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Were Ned, Robert and Jon Arryn the villains of the rebellion?


divica

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7 hours ago, SeanF said:

But I don't think the rebels had clean hands.  I don't think that Tywin would have taken such a dangerous step as murdering Elia and her children, (Creggan Stark sentenced men to death for betraying Aegon II) without getting the green light from the rebel leaders.  Ned was kept out of the loop, but I strongly suspect that Robert, Hoster Tully, and Jon Arryn knew what was going to happen.  Tywin was, after all, richly rewarded for his foul deed.  We can guess what would have happened to Rhaella, Viserys, and Daenerys, had they fallen into the rebels' hands.

I think the timing is also interesting. He got to KL before the rebels and could end the war before the rebels had to siege KL and give time for the tyrells to do something, for elia and the children to run, for other loyalist to help...

Tywin arrived in KL exactly when he needed and did what was needed to end the war and his daughter became queen. It seems too convenient that it wasn t arranged somehow...

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6 minutes ago, divica said:

What I am saying is that because aerys saw conspiracies everywhere and used cruelty to try and stop them if he found out about a true conspiracy and acted to stop it then it is very easy for the conspirators to claim he was mad and imagining things.

Well, yeah it makes it easier. Someone who has no history of mad behavior likely isn't going to be accused of being mad. 

What I'm saying is regardless if it was easy for them to accuse him or not (they were not conspirators) the fact remains that Aerys was mad & saw conspiracies everywhere. So, even if, this one time, there was someone conspiring against him he isn't justified in his behavior. Also there is pretty much no evidence that anyone was "conspiring" against him. It appears Rhaegar wanted to find a peaceful way to remove Aerys from the throne but that is hardly "conspiring" against him. 

9 minutes ago, divica said:

Whatever he acused ned and robert becomes a footnote in his list of conspiracies wether it was true or not because it is easy for the rebels to say it was false.

Here is the thing though, we can only operate on the text we are given, otherwise we are just guessing. We can use the facts we are given & to an extent we can make an educated guess on some things. We know Aerys was mad & cruel - that's been well established. We also know Ned is honorable, also well established. We know Aerys wanted to behead Ned & Robert but aren't specifically given the reason. We lack any evidence that Aerys had some justifiable reason to want their heads. We also know Aerys has killed other people horrifically & without justification. 

So, given these things lets make an educated guess as to which is more likely: 

1. That Aerys had some justifiable reason to execute the people he did but not only did he not share it with anyone but GRRM also did not hint to it. 

or 

2. That Aerys was paranoid & mad & wanted to wipe out anyone he thought would oppose him or avenge those he wrongfully killed? 

 

I gotta go with # 2. 

14 minutes ago, divica said:

And I am not saying aerys was fit to rule. But that the acts that led to the rebelion might have been justified. It is like a criminal being punished for a diferente crime than those he comited.

Anything is possible but we aren't given the context to form this opinion. So "It isn't impossible" is about as much likelihood we can give it. We are given repeated accounts & facts that lead us to believe Aerys committed the acts that lead to the rebellion unjustifiably & nothing indicating he may have been correct about this conspiracy. 

16 minutes ago, divica said:

But it shows that some of his madness is justified and sometimes right….

It shows no such thing. If someone is behaving irrationally & harming others because he believes others are out to get him, so the police come & lock him in a padded cell somewhere so that he cannot harm others anymore that doesn't mean this person's madness was justified or right. It means the person caused their own downfall. 

Had Aerys not behaved irrationally & harmed others Rhaegar would have had no reason to want to remove him from the throne. 

18 minutes ago, divica said:

Him marrying 2 of his kids to lords paramounts kids destabilize the targaryen power on the realm.

How does this destabilize the targaryen power when these marriages have occurred under every other Targ ruler & did not destabilize the power? 

Furthermore him marrying 2 of his kids to lord paramounts kids is exactly what every single parent, of noble birth, in the entire realm does. Every one of them. They all look to make matches for their children. There is absolutely nothing odd or strange about that. 

20 minutes ago, divica said:

What would happen if rickard wanted to act against the wishes of the king?

The same thing that always happens when someone wants to act against the wishes of the king. He would be punished unless he had enough force to rebel. 

29 minutes ago, divica said:

Wouldn t the riverlands and stormlands help him instead of the king because he is familly?

Maybe, maybe not but Aerys can't go killing people for marrying off their children. 

So because Aerys thinks Rickard might be plotting something & thinks that the riverlands & stormlands might help Rickard if he is plotting something he gets to burn him alive? I say not. 

32 minutes ago, divica said:

I agree. But we don t know what really happened. Did he talk to some of the prisoners before killing them? did varys confirm the acusations with his spies? If he had enough evidence I think he is justified to kill traitors without a trial. He is the king and should be able to kill people that want to kill him...

If he had enough or any evidence wouldn't we have heard of it? Also, if he had all this evidence wouldn't he want to share it with the realm so they don't think he is just crazy & killing people over his own paranoia? Otherwise he runs the risk of the realm believing he is mad & killing people unjustified which can lead to .... rebellion. 

