Were Ned, Robert and Jon Arryn the villains of the rebellion?

[kissdbyfire]

@Hugorfonics, I stand corrected.

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Some_Continuity_Oddities

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

@Hugorfonics, I stand corrected.

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Some_Continuity_Oddities

Np. Thanks for digging up that SSM

[frenin]

4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Np. Thanks for digging up that SSM

Don't really know the point of this, but there is a difference between  normal events and events that mark you for life,  that is why Ned has already forgotten the faces of his best pals, those who died for his sister's idiocy  him at the ToJ but the faces of Dayne and the rest of the gang are as clear as day for him.

[Tyrion1991]

OP

I am not sure what part of the text makes you think this. George is very clearly not writing anything grey or nuanced here. A Mad King along gets overthrown by just men and Tywin does all the dirty work. We have the valiant young warrior heroes against inbred monsters. This isn’t quite HeMan versus Skeletor but it’s pretty close.

On another level it’s all a tragic misunderstanding so ridiculous it makes Dale and Tucker versus Evil look grounded.

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

On 12/17/2019 at 6:47 AM, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t think there’s evidence that Rhaegar wanted Aerys to die at Duskendale. Although it seems perfectly believable that the thought must have crossed Tywin’s mind. From the little we know, it looks like Rhaegar wanted to get the nobility behind him to find an acceptable and non-violent way of removing his father from power while keeping him safe. Too bad he didn’t act sooner, as I said. Also, being mad and paranoid and having people conspiring against you (because you’re mad and unfit to rule) are not mutually exclusive. 

100% agree with this. But having people take advantage of that paranoia and madness to their own ends . . .

I'm away from my books right now, but following Harrenhal and Rhaegar giving Lyanna the crown, I think it was Symond Staunton who considered this an attempt from Rhaegar to try and gain Winterfell's support to his cause, which considering everything is a rather stupid conclusion. I think the important thing is that Symond Staunton also happened to be the master of law under Aerys's regime. 

With Brandon riding heedless to King's Landing to challenge Rhaegar, I don't believe it would have taken much of a nudge to convince Aerys to execute these political rivals, and that's if he didn't land on that conclusion all by his crazy self. There's just something in this that reminds me of Ned's own execution. Aerys had opportunities to pull back. He didn't.

I personally don't believe there's a single thing to the so-called southron ambitions. We have no idea if Rickard was the one who approached Hoster Tully about Catelyn, or if it was the other way around. But considering the marriage alliances Tully is trying to build (and no one ever calls him a traitor) with the negotiations for his brother's betrothal to Bethany Redwyne, Catelyn's betrothal to Brandon, Lysa's would-be betrothal to Jaime and her subsequent marriage to Jon Arryn and later his attempt at snagging Arianne Martell for Edmure, well I'm more inclined to believe that the proposal might have come from him, rather than Lord Rickard.

And we know that Robert is the one who proposed the marriage to Lyanna, not Rickard. 

That said, I do think that there may have been an interest in getting the north out of isolation. But I think it had diddly squat to do with ambition and everything to do with snarks and grumkins.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

100% agree with this. But having people take advantage of that paranoia and madness to their own ends . . .

Absolutely. But it’s a vicious circle, innit. Aerys favoured the lickspittles, the men who would always agree w/ him, and in turn, these men would tell him what he wanted to hear and always try to poison Aerys against those who could possibly oppose them.

The above reads a bit convoluted, I hope it makes sense...

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I'm away from my books right now, but following Harrenhal and Rhaegar giving Lyanna the crown, I think it was Symond Staunton who considered this an attempt from Rhaegar to try and gain Winterfell's support to his cause, which considering everything is a rather stupid conclusion. I think the important thing is that Symond Staunton also happened to be the master of law under Aerys's regime. 

Yup. 

TWoIaF, The Year of the False Spring

“Chief amongst the Mad King’s supporters were three lords of his small council: Qarlton Chelsted, master of coin, Lucerys Velaryon, master of ships, and Symond Staunton, master of laws. The eunuch Varys, master of whisperers, and Wisdom Rossart, grand master of the Guild of Alchemists, also enjoyed the king’s trust. Prince Rhaegar’s support came from the younger men at court, including Lord Jon Connington, Ser Myles Mooton of Maidenpool, and Ser Richard Lonmouth. The Dornishmen who had come to court with the Princess Elia were in the prince’s confidence as well, particularly Prince Lewyn Martell, Elia’s uncle and a Sworn Brother of the Kingsguard. But the most formidable of all Rhaegar’s friends and allies in King’s Landing was surely Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning.”

