - enough to make him paranoid & crazy but not enough for him to actually do anything about it. For instance, they could have told him or shown him he would die being cut by a blade. He then avoids all sharp objects, driving himself crazy, & bringing about the instance where he is killed by the blade. Like a self fulfilling prophecy. On the other side of that if he had never been told he would die being cut by a blade, he would never have become obsessed with avoiding them, never went mad, & thus never got killed. I'm just spitballing & I know there was more to him going mad than an obsession with avoiding blades but the scenario could work for anything. He hears whispers he is going to be betrayed so he becomes obsessed with someone betraying him, seeing enemies in every shadow, driving himself mad, & thus becoming betrayed. Same thing - if he hadn't been told he was going to be betrayed, he wouldn't have become obsessed with it, wouldn't have went mad, & wouldn't have gotten betrayed. Anyway I don't have any evidence for it I just like the idea. 

Thats my theory on Cersei. Shes worried about the two prophecies. So she did her best to destroy Tyrion, this just angers the Imp. 

Similarly her feud with Margery will only weaken the IT for sweet Sansa.

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

but it wasn't because of a slip of a blade. It was done purposefully to keep him from burning all the small folk.

Ive often wondered about Jaimes noble act. Saving the city inst just for the smallfolk, his father and their western bannermen were there too, as was Jaime. (Regardless of self preservation, its the correct move)

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Had he not behaved like a mad man he wouldn't have been killed. 

Always drunk? (Lol sorry, had to)

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I've always liked & toyed with the idea that BR or Bran or someone with those powers were whispering to Aerys - enough to make him paranoid & crazy but not enough for him to actually do anything about it.

Perhaps Bran. For Brynden it seems cruel, isnt Aerys his nephew? Then again didnt he kill some of his nephews? Lol maybe thats right up his alley actually

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Which son's speech was babbled? I think Aerys slid into his craziness. He didn't start out at a 10 but he was rapidly approaching it if he wasn't there. 

Viserys at the end. Who totally spiraled out, Dany marvelled at him "who was once her brother".

The crown does things to your mind

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

haha! I'll compromise & settle on an 8, since like you said, he was still speaking & communicating coherently. 

Done and done! 8 it is

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I've not heard about this.  Is it possible it was a GRRM mistake & not a Barristan mistake? 

I believe there is an SSM where he says its not a mistake on his part, though ive heard this from the grape vine and have not seen the SSM myself.

I also believe theyre both referenced in asos, so being the same book id say its unlikely its GRRM.

When I get a chance ill look into it

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He was certainly let go & did not leave the KG willingly. I can't remember if he would have known Viserys was dead by that point or not. What exactly does he say to Dany? I can look it up, just thought if you knew off the top of your head it would be easier. 

In asos. When Dany asks why he served Robert. I thinks its right before Merren at the end.

So Joff finds out that the begger king died in acok (early) but Barri is dismissed in agot. Though idk how long he was in KL before he went east. Its possible he learned of Dany before

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

This is definitely interesting. Do you think Barristan truly thinks Dany didn't laugh? This does kind of show ole Barry is willing to form his memory around what he would like to believe about the person rather than what the person truly does. But others have commented on Aerys's irrational actions as well. There might be some clouds where Barry's memory is concerned but he isn't the only one that has seen Aerys in action. 

I do think that. So if Barry remembers what he wants, well he took Roberts pardon and led his KG. Its hard to justify that, but when he convinces himself that Aerys was what Robert says he was, the justification gets easier. 

Barry aint the only one, Jaimes recollections are the closest we have to accurate Aerys memories. A total monster sure but more evil then crazy imo. 

If we entertain the idea of Baratheon propaganda (which i urge, because of Briennes quote) then the memories of Aerys from Robert or Tywin automatically becomes suspect

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

haha! or are we mad for reading it? 

 

We're all mad here... 

No objection here lol

[frenin]

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Idk who the kids are either lol. Maybe Ned and Robert themselves? What were they, mid 20s? Idk...

If his priority was truly Lyanna then hed be at the ToJ, not in KL pardoning Varys and Jaime. If it were to kill all Targs then Viserys and Dany would be dead, not spared and incarcerated.

Stannis says he often wondered why his brothers wanted the IT so desperately, Robert knew his end game

 

1. The kids part doesn't make sense imo, seems a post hoc Ned makes to save Dany.
2. You talk as if Lyanna's whereabouts were known, don't really understand the latter.
3. Says Stannis, the one who wants the Throne so desperatly, lmao.

 

 

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Do you believe what the Mage told Sam?

10 hours ago, frenin said:

People act as if the Mage doesn't have his own bias.

 

 

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

So Lynanna reminds me of Arya. I sometimes think what would Arya do if she were Jeyne Poole, probably something violent.

We should assume Lyanna cant properly scrap like her niece, despite Brans vision of her beating up Ned (Ben?) Or the story and assumption of the Laughing Tree.

But theres some level of fight in her, thats obvious. Whats a fact is that she could ride, as Harwin noted.

So for her to be straight kidnapped is unlikely, and these Starks are nothing but stubborn, I doubt Stockholm could do its magic.

However anything's really feasible

People give a 14 year old magical traits, lmao 6 veteran knights approach her and she's crewed as simple as that.

Btw, you just have to take a look about the love Dany develops for Drogo to see the wonders of Stockholm.

 

 

 

[kissdbyfire]

7 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I've not heard about this.  Is it possible it was a GRRM mistake & not a Barristan mistake? 

There’s nothing there at all. Selmy doesn’t think about Toyne ever, not once. We learn that Selmy killed Toyne in ASoS Jaime VIII, when Jaime is writing Selmy’s page n the White Book.