He is justified in the sense that he is King & his word is law but when you do things like this you run the risk of the people you rule rising up against you - & rightfully so. 

35 minutes ago, divica said:

But why kill ned and robert and spare benjen and stannis? THAT is my problem.

Presumably because Benjen is not the Lord of WF & Stannis is not betrothed to Lyanna. That's assuming there is any rationale to it at all. 

Or maybe because Benjen is not the best friend of the man who is betrothed to Lyanna. Maybe Benjen was next on his list or maybe he thought Benjen was more pliable than Ned. 

If you believe there was indeed a conspiracy why do you believe he would want to kill Ned & Robert but not Benjen & Stannis? Whether or not he knew of said conspiracy Benjen & Stannis would still fight along side their families. 

41 minutes ago, divica said:

You can t say aerys wants to kill ned because he might want revenge for killing brandon and say he wouldn t want to kill benjen for the same reasons. And if you say aerys wanted to kill robert instead of first trying to buy his loalty/aceptance that he lost lyanna then he would also want to kill stannis because he would be in the same situation as ned (after he kills robert)...

I mean at this point we are grasping at straws because we don't know. I think the most likely scenario is that he wanted to kill Ned & Robert because he is bat shit crazy & they were next on his list. 

42 minutes ago, divica said:

The only way to justifiy this behavious is saying aerys was batshit crazy… But aerys was paranoind and used cruelty to stop his conspiracies from happening. He wasn t really batshit crazy… There was some logic behind his actions…

For there to be logic behind his actions & for him to NOT be bat shit crazy there would have to evidence - evidence that a reasonable person would see as indicative of some conspiracy or plot to dethrone him. What evidence is there that a reasonable person would agree indicates there was a plot to dethrone him - prior to him going on his killing spree. Secondly, for it to be true that he was not bat shit crazy & operated to some degree of logic it would have to be true that he behaved in a logical manner. He did not. He did not behave like a sound man with his wife, with his court, with his realm. A logical, sound person, upon discovering evidence that some of the Lords he rules over are plotting to dethrone him does not start burning people to his crazy hearts desire. 

You do know he wanted to burn the entire city of KL right? Burn them all remember? What is the justification in that if he isn't bat shit crazy & there is logic behind his actions? 

 

47 minutes ago, divica said:

He was named the mad king by his enemies… Obviously they would name him something like that.

I'm not sure who named him the mad king (do the books say where the name originated?) but the name was aptly given. The man stopped bathing, stopped eating for fear of being poisoned, didn't cut his nails - does this sound to you like someone who didn't earn that nickname? 

 

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33 minutes ago, divica said:

What I am saying is that because aerys saw conspiracies everywhere and used cruelty to try and stop them if he found out about a true conspiracy and acted to stop it then it is very easy for the conspirators to claim he was mad and imagining things. Whatever he acused ned and robert becomes a footnote in his list of conspiracies wether it was true or not because it is easy for the rebels to say it was false.

Not just “very easy”, it’s a fact. 

33 minutes ago, divica said:

And I am not saying aerys was fit to rule. But that the acts that led to the rebelion might have been justified. It is like a criminal being punished for a diferente crime than those he comited.

No, that’s just plain wrong, as many have already explained. IF, and it’s a huge “if”, there was some sort of conspiracy involving Rickard Stark, Hoster Tully, Jon Arryn (and whoever else) and Aerys learned about it somehow, he should have had them all tried and, if convicted, executed. But that’s not what he did. He summoned these lords to KL, and summarily murdered Brandon and Rickard in an extremely cruel and sick way, b/c he got off on stuff like that. That’s why we learn about his predilections from other PoVs as well. And in doing so, he failed as a king. If a king decides to do whatever he wants, however he wants, he has to be ready to face the consequences. Because he is the sovereign, but his vassals have the right to rise up against him. And that’s what happened. 

33 minutes ago, divica said:

But it shows that some of his madness is justified and sometimes right….

No, it doesn’t. 

33 minutes ago, divica said:

Him marrying 2 of his kids to lords paramounts kids destabilize the targaryen power on the realm. What would happen if rickard wanted to act against the wishes of the king? Wouldn t the riverlands and stormlands help him instead of the king because he is familly?

Who are you talking about here?

And why would it destabilise the Targs? Marriage alliances are made all the time, literally, all the freaking time. 

33 minutes ago, divica said:

I agree. But we don t know what really happened. Did he talk to some of the prisoners before killing them? did varys confirm the acusations with his spies? If he had enough evidence I think he is justified to kill traitors without a trial. He is the king and should be able to kill people that want to kill him...

Only that’s not how it works. Clearly, Aerys agrees w/ you, but look at what happened. Again, because vassals can and will act if they feel the king isn’t fulfilling his part of the deal. 

33 minutes ago, divica said:

But why kill ned and robert and spare benjen and stannis? THAT is my problem.

You’re answering your own question there. 

 

33 minutes ago, divica said:

The only way to justifiy this behavious is saying aerys was batshit crazy… But aerys was paranoind and used cruelty to stop his conspiracies from happening. He wasn t really batshit crazy… There was some logic behind his actions…

Just because you’re saying there was logic doesn’t mean there was any. Again, that’s why we get all we get on his madness, from so many different sources. 