<snip>

“A similarly bloody conflict might await the Seven Kingdoms once again, he warned, unless some accord could be reached that would satisfy both Prince Rhaegar’s supporters and the king’s.
Had any whiff of proof come into their hands to show that Prince Rhaegar was conspiring against his father, King Aerys’s loyalists would most certainly have used it to bring about the prince’s downfall. Indeed, certain of the king’s men had even gone so far as to suggest that Aerys should disinherit his “disloyal” son, and name his younger brother heir to the Iron Throne in his stead. Prince Viserys was but seven years of age, and his eventual ascension would certainly mean a regency, wherein they themselves would rule as regents.
In such a climate, it was scarce surprising that Lord Whent’s great tournament excited much suspicion. Lord Chelsted urged His Grace to forbid it, and Lord Staunton went even further, suggesting a prohibition against all tourneys”

<snip>

“The cheers of the crowd were said to be deafening, but King Aerys did not join them. Far from being proud and pleased by his heir’s skill at arms, His Grace saw it as a threat. Lords Chelsted and Staunton inflamed his suspicions further, declaring that Prince Rhaegar had entered the lists to curry favor with the commons and remind the assembled lords that he was a puissant warrior, a true heir to Aegon the Conqueror.
And when the triumphant Prince of Dragonstone named Lyanna Stark, daughter of the Lord of Winterfell, the queen of love and beauty, placing a garland of blue roses in her lap with the tip of his lance, the lickspittle lords gathered around the king declared that further proof of his perfidy. Why would the prince have thus given insult to his own wife, the Princess Elia Martell of Dorne (who was present), unless it was to help him gain the Iron Throne? The crowning of the Stark girl, who was by all reports a wild and boyish young thing with none of the Princess Elia’s delicate beauty, could only have been meant to win the allegiance of Winterfell to Prince Rhaegar’s cause, Symond Staunton suggested to the king.
Yet if this were true, why did Lady Lyanna’s brothers seem so distraught at the honor the prince had bestowed upon her? Brandon Stark, the heir to Winterfell, had to be restrained from confronting Rhaegar at what he took as a slight upon his sister’s honor, for Lyanna Stark had long been betrothed to Robert Baratheon, Lord of Storm’s End.”

IRT the bold yes,I agree wholeheartedly, it was a very stupid conclusion. 

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With Brandon riding heedless to King's Landing to challenge Rhaegar, I don't believe it would have taken much of a nudge to convince Aerys to execute these political rivals, and that's if he didn't land on that conclusion all by his crazy self. There's just something in this that reminds me of Ned's own execution. Aerys had opportunities to pull back. He didn't.

Agreed. And

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I personally don't believe there's a single thing to the so-called southron ambitions. We have no idea if Rickard was the one who approached Hoster Tully about Catelyn, or if it was the other way around. But considering the marriage alliances Tully is trying to build (and no one ever calls him a traitor) with the negotiations for his brother's betrothal to Bethany Redwyne, Catelyn's betrothal to Brandon, Lysa's would-be betrothal to Jaime and her subsequent marriage to Jon Arryn and later his attempt at snagging Arianne Martell for Edmure, well I'm more inclined to believe that the proposal might have come from him, rather than Lord Rickard.

And we know that Robert is the one who proposed the marriage to Lyanna, not Rickard. 

Agree 100%.

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That said, I do think that there may have been an interest in getting the north out of isolation. But I think it had diddly squat to do with ambition and everything to do with snarks and grumkins.

I’m not sure what you mean here about snarks and grumkins? I do think Rhaegar would have wanted to have as many lords/high lords on board if he indeed had some sort of plan, be it a great council or something else; a way to remove Daddy Dearest from power before things got worse. But I’m not sure what you mean about the rest... do you think Rhaegar had concerns/knowledge about the threat from beyond the Wall? 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I’m not sure what you mean here about snarks and grumkins? I do think Rhaegar would have wanted to have as many lords/high lords on board if he indeed had some sort of plan, be it a great council or something else; a way to remove Daddy Dearest from power before things got worse. But I’m not sure what you mean about the rest... do you think Rhaegar had concerns/knowledge about the threat from beyond the Wall? 