“Ser Barristan of House Selmy. Firstborn son of Ser Lyonel Selmy of Harvest Hall. Served as squire to Ser Manfred Swann. Named “the Bold” in his 10th year, when he donned borrowed armor to appear as a mystery knight in the tourney at Blackhaven, where he was defeated and unmasked by Duncan, Prince of Dragonflies. Knighted in his 16th year by King Aegon V Targaryen, after performing great feats of prowess as a mystery knight in the winter tourney at King’s Landing, defeating Prince Duncan the Small and Ser Duncan the Tall, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Slew Maelys the Monstrous, last of the Blackfyre Pretenders, in single combat during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Defeated Lormelle Long Lance and Cedrik Storm, the Bastard of Bronzegate. Named to the Kingsguard in his 23rd year, by Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower. Defended the passage against all challengers in the tourney of the Silver Bridge. Victor in the mêlée at Maidenpool. Brought King Aerys II to safety during the Defiance of Duskendale, despite an arrow wound in the chest. Avenged the murder of his Sworn Brother, Ser Gwayne Gaunt. Rescued Lady Jeyne Swann and her septa from the Kingswood Brotherhood, defeating Simon Toyne and the Smiling Knight, and slaying the former. In the Oldtown tourney, defeated and unmasked the mystery knight Blackshield, revealing him as the Bastard of Uplands. Sole champion of Lord Steffon’s tourney at Storm’s End, whereat he unhorsed Lord Robert Baratheon, Prince Oberyn Martell, Lord Leyton Hightower, Lord Jon Connington, Lord Jason Mallister, and Prince Rhaegar Targaryen.”

 

[Hugorfonics]

On 12/20/2019 at 7:14 PM, kissdbyfire said:

There’s nothing there at all. Selmy doesn’t think about Toyne ever, not once. We learn that Selmy killed Toyne in ASoS Jaime VIII, when Jaime is writing Selmy’s page n the White Book.

Theres something.

.

Men said that he loved his harp much better than his lance."

"He won some tourneys, surely," said Dany, disappointed.

"When he was young, His Grace rode brilliantly in a tourney at Storm's End, defeating Lord Steffon Baratheon, Lord Jason Mallister, the Red Viper of Dorne, and a mystery knight who proved to be the infamous Simon Toyne, chief of the kingswood outlaws. He broke twelve lances against Ser Arthur Dayne that day."

"Was he the champion, then?"

"No, Your Grace. That honor went to another knight of the Kingsguard, who unhorsed Prince Rhaegar in the final tilt."

.

 

Ok, so Rhegar unhorsed Toyne, Mallister and Martell but lost to Selmy at Storms End

 

.

unsurprised, to find that Ser Barristan had taken the time to record his own dismissal before leaving the castle.

Ser Barristan of House Selmy. Firstborn son of Ser Lyonel Selmy of Harvest Hall. Served as squire to Ser Manfred Swann. Named "the Bold" in his 10th year, when he donned borrowed armor to appear as a mystery knight in the tourney at Blackhaven, where he was defeated and unmasked by Duncan, Prince of Dragonflies. Knighted in his 16th year by King Aegon V Targaryen, after performing great feats of prowess as a mystery knight in the winter tourney at King's Landing, defeating Prince Duncan the Small and Ser Duncan the Tall, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Slew Maelys the Monstrous, last of the Blackfyre Pretenders, in single combat during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Defeated Lormelle Long Lance and Cedrik Storm, the Bastard of Bronzegate. Named to the Kingsguard in his 23rd year, by Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower. Defended the passage against all challengers in the tourney of the Silver Bridge. Victor in the mêlee at Maidenpool. Brought King Aerys II to safety during the Defiance of Duskendale, despite an arrow wound in the chest. Avenged the murder of his Sworn Brother, Ser Gwayne Gaunt. Rescued Lady Jeyne Swann and her septa from the Kingswood Brotherhood, defeating Simon Toyne and the Smiling Knight, and slaying the former. In the Oldtown tourney, defeated and unmasked the mystery knight Blackshield, revealing him as the Bastard of Uplands. Sole champion of Lord Steffon's tourney at Storm's End, whereat he unhorsed Lord Robert Baratheon, Prince Oberyn Martell, Lord Leyton Hightower, Lord Jon Connington, Lord Jason Mallister, and Prince Rhaegar Targaryen. Wounded by arrow, spear, and sword at the Battle of the Trident whilst fighting beside his Sworn Brothers and Rhaegar Prince of Dragonstone. Pardoned, and named Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, by King Robert I Baratheon. Served in the honor guard that brought Lady Cersei of House Lannister to King's Landing to wed King Robert. Led the attack on Old Wyk during Balon Greyjoy's Rebellion. Champion of the tourney at King's Landing, in his 57th year. Dismissed from service by King Joffrey I Baratheon in his 61st year, for reasons of advanced age.

The earlier part of Ser Barristan's storied career had been entered by Ser Gerold Hightower in a big forceful hand. Selmy's own smaller and more elegant writing took over with the account of his wounding on the Trident.

.

 

So everything before the Trident was Hightower. Which is specifically the tourney at Storms End that Selmy wins. 

If we are to assume that the white book is chronological, which we should because Selmys various tourney wins are sprinkled throughout, then theres something off about Selmys story.

How could Rhegar have fought Toyne when Selmy already killed him?

And to a lesser extent how could Rhegar have been the one to unhorse Mallister and Martell when Selmy was the one to defeat them. In the Mystery Knight it shows that the looser of the tilt forevermore out of the tourney.