33 minutes ago, divica said:

He was named the mad king by his enemies… Obviously they would name him something like that.

:rofl:

 

33 minutes ago, divica said:

But you can justify him killing those people if they were part of the conspiracy. Why kill robert and ned and spare benjen and stannis? The younger brothers aren t that young… Benjen is basically in the same position as ned… Why kill one and spare the other?

No, I can’t justify his actions. Had he given these men fair trials, then maybe. 

33 minutes ago, divica said:

Being mad isn t a reason. When he killed someone he said why he killed them. People might not agree to his reasons but there is some logic behing his actions...

Did he? Can you provide a quote please?

33 minutes ago, divica said:

He didn t just wake up and decided to kill important nobles… He wanted their head because in his mind they did something to desserve it. What does aerys think they did?

How can you know that? 

33 minutes ago, divica said:

But was aerys irrational? Did his conspiracies lack logic?

Yes and yes. 

33 minutes ago, divica said:

There is a diference between being mad because he believed that he had enemies everywhere and being mad because he acted irrational.

He did both. 

33 minutes ago, divica said:

And with our present information the only way to justify aerys actions is that is was completly irrational… While if we assume there was some conspiracy his action not only make sense but fit his cruel way of thinking.

For the last time, no. Just because he was the king doesn’t mean he can do whatever the fuck he wants. That’s not how it works. 

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13 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

1. That Aerys had some justifiable reason to execute the people he did but not only did he not share it with anyone but GRRM also did not hint to it. 

or 

2. That Aerys was paranoid & mad & wanted to wipe out anyone he thought would oppose him or avenge those he wrongfully killed? 

 

I gotta go with # 2.

But 2 is a a reason for aerys to behave the way he does. He might be right or wrong for acting because of number 2, but it is a justification for his actions. And then we have the problem that for some reason he doesn t want benjen and stannis dead… If he was following option 2 he should also want these 2 dead.

16 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Anything is possible but we aren't given the context to form this opinion. So "It isn't impossible" is about as much likelihood we can give it. We are given repeated accounts & facts that lead us to believe Aerys committed the acts that lead to the rebellion unjustifiably & nothing indicating he may have been correct about this conspiracy. 

And how many pro targ opinions have we heard about the rebelion? How many people that might have known what really happened in KL after brandon arrived? The only person I can think about is Jaime and we have no idea how much information he had access to or if he believed a word aerys said. A lot of what happened in KL in that time is not explained...

21 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

How does this destabilize the targaryen power when these marriages have occurred under every other Targ ruler & did not destabilize the power? 

Furthermore him marrying 2 of his kids to lord paramounts kids is exactly what every single parent, of noble birth, in the entire realm does. Every one of them. They all look to make matches for their children. There is absolutely nothing odd or strange about that. 

Can you provide exemples of lords Paramount marrying their kids to other lords Paramount during targaryen reign? Because I am pretty sure the norm if for Nobles to marry their kids to their noble vassals and ocasionally nobles from other regions (not lords paramour).

23 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Maybe, maybe not but Aerys can't go killing people for marrying off their children. 

So because Aerys thinks Rickard might be plotting something & thinks that the riverlands & stormlands might help Rickard if he is plotting something he gets to burn him alive? I say not. 

Obviously not. And he isn t burned because of his kids marriages. But the fact is that those marriages give him power to have 2 kingdoms support him. It makes him powerful and destabilizes the power of the king over him. If rickard wanted to rebel having those aliances would be a good first step.

26 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

If he had enough or any evidence wouldn't we have heard of it? Also, if he had all this evidence wouldn't he want to share it with the realm so they don't think he is just crazy & killing people over his own paranoia? Otherwise he runs the risk of the realm believing he is mad & killing people unjustified which can lead to .... rebellion. 

He is justified in the sense that he is King & his word is law but when you do things like this you run the risk of the people you rule rising up against you - & rightfully so. 

OK.How many people believe stannis is telling the truth about joffrey being a bastard and that he is the rightful heir? If stannis is defeated who is going to talk about rumors of joff being a bastard after 15 years?

Stannis will just be known as a traitor that wanted his nephew's crown. And we actually know it isn t true...

Who knows what he shared with the realm? We simply lack information to have a definite decision...

30 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Presumably because Benjen is not the Lord of WF & Stannis is not betrothed to Lyanna. That's assuming there is any rationale to it at all. 

Or maybe because Benjen is not the best friend of the man who is betrothed to Lyanna. Maybe Benjen was next on his list or maybe he thought Benjen was more pliable than Ned. 

If you believe there was indeed a conspiracy why do you believe he would want to kill Ned & Robert but not Benjen & Stannis? Whether or not he knew of said conspiracy Benjen & Stannis would still fight along side their families. 

If there was a conspiracy aerys would want them dead because he believes they are part of the conspiracy. Robert was going to marry lyanna be an integral part of the conspiracy with the north. From his pov it is unlikely that rickard would agree to the marriage without bringing robert into the rebellion. And Ned was robert's best friend, rickard's son and supported the marriage. Probably aerys even thinks it was ned that convinced robert to marry lyanna when they were in the vale (he looks really guilty). From his POV and given his paranoia it makes sense for aerys to want both of them dead while both benjen and stannis would remain alive because they aren t directly linked to the conspiracy...