I was just being tongue in cheek with the snarks and grumkins. I was talking about the Others. I think Rickard Stark with his bastard Hightower maester had concerns. It's obviously based off nothing in the text (yet), but I've often wondered if they weren't working at building these alliances in order to ensure that the north wouldn't be standing alone when the time came.   

I think Rhaegar had concerns as well. He corresponded with Maester Aemon about the PtwP, he thought Aegon was it, he said his is the song of ice and fire. So to me, it sounds like he at least had some awareness of some sort of a looming threat. 

[Hugorfonics]

7 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

And we know that Robert is the one who proposed the marriage to Lyanna, not Rickard. 

We do?

7 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

and everything to do with snarks and grumkins.

Hear hear!

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think Rhaegar had concerns as well. He corresponded with Maester Aemon about the PtwP, he thought Aegon was it, he said his is the song of ice and fire. So to me, it sounds like he at least had some awareness of some sort of a looming threat. 

The old bear seemed pretty clueless about other stuff, plus im not sure how relatable the PtwP is to the fight against the Others. 

When Aemon learns of Dany the Prince, he wishes to abandon his post to teach her the proper etiquette of Westeros, not to haul her to the frontlines of hell

Azor Ahai seems to be the one in the corner eyeing the wights, but that didnt seem to impress Aemon either who came up with ways why Lightbringers a fugazie.

Its peculiar that these prophetic heroes to come are studied while its enemy is confined to profanity

[Alexis-something-Rose]

9 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

We do?

It's from the app.

This is the bit from Robert's bio;

"Thanks to his friendship with Eddard, he develops a fondness for Lyanna Stark, and in time he proposes a betrothal. Lord Rickard Stark agrees to this even as Lyanna recognizes that Robert will never keep to one bed despite Eddard's assurances that Robert loves her." (AWoIaF app)

This is the bit from Ned's bio;

"Of his siblings, Eddard loves his sister Lyanna best, and when Robert conceives a passion for her and asks for her hand in marriage, he is delighted. Eddard carries the proposal to his father, Lord Rickard, who agrees to the betrothal. Eddard assured Lyanna that Robert is a good man though she questions Eddard about the bastard daughter Robert has recently fathered in the Vale." (AWoIaF app)

9 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

The old bear seemed pretty clueless about other stuff, 

I'm not sure what other stuff you're referring to, but if you're talking about the Others, I don't believe he was as clueless as that. I think some things are just more difficult to believe than others. 

"You are a young man, Tyrion," Mormont said. "How many winters have you seen?"
He shrugged. "Eight, nine. I misremember."
"And all of them short."
"As you say, my lord." He had been born in the dead of winter, a terrible cruel one that the maesters said had lasted near three years, but Tyrion's earliest memories were of spring."
"When I was a boy, it was said that a long summer always meant a long winter to come. This summer has lasted nine years, Tyrion, and a tenth will soon be upon us. Think on that."
"When I was a boy," Tyrion replied, "my wet nurse told me that one day, if men were good, the gods would give the world a summer without ending. Perhaps we've been better than we thought, and the Great Summer is finally at hand." He grinned.
The Lord Commander did not seem amused. "You are not fool enough to believe that, my lord. Already the days grow shorter. There can be no mistake, Aemon has had letters from the Citadel, findings in accord with his own. The end of summer stares us in the face." Mormont reached out and clutched Tyrion tightly by the hand. "You must make them understand. I tell you, my lord, the darkness is coming. There are wild things in the woods, direwolves and mammoths and snow bears the size of aurochs, and I have seen darker shapes in my dreams."
"In your dreams," Tyrion echoed, thinking how badly he needed another strong drink.
Mormont was deaf to the edge in his voice. "The fisherfolk near Eastwatch have glimpsed white walkers on the shore."
This time Tyrion could not hold his tongue. "The fisherfolk of Lannisport often glimpse merlings."
"Denys Mallister writes that the mountain people are moving south, slipping past the Shadow Tower in numbers greater than ever before. They are running, my lord . . . but running from what?" Lord Mormont moved to the window and stared out into the night. "These are old bones, Lannister, but they have never felt a chill like this. Tell the king what I say, I pray you. Winter is coming, and when the Long Night falls, only the Night's Watch will stand between the realm and the darkness that sweeps from the north. The gods help us all if we are not ready." (Tyrion III, AGoT 21)

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plus im not sure how relatable the PtwP is to the fight against the Others. 