 

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1 hour ago, divica said:

What I am saying is that because aerys saw conspiracies everywhere and used cruelty to try and stop them if he found out about a true conspiracy and acted to stop it then it is very easy for the conspirators to claim he was mad and imagining things. Whatever he acused ned and robert becomes a footnote in his list of conspiracies wether it was true or not because it is easy for the rebels to say it was false.

And I am not saying aerys was fit to rule. But that the acts that led to the rebelion might have been justified. It is like a criminal being punished for a diferente crime than those he comited.

Or that you know he was batshit crazy and  as far as we know, he didn't accuse Ned and  Robert of anything and  we know Ned and  Robert didn't have anything to do with a plot.

 

 

1 hour ago, divica said:

But it shows that some of his madness is justified and sometimes right….

And then he becomes convinced Jaime is the Kotlt...

 

 

1 hour ago, divica said:

Him marrying 2 of his kids to lords paramounts kids destabilize the targaryen power on the realm. What would happen if rickard wanted to act against the wishes of the king? Wouldn t the riverlands and stormlands help him instead of the king because he is familly?

Says who?? The idea that it destabilize the Targ power  comes completely out of the fandom.

 

 

1 hour ago, divica said:

I agree. But we don t know what really happened. Did he talk to some of the prisoners before killing them? did varys confirm the acusations with his spies? If he had enough evidence I think he is justified to kill traitors without a trial. He is the king and should be able to kill people that want to kill him...

No, he's not. That's why he was killed, because he's not justified to do what he did.

Why didn't he say anything tho?? Why the only ones talking about such plot are the fans??

 

 

1 hour ago, divica said:

But why kill ned and robert and spare benjen and stannis? THAT is my problem.

You can t say aerys wants to kill ned because he might want revenge for killing brandon and say he wouldn t want to kill benjen for the same reasons. And if you say aerys wanted to kill robert instead of first trying to buy his loalty/aceptance that he lost lyanna then he would also want to kill stannis because he would be in the same situation as ned (after he kills robert)...

The only way to justifiy this behavious is saying aerys was batshit crazy… But aerys was paranoind and used cruelty to stop his conspiracies from happening. He wasn t really batshit crazy… There was some logic behind his actions…

How could he kill them?? Stannis was safe at Storm's End and  Benjen was safe at the North, Ned and  Robert, the Lords, are in the Vale and  completely at old Jon's mercy.

 

1 hour ago, divica said:

He was named the mad king by his enemies… Obviously they would name him something like that.

He was named the mad King by enemies and  friends alike. Wait, are you saying that Aerys wasn't mad??

 

1 hour ago, divica said:

Just like being mad and paranoid doesn t mean that sometimes he isn t  right in his conspiracies. This is the main question. Were aerys actions because of madness or did he actually have reasons to believe there was a conspiracy agains him?

Madness.

 

1 hour ago, divica said:

But you can justify him killing those people if they were part of the conspiracy. Why kill robert and ned and spare benjen and stannis? The younger brothers aren t that young… Benjen is basically in the same position as ned… Why kill one and spare the other?

Location, Benjen is also a child and  they are in two of the strongest Castles in the Realm, besides Benjen was in the North, ie, that path was literally impossible.

Btw... Ned and  Robert weren't part of any conspiracy. Seriously, we've been in Ned's mind, we've seen him talking with Robert about the Targs, this idea is just nonsense.

 

 

1 hour ago, divica said:

Being mad isn t a reason. When he killed someone he said why he killed them. People might not agree to his reasons but there is some logic behing his actions...

He didn t just wake up and decided to kill important nobles… He wanted their head because in his mind they did something to desserve it. What does aerys think they did?

Why did he killed Chelsted again?? What were the charges  against Ned and  Robert??

 

1 hour ago, divica said:

 But was aerys irrational? Did his conspiracies lack logic?

Yes and  yes.

 

 

1 hour ago, divica said:

There is a diference between being mad because he believed that he had enemies everywhere and being mad because he acted irrational. And with our present information the only way to justify aerys actions is that is was completly irrational… While if we assume there was some conspiracy his action not only make sense but fit his cruel way of thinkin

He was both, if we assume that there is natural order  in which for some to be great some might be slaves, we can also justify slavery...

Answer me, why no one and  why i say no one i mean no one, ever talks about a conspirancy?? Why this plot is entirely fanon?? Why non of the loyalists and  more importantly, Jaime and  Barri  B ever even hint it?? Why Aerys paranoia is not only enough to kill people but somehow turn the rebels into the "villains" of the Robellion.

 

 

Btw: Martin  himself has said that he would've supported the Robellion because of what Aerys pulled... You can put two and  two...

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18 minutes ago, divica said:

And how many pro targ opinions have we heard about the rebelion? How many people that might have known what really happened in KL after brandon arrived? The only person I can think about is Jaime and we have no idea how much information he had access to or if he believed a word aerys said. A lot of what happened in KL in that time is not explained...

ADwD, The Queensguard

“Barristan Selmy had known many kings. He had been born during the troubled reign of Aegon the Unlikely, beloved by the common folk, had received his knighthood at his hands. Aegon’s son Jaehaerys had bestowed the white cloak on him when he was three-and-twenty, after he slew Maelys the Monstrous during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. In that same cloak he had stood beside the Iron Throne as madness consumed Jaehaerys’s son Aerys. Stood, and saw, and heard, and yet did nothing.

“But no. That was not fair. He did his duty. Some nights, Ser Barristan wondered if he had not done that duty too well. He had sworn his vows before the eyes of gods and men, he could not in honor go against them … but the keeping of those vows had grown hard in the last years of King Aerys’s reign. He had seen things that it pained him to recall, and more than once he wondered how much of the blood was on his own hands. If he had not gone into Duskendale to rescue Aerys from Lord Darklyn’s dungeons, the king might well have died there as Tywin Lannister sacked the town. Then Prince Rhaegar would have ascended the Iron Throne, mayhaps to heal the realm. Duskendale had been his finest hour, yet the memory tasted bitter on his tongue.”

ADwD, The Lost Lord

“Not every man is what he seems, and a prince especially has good cause to be wary … but go too far down that road, and the mistrust can poison you, make you sour and fearful.” King Aerys was one such. By the end, even Rhaegar saw that plain enough. “You would do best to walk a middle course. Let men earn your trust with leal service … but when they do, be generous and openhearted.”
The boy nodded. “I will remember.”

ADwD, The Windblown

It runs in the blood. King Aerys II had been mad, all of Westeros knew that. He had exiled two of his Hands and burned a third. If Daenerys is as murdeous as her father, must I still marry her? Prince Doran had never spoken of that possibility.”

ETA: the above are not opinions on the Rebellion, but all come from pro-Targs and all clearly on the same page: Aerys was batshit crazy. 

 

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14 minutes ago, divica said:

But 2 is a a reason for aerys to behave the way he does. He might be right or wrong for acting because of number 2, but it is a justification for his actions. And then we have the problem that for some reason he doesn t want benjen and stannis dead… If he was following option 2 he should also want these 2 dead.

 

 

1) Robert and Ned were in a place that they could easily be seized. Stannis and Benjen were not. 

2) We don't know what Aerys actually wanted with Stannis and Benjen. Absence of evidence is not evidence.

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18 minutes ago, divica said:

But 2 is a a reason for aerys to behave the way he does. He might be right or wrong for acting because of number 2, but it is a justification for his actions

No, if it's wrong, it's not a justification for his actions. 

19 minutes ago, divica said:

And then we have the problem that for some reason he doesn t want benjen and stannis dead… If he was following option 2 he should also want these 2 dead.

Just because someone is mad & murderous doesn't mean they have to want to murder the whole family. If he were sane & there were indeed a legitimate conspiracy then he would probably want Benjen & Stannis dead. He is crazy & there isn't a legitimate conspiracy against him (prior to causing one himself) so he is calling for whoever's head the whispers tell him to. 

22 minutes ago, divica said:

Can you provide exemples of lords Paramount marrying their kids to other lords Paramount during targaryen reign?

What Lord Paramount was Brandon betrothed to? 

22 minutes ago, divica said:

Obviously not. And he isn t burned because of his kids marriages. 

The truth is we don't really know why he was burned but we can assume it was a combination of Aerys being mad (crazy) & mad (pissed off) about Brandon riding in wanting to fight Rhaegar. 

You are saying Aerys had legitimate cause to believe Rickard was marrying his children off to people in a strategic manner in order to dethrone Aerys & that is why his actions are justified. If that is true Rickard & Brandon were murdered over some marriages. 

 

24 minutes ago, divica said:

But the fact is that those marriages give him power to have 2 kingdoms support him. It makes him powerful and destabilizes the power of the king over him. If rickard wanted to rebel having those aliances would be a good first step

So what? Every time I wash my car it rains but I would completely wrong to believe me washing my car makes it rain. If you want to be justified in your actions you have to have some evidence. 

28 minutes ago, divica said:

OK.How many people believe stannis is telling the truth about joffrey being a bastard and that he is the rightful heir? If stannis is defeated who is going to talk about rumors of joff being a bastard after 15 years?

What is the point? You believe that the oral & written history are incorrect? Maybe they are but we have first hand accounts of Aerys's madness & a first hand account of him murdering Brandon & Rickard & wanting to burn the whole city. It doesn't even matter if he had reason to believe someone was plotting against him because he still isn't justified in his actions. 

31 minutes ago, divica said:

And how many pro targ opinions have we heard about the rebelion? How many people that might have known what really happened in KL after brandon arrived? The only person I can think about is Jaime and we have no idea how much information he had access to or if he believed a word aerys said. A lot of what happened in KL in that time is not explained...

Just because some things aren't explained does not mean we should negate the things that are explained. Do you really think GRRM has set up this whole "Mad King" thing just to say "Haha! Tricked ya! Aerys was actually right! And ya know that Ned I portrayed to be so honorable? He was actually the bad guy!" That would be ridiculous. 