I agree. We're sort of conditioned to see look at PtwP/AA as the person who is supposed to lead the fight against the darkness and the Others. That's what we're told, so that's what we believe. At least that's what I believe. 

I think it's rather unfortunate that we were not privy to Maester Aemon's thoughts and that we have no idea what he's told Sam yet in his final moments.

In any case, and back on topic quickly, I don't think Ned & Co are the bad guys in the rebellion. It makes no sense that they wouldn't defend themselves from a man who wanted them dead because of what their names were. 

But because I tend to take the long view on this one, some 17 years later, Aerys's actions, followed by the rebellion mean that the realm is not prepared for the winter that's coming, not prepared for the Long Night, nowhere near ready for what's coming. There's just been another devastating war and more coming. When winter finally sets in and we did see a white raven announcing winter in the prologue of ADwD, everyone will be royally fucked. Would Rhaegar have laughed a man of the Night's Watch out of the room the way the people present at court the day Alliser Thorne was did? 

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

It's from the app.

This is the bit from Robert's bio;

"Thanks to his friendship with Eddard, he develops a fondness for Lyanna Stark, and in time he proposes a betrothal. Lord Rickard Stark agrees to this even as Lyanna recognizes that Robert will never keep to one bed despite Eddard's assurances that Robert loves her." (AWoIaF app)

This is the bit from Ned's bio;

"Of his siblings, Eddard loves his sister Lyanna best, and when Robert conceives a passion for her and asks for her hand in marriage, he is delighted. Eddard carries the proposal to his father, Lord Rickard, who agrees to the betrothal. Eddard assured Lyanna that Robert is a good man though she questions Eddard about the bastard daughter Robert has recently fathered in the Vale." (AWoIaF app)

Very interesting. And the app is directly from GRRM the person? Not a maester in proxy? Or Ran or somebody?

If anything it kinda seems like Ned was the one orchestrating the whole marriage. Very interesting. 

2 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I'm not sure what other stuff you're referring to, but if you're talking about the Others, I don't believe he was as clueless as that. I think some things are just more difficult to believe than others. 

"You are a young man, Tyrion," Mormont said. "How many winters have you seen?"
He shrugged. "Eight, nine. I misremember."
"And all of them short."
"As you say, my lord." He had been born in the dead of winter, a terrible cruel one that the maesters said had lasted near three years, but Tyrion's earliest memories were of spring."
"When I was a boy, it was said that a long summer always meant a long winter to come. This summer has lasted nine years, Tyrion, and a tenth will soon be upon us. Think on that."
"When I was a boy," Tyrion replied, "my wet nurse told me that one day, if men were good, the gods would give the world a summer without ending. Perhaps we've been better than we thought, and the Great Summer is finally at hand." He grinned.
The Lord Commander did not seem amused. "You are not fool enough to believe that, my lord. Already the days grow shorter. There can be no mistake, Aemon has had letters from the Citadel, findings in accord with his own. The end of summer stares us in the face." Mormont reached out and clutched Tyrion tightly by the hand. "You must make them understand. I tell you, my lord, the darkness is coming. There are wild things in the woods, direwolves and mammoths and snow bears the size of aurochs, and I have seen darker shapes in my dreams."
"In your dreams," Tyrion echoed, thinking how badly he needed another strong drink.
Mormont was deaf to the edge in his voice. "The fisherfolk near Eastwatch have glimpsed white walkers on the shore."
This time Tyrion could not hold his tongue. "The fisherfolk of Lannisport often glimpse merlings."
"Denys Mallister writes that the mountain people are moving south, slipping past the Shadow Tower in numbers greater than ever before. They are running, my lord . . . but running from what?" Lord Mormont moved to the window and stared out into the night. "These are old bones, Lannister, but they have never felt a chill like this. Tell the king what I say, I pray you. Winter is coming, and when the Long Night falls, only the Night's Watch will stand between the realm and the darkness that sweeps from the north. The gods help us all if we are not ready." (Tyrion III, AGoT 21)

I agree. We're sort of conditioned to see look at PtwP/AA as the person who is supposed to lead the fight against the darkness and the Others. That's what we're told, so that's what we believe. At least that's what I believe. 