Jaime was a member of the KG that Aerys kept close. He would know more than most. What he gives us is not a matter of his opinion as to what Aerys said. He gave us plain facts about the situation at hand. 

34 minutes ago, divica said:

there was a conspiracy aerys would want them dead because he believes they are part of the conspiracy

You are contradicting your self here. If there was a conspiracy (you are arguing there was) Aerys would want them dead (he doesn't) - so according to your own argument there is no conspiracy or else he would have wanted Stannis & Benjen dead also & he didn't. 

36 minutes ago, divica said:

Robert was going to marry lyanna be an integral part of the conspiracy with the north. From his pov it is unlikely that rickard would agree to the marriage without bringing robert into the rebellion. And Ned was robert's best friend, rickard's son and supported the marriage. Probably aerys even thinks it was ned that convinced robert to marry lyanna when they were in the vale (he looks really guilty). From his POV and given his paranoia it makes sense for aerys to want both of them dead while both benjen and stannis would remain alive because they aren t directly linked to the conspiracy...

I don't even know what you are saying here. You are talking in circles. 

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1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

can't belive this is still going on. Aerys was mad and there is no doubt about it.

How mad are we talking?

Like Dany? Hears voices, walks into fire, runs a thriving kingdom because of her brilliance

Like Lysa? Quick to outbursts, sees slights around every corner, runs a decently managed kingdom because of her advisors brilliance

Or like Patchface? Whos just totally off the deep end

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

Not everything needs to be a conspiracy.

No, but Roberts rebellion should be

Quote

"Unspeakable?" the king roared. "What Aerys did to your brother Brandon was unspeakable. The way your lord father died, that was unspeakable. And Rhaegar … how many times do you think he raped your sister? How many hundreds of times?" His voice had grown so loud that his horse whinnied nervously beneath him. The king jerked the reins hard, quieting the animal, and pointed an angry finger at Ned. "I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on, until they are as dead as their dragons, and then I will piss on their graves."

Im sorry, which one was the mad king?

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10 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

How mad are we talking?

Certifiable batshit nutjob crazy. 

10 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Like Dany? Hears voices, walks into fire, runs a thriving kingdom because of her brilliance

I wasn’t aware Dany is mad. 

10 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Like Lysa? Quick to outbursts, sees slights around every corner, runs a decently managed kingdom because of her advisors brilliance

Some similarities here, quick to take offence and had Tywin doing the ruling, and that’s why (mostly) he lasted as long as he did. But I don’t recall Lysa as being particularly cruel, nor that she got sexually aroused by watching people in pain. 

10 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Or like Patchface? Whos just totally off the deep end

Well, we don’t really know much about Patchface, do we? 

10 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

No, but Roberts rebellion should be

Why?

10 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Im sorry, which one was the mad king?

Aerys, w/o a doubt. Robert is deeply flawed and misguided, he got so much wrong that trying to make a list of his fuck ups would take hours. But he very obviously wasn’t mad, whereas Aerys very, very clearly was. 

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20 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

How mad are we talking?

 

In a scale of 1 to 10 probably around 11... they guy was talking about raping the wife of his most powerful bannerman, made a marriage for his son but decided not to go, burned people without reason and got horny about it... yeap nice chap all around :).

 

22 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

No, but Roberts rebellion should be

The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me. A crown ... it was the girl I prayed them for. Your sister, safe ... and mine again, as she was meant to be. I ask you, Ned, what good is it to wear a crown? The gods mock the prayers of kings and cowherds alike.

Doesn't seems like someone plotting to be king...

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10 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Certifiable batshit nutjob crazy.  

Ok, pretty extreme. Lets see if someone can beat that?

3 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

In a scale of 1 to 10 probably around 11...

Noice!

17 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I wasn’t aware Dany is mad. 

Walks into fire, hears voices. What would you call it?

18 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

But I don’t recall Lysa as being particularly cruel,

When Robert misbehaved she beat the whipping boy. When her staff complained about getting molested by Marillion she ignored them and gave her singer more power. She attempted to murder her innocent child niece

21 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

nor that she got sexually aroused by watching people in pain. 

 

13 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

 and got horny about it...

Err, conjecture.

23 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

 Well, we don’t really know much about Patchface, do we? 

We know he cant complete a full sentence unless its under the sea

24 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Why?

And Rhaegar … how  many times do you think he raped your sister? How many hundreds of times?"

Theres a conspiracy here

27 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

But he very obviously wasn’t mad, 

His voice had grown so loud that his horse whinnied nervously beneath him. The  king jerked the reins hard, quieting the animal, and pointed an angry finger at Ned. "I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on, until they are as dead as their dragons, and then I will piss on their graves."

Obviously?

20 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me. A crown ... it was the girl I prayed them for. Your sister, safe ... and mine again, as she was meant to be. I ask you, Ned, what good is it to wear a crown? The gods mock the prayers of kings and cowherds alike.

Doesn't seems like someone plotting to be king...

Doesn't seem like Lyanna was meant to be Roberts

29 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

, whereas Aerys very, very clearly was. 

Because Robert and Tywin said so?