Not as clueless as most, no doubt. But more clueless then hed prefer to be.

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"We never knew . . . "

"We never knew! But we must have known once. The Night's Watch has forgotten its true purpose, Tarly. You don't build a wall seven hundred feet high to keep savages in skins from stealing women. The Wall was made to guard the realms of men . . . and not against other men, which is all the wildlings are when you come right down to it. Too many years, Tarly, too many hundreds and thousands of years. We lost sight of the true enemy. And now he's here, but we don't know how to fight him. Is dragonglass made by dragons, as the smallfolk like to say?"

"The m-maesters think not," Sam stammered. "The maesters say it comes from the fires of the earth. They call it obsidian."

Mormont snorted. "They can call it lemon pie for all I care. If it kills as you claim, I want more of it"

And I take no issue with Mormonts malice to maesters. What good has Aemon been? If Aemon and Rhegar were uncovering the mystery of the Prince, or Aemon and Brynden, then why was the Old Bear as clueless as he was, or even his predecessors? 

It doesnt really seem to me that the Prince is meant to fight the Others, otherwise Id think KL would have been improving the Wall since Bloodraven was Hand (or thereabouts)

(In all likelihood the Prince is the same as almost all Targaryen prophecies. To which Danys already accomplished in the last chapter of agot)

Ahai, maybe. Meli is all like, I called it. But did she? She says she didnt travel to put a vain man on a meaningless chair, so there is a sense of doom there totally. But other doom?

Like what of her bosses? All of them are gung ho on Dany whos back home eating horse with the Dothraki. Does Volantis see Others, doubtful.

2 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

In any case, and back on topic quickly, I don't think Ned & Co are the bad guys in the rebellion. It makes no sense that they wouldn't defend themselves from a man who wanted them dead because of what their names were. 

I don't think there's really a good or bad, idk, id say I lean more towards the loyalists. 

War is bad, I get that, but what Hoster did to his constituents, thats bad. Still visible today. And then iirc Jon does the same thing in the Vale. This older generation, the Tywin Lannisters, theyre not great people. 

Kings wanting things and not getting them happens all the time though, like Joffrey asked half the realm to swear him fealty and no one showed up. 

Not showing up I think would have been the most sensible move, by yourself or by your army. Robert and Co struck first, its hard to automatically see the good guy in them.

3 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

But because I tend to take the long view on this one, some 17 years later, Aerys's actions, followed by the rebellion mean that the realm is not prepared for the winter that's coming, not prepared for the Long Night, nowhere near ready for what's coming. There's just been another devastating war and more coming. When winter finally sets in and we did see a white raven announcing winter in the prologue of ADwD, everyone will be royally fucked. Would Rhaegar have laughed a man of the Night's Watch out of the room the way the people present at court the day Alliser Thorne was did? 

If anything Aemons letter to the five kings would probably accomplish more

3 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Would Rhaegar have laughed a man of the Night's Watch out of the room the way the people present at court the day Alliser Thorne was did? 

Nah. Only the Imp would do that. And then hes all like "send my regards to Jon Snow", acting like a real Lannister lol

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Very interesting. And the app is directly from GRRM the person? Not a maester in proxy? Or Ran or somebody?

@Ran answered this before when I asked and I'm sorry to say that I don't remember what he said, so I take it as semi-canon until it shows up in the books. Even if Rickard Stark went with Maester Walys's idea of the Tully marriage, no one can blame him for accepting Robert's proposal. Lyanna was either going to marry him or one of the northern lords and Robert is a far better marriage.

So this whole idea that southron ambition was behind anything to do with the marriage alliances doesn't fit, imo.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

I don't think there's really a good or bad, idk, id say I lean more towards the loyalists. 

I'm not on this side or the other. I just don't expect someone whose life is threatened to sit meekly by. You either flee or you fight back. I always wondered if Aerys would have stopped at Ned and Robert's heads or demanded Benjen's and Stannis's and Renly's heads to finally be satisfied.

I still think that Aerys's small council had a lot to do with Brandon and Rickard's deaths as well as demanding Ned and Robert's heads. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

 War is bad, I get that, but what Hoster did to his constituents, thats bad. Still visible today. And then iirc Jon does the same thing in the Vale. This older generation, the Tywin Lannisters, theyre not great people. 

No, they weren't great, were they. Hoster Tully putting the Goodbrook village to the torch when he took up the cause of the rebels for a couple of marriages doesn't say all that much about him as a person, although I do think part of it was about countering Walder Frey and the 23 different Houses the Freys married into. And Tywin ordering the murder of children is vile. But Aegon and Rhaenys weren't the first children whose blood he has on his hands. The Tarbeck boy was thrown down a well by Amory Lorch. If ever a person deserved to be eaten by a goddamn bear.

But all these men have paid one way or another. They had prolonged and agonizing deaths (Hoster Tully, Jon Arryn and Robert), or a humiliating one (Tywin).

Ned's death was swift and "clean" compared to that. 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

 Kings wanting things and not getting them happens all the time though, like Joffrey asked half the realm to swear him fealty and no one showed up. 

And then Renly crowned himself and Robb was named KitN and Balon Greyjoy followed up, although no one really seemed to care what they did on the Iron Islands and his name wasn't even mentioned in that long ass list of people who were summoned to King's Landing to swear fealty.

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

 Not showing up I think would have been the most sensible move, by yourself or by your army. Robert and Co struck first, its hard to automatically see the good guy in them.

Nothing is black or white in the story and I don't believe we're supposed to see the rebels automatically as good guys. They are rebels after all, but they are given extenuating circumstances. Robert is a total fuckboy, but what did he do to Aerys that he should demand his head? This is his cousin's son, a man he grew up with, a man he was allegedly planning on naming his Hand after he returned from Essos. 

Aerys struck first when he executed Lord Rickard and Brandon and the Mallister boy and the Royce boy and Elbert Arryn and some 200 northmen. 

You summon the fathers to ransom their dumbass sons only to turn around and kill everyone. Shouldn't these men have had safe conduct in King's Landing? 

It's interesting, though, that Jon Arryn doesn't seem to have gone out of his way to try and ransom his nephew and heir back and seemingly did nothing after said nephew was killed. 

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

@Ran answered this before when I asked and I'm sorry to say that I don't remember what he said, so I take it as semi-canon until it shows up in the books.

Then I shall as well

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

. Even if Rickard Stark went with Maester Walys's idea of the Tully marriage, no one can blame him for accepting Robert's proposal. Lyanna was either going to marry him or one of the northern lords and Robert is a far better marriage.

So this whole idea that southron ambition was behind anything to do with the marriage alliances doesn't fit, imo.

So if we fully buy into the southron ambition, we must remember its not just Rickards ambition but the citidals as well. If the grey rats wished for Ned to tell his dad about the match, well the best friend and loving brother would be a good patsy. Like Petyr says, if you know a man and what he wants you know how to move him. 

Is Robert a better match? Why? Hes richer sure, but hes so powerful that his suitors family is now stuck in their web of politics. Vice versa, sure, and this strong bond may have suited them in times of chaos and uncertainty but not after 300 years of stability. Adding Tully and Arryn is overkill. 

Idk how ambitious Rickard was but there was a firm alliance being created with half of the most powerful lords in the kingdoms, never a good sign for an absolute ruler like Targaryen. 

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I'm not on this side or the other.

Yea me neither. I generally like all asoiaf characters, but... not these lol. Then again when the war of 5 happened i wanted to be on Robbs side, and balons side and stannis' side, and Tyrions side. And when the war of 3 ill be on danys side and sansas side... and cerseis side lol

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

. I just don't expect someone whose life is threatened to sit meekly by.

It can work, Lysa remained unscathed, hell, rewarded for falsely accusing Tyrion. If the Eryie is impregnable then whats MC?

Perhaps thats not the correct military maneuver maybe the right one was burn your village or whatever, but I agree, Ned and Robert were seemingly backed into a corner.

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I still think that Aerys's small council had a lot to do with Brandon and Rickard's deaths as well as demanding Ned and Robert's heads. 

The spider spins the web

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I always wondered if Aerys would have stopped at Ned and Robert's heads or demanded Benjen's and Stannis's and Renly's heads to finally be satisfied.

I doubt it. The whole murdering whole families is almost strictly a Tywin move. Then again that was his Hand once, if he came back, yea sure, maybe.

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

No, they weren't great, were they. Hoster Tully putting the Goodbrook village to the torch when he took up the cause of the rebels for a couple of marriages doesn't say all that much about him as a person, although I do think part of it was about countering Walder Frey and the 23 different Houses the Freys married into.