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5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

And Rhaegar … how  many times do you think he raped your sister? How many hundreds of times?"

Theres a conspiracy here

???

 

5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

His voice had grown so loud that his horse whinnied nervously beneath him. The  king jerked the reins hard, quieting the animal, and pointed an angry finger at Ned. "I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on, until they are as dead as their dragons, and then I will piss on their graves."

Obviously?

Seriously ????

 

 

6 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 Doesn't seem like Lyanna was meant to be Roberts

????

 

6 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Because Robert and Tywin said so?

Because from Dorne to the Wall it's said so.

 

 

Btw are you comparing someone who is literally insane with someone driven by revenge?? This has become a fallacy show, def.

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9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ok, pretty extreme. Lets see if someone can beat that?

Extreme and a realistic assessment, if I say so myself. 

9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Walks into fire, hears voices. What would you call it?

In a universe w/ dragons, giants, skinchanging, magic? Gifted. What she’ll do w/ it remains to be seen, to be sure, but I wouldn’t call Dany mad. Not yet anyway. 

9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

When Robert misbehaved she beat the whipping boy. When her staff complained about getting molested by Marillion she ignored them and gave her singer more power. She attempted to murder her innocent child niece

I didn’t mean to imply that Lysa was a nice person. She wasn’t, by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, she was a total arsehole IMO. That said, whipping boys were a thing, both in universe and the rw. And yes, she was a nasty lady, who only saw her own interests and didn’t give a damn about her smallfolk. The way she treated Sansa, her own niece, culminating in attempting to kill her, is absolutely inexcusable, that goes w/o saying. Like I said, a total arsehole and more than a little unstable; that’s why I previously said there were “some similarities”. 

9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Err, conjecture.

Nope, fact. 

AFfC, Jaime II

“The sight had filled him with disquiet, reminding him of Aerys Targaryen and the way a burning would arouse him. A king has no secrets from his Kingsguard. Relations between Aerys and his queen had been strained during the last years of his reign. They slept apart and did their best to avoid each other during the waking hours. But whenever Aerys gave a man to the flames, Queen Rhaella would have a visitor in the night. The day he burned his mace-and-dagger Hand, Jaime and Jon Darry had stood at guard outside her bedchamber whilst the king took his pleasure. “You’re hurting me,” they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. “You’re hurting me.” In some queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted’s screaming. “We are sworn to protect her as well,” Jaime had finally been driven to say. “We are,” Darry allowed, “but not from him.”
Jaime had only seen Rhaella once after that, the morning of the day she left for Dragonstone. The queen had been cloaked and hooded as she climbed inside the royal wheelhouse that would take her down Aegon’s High Hill to the waiting ship, but he heard her maids whispering after she was gone. They said the queen looked as if some beast had savaged her, clawing at her thighs and chewing on her breasts. A crowned beast, Jaime knew.”

 

9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

We know he cant complete a full sentence unless its under the sea

We don’t know why Patchface does what he does or says what he says. He could be mad as a hatter, sure. Or not. Point is, we don’t know, the way we do know Aerys was mad. 

9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

And Rhaegar … how  many times do you think he raped your sister? How many hundreds of times?"

Theres a conspiracy here

That’s not a conspiracy, that’s an erroneous assumption/belief Robert has, either b/c he reached that conclusion (b/c he couldn’t face any alternative, like, Lyanna went willingly) or b/c someone told him something that isn’t true. 

9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

His voice had grown so loud that his horse whinnied nervously beneath him. The  king jerked the reins hard, quieting the animal, and pointed an angry finger at Ned. "I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on, until they are as dead as their dragons, and then I will piss on their graves."

Obviously?

Yes, obviously not mad. 

9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Doesn't seem like Lyanna was meant to be Roberts

And? 

9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Because Robert and Tywin said so?

Robert, Tywin, Jaime, Ned, Barristan, Quentyn, Cersei, Brienne, Cat, and so many others. But above all else, because Martin, who loves to leave things vague and foggy, makes it a point to have several characters saying the exact same thing. Seems this is one thing he didn’t really care to leave room for doubt. 

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1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

It's not the point I was making.

Sorry. (It fit the flow) 

Robert wanted to be king. 

Quote

"Have you ever seen the Iron Throne? The barbs along the back, the ribbons of twisted steel, the jagged ends of swords and knives all tangled up and melted? It is not a comfortable seat, ser. Aerys cut himself so often men took to calling him King Scab, and Maegor the Cruel was murdered in that chair. By that chair, to hear some tell it. It is not a seat where a man can rest at ease. Ofttimes I wonder why my brothers wanted it so desperately."

However its nice to play humble to your kingmaker when gazing over his sisters tomb.

I too think Aerys had some screw loose, however I take issue with you exceeding your scale. Stannis burns people too, Joffrey promised to rape a noblewoman indefinitely on her wedding night. The scale for insanity is high. Predominantly with Westeros kings. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Because from Dorne to the Wall it's said so.

People say all sorts of things. Grumkins are in the shadows, knights exist to defend the weak, Jon is Neds and Rhegars a rapist. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Btw are you comparing someone who is literally insane with someone driven by revenge?? This has become a fallacy show, def.

Revenge can be nice. "My names Mercy, can you say it?" Roberts downright scary, Lady Dustin status

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yes, obviously not mad. 

He has weird outbursts, Id say he's unhinged

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

We don’t know why Patchface does what he does or says what he says. He could be mad as a hatter, sure. Or not. Point is, we don’t know, the way we do know Aerys was mad. 

Patchy too. We do know, we actively see him outta this world.

We do not see Aerys

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Robert, Tywin, Jaime, Ned, Barristan, Quentyn, Cersei, Brienne, Cat, and so many others. But above all else, because Martin, who loves to leave things vague and foggy, makes it a point to have several characters saying the exact same thing. Seems this is one thing he didn’t really care to leave room for doubt. 

 Neither has the Frog, the Beaut, Cat or Cersei.

Does Ned call Aerys mad? I dont recall that, Jaime either.

Selmy is an interesting issue. Hes an old man whos been warring for years, CTE is a thing. Memory loss too, which Selmy actually does on numerous occasions

Quote

"Daenerys is not dead. She was riding that dragon. I saw it with mine own two eyes." He had said the same a hundred times before … but every day that passed made it harder to believe. Her hair was afire. I saw that too. She was burning … and if I did not see her fall, hundreds swear they did.

 

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Nope, fact. 

AFfC, Jaime II

Sorry, shoulda been more specific. Was it the fire or the murder? Cersei and Dany get horny for fire too, no murder involved.

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Like I said, a total arsehole and more than a little unstable; that’s why I previously said there were “some similarities”. 

Right, a total ass and a little unstable. Thats how I see Aerys. Varys helped, like Petyr helped Lysa. 

Whereas characters like Viserys or Euron are more unstable then not.

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

 In a universe w/ dragons, giants, skinchanging, magic? Gifted. 

If Jaime didnt break his vow and Aerys birthed a dragon would you consider him mad or gifted?

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

and didn’t give a damn about her smallfolk.

Only Dany and Edmure actually care about their smallfolk

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43 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

People say all sorts of things. Grumkins are in the shadows, knights exist to defend the weak, Jon is Neds and Rhegars a rapist. 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

But we do have evidence of the first, we have first hand accounts to tell us that, are you not agreeing with the text again??

Ned himself claims Jon is his. 

Btw, how do you know Rhaegar is not a rapist??;)

 

 

43 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

He has weird outbursts, Id say he's unhinged

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

So anger is the same as madness, there is nothing mad about that, Robert hates the Targs, just as there is nothing mad in the Targs hating him in turn and dreaming with killing him.

 

 

43 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Revenge can be nice. "My names Mercy, can you say it?" Roberts downright scary, Lady Dustin status

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Nor Barbs is crazy. I don't understandt he correlaion between revenge and madness here.

 

 

43 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Neither has the Frog, the Beaut, Cat or Cersei.

Does Ned call Aerys mad? I dont recall that, Jaime either.

Selmy is an interesting issue. Hes an old man whos been warring for years, CTE is a thing. Memory loss too, which Selmy actually does on numerous occasions

 

There were three tombs, side by side. Lord Rickard Stark, Ned's father, had a long, stern face. The stonemason had known him well. He sat with quiet dignity, stone fingers holding tight to the sword across his lap, but in life all swords had failed him. In two smaller sepulchres on either side were his children. Brandon had been twenty when he died, strangled by order of the Mad King Aerys Targaryen only a few short days before he was to wed Catelyn Tully of Riverrun. His father had been forced to watch him die. He was the true heir, the eldest, born to rule.
Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride
.  AGOT Eddard I
 
 
The war had raged for close to a year. Lords great and small had flocked to Robert's banners; others had remained loyal to Targaryen. The mighty Lannisters of Casterly Rock, the Wardens of the West, had remained aloof from the struggle, ignoring calls to arms from both rebels and royalists. Aerys Targaryen must have thought that his gods had answered his prayers when Lord Tywin Lannister appeared before the gates of King's Landing with an army twelve thousand strong, professing loyalty. So the mad king had ordered his last mad act. He had opened his city to the lions at the gate.
"Treachery was a coin the Targaryens knew well," Robert said. The anger was building in him again. "Lannister paid them back in kind. It was no less than they deserved. I shall not trouble my sleep over it." 
AGOT Eddard II
 
 
 
Ned did not need Littlefinger to tell him that. He was thinking back to the day Arya had been found, to the look on the queen's face when she said, We have a wolf, so soft and quiet. He was thinking of the boy Mycah, of Jon Arryn's sudden death, of Bran's fall, of old mad Aerys Targaryen dying on the floor of his throne room while his life's blood dried on a gilded blade. "My lady," he said, turning to Catelyn, "there is nothing more you can do here. I want you to return to Winterfell at once. If there was one assassin, there could be others. Whoever ordered Bran's death will learn soon enough that the boy still lives. AGOT Eddard IV
 
 
We do not have however, quotes of Jaime calling him mad, we just have, Aerys direct actions in Jaime's memories and yes,  cooco.
 
So Selmy is misremembreing years of his life, years that clearly marked him?? Isn't it nice??
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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