Wait, like, Walder had Freyon ambition and Hoster felt like he had to neutralize it? This sounds like something similar...

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

. And Tywin ordering the murder of children is vile. But Aegon and Rhaenys weren't the first children whose blood he has on his hands. The Tarbeck boy was thrown down a well by Amory Lorch. If ever a person deserved to be eaten by a goddamn bear.

Mmm, gruesome. But yea I aint shedding tears. I didnt know that about him. Fucking Tywin. "Didn't know what he was". What a terrible person lol

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

But all these men have paid one way or another. They had prolonged and agonizing deaths (Hoster Tully, Jon Arryn and Robert), or a humiliating one (Tywin).

May they rot in hell

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Ned's death was swift and "clean" compared to that. 

Him too. I liked his death. Like Jorah the slaver now wearing the tattoos of a troublesome slave. Reap what you sow.

Though, sad Ned has grown on me. I used to be mad at his stupidity and shortsightedness, in both RR and agot. But, I realize his hearts in the right place. Maybe he shouldn't be sent to the seven layers of hell.

Send him to like the 4th. Lol

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

And then Renly crowned himself and Robb was named KitN and Balon Greyjoy followed up, although no one really seemed to care what they did on the Iron Islands and his name wasn't even mentioned in that long ass list of people who were summoned to King's Landing to swear fealty.

Lol poor Balon. But Martell and Tyrell were on the list too. They didnt show up and got rewarded

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Nothing is black or white in the story and I don't believe we're supposed to see the rebels automatically as good guys. They are rebels after all, but they are given extenuating circumstances.

Woah. The fact theyre rebels I kinda like. You know the resistance, fuck the first order. 

The Targaryen way of governing is not cool in my book

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

. Robert is a total fuckboy, but what did he do to Aerys that he should demand his head? This is his cousin's son, a man he grew up with, a man he was allegedly planning on naming his Hand after he returned from Essos. 

Its a weird story that Im almost sure we're missing part of

2 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Aerys struck first when he executed Lord Rickard and Brandon and the Mallister boy and the Royce boy and Elbert Arryn and some 200 northmen. 

Yea thats a good point.

200 northmen?

2 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

You summon the fathers to ransom their dumbass sons only to turn around and kill everyone. Shouldn't these men have had safe conduct in King's Landing? 

Well, there was a trial... Rickard should have chosen water. 

I mean a king is a king, right? Can he do wrong? Can Joff be held accountable for the attempt on Bran? Or on Dontos? 

I agree Aerys crossed the line, but he did so with precedence so for Robert to fully gain the tyrants throne without tweaking it, idk, that doesn't sit well with me either. Not to mention the instability he brought along with the whole usurper/dragonspawn problem

But yea, you're making good points and im leaning a bit towards the rebels now

2 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

It's interesting, though, that Jon Arryn doesn't seem to have gone out of his way to try and ransom his nephew and heir back and seemingly did nothing after said nephew was killed. 

I do think the story is incomplete, but yea. Politics first, family second. 

[frenin]

27 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

It can work, Lysa remained unscathed, hell, rewarded for falsely accusing Tyrion. If the Eryie is impregnable then whats MC?

Perhaps thats not the correct military maneuver maybe the right one was burn your village or whatever, but I agree, Ned and Robert were seemingly backed into a corner.

Lysa's life wasn't threatened. In fact whenever  Lysa's feel I'm danger she either hides  or bites.

[redriver]

"But yea....."

I'm glad that particular piece of dialogue wasn't included in the novels..

[Hugorfonics]

Its how I talk

But yea, maybe I shouldn't say it as much

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Its how I talk

But yea, maybe I shouldn't say it as much

You're fine. You say it as much as you want. Redriver likes to pick at people. 

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

You're fine. You say it as much as you want. 

Lol thanks

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 Redriver likes to pick at people. 

Word. I dont take nothing personal

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

15 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lol thanks

Word. I dont take nothing personal

Good

[Alexis-something-Rose]

On 12/27/2019 at 5:02 PM, Hugorfonics said:

So if we fully buy into the southron ambition, we must remember its not just Rickards ambition but the citidals as well. If the grey rats wished for Ned to tell his dad about the match, well the best friend and loving brother would be a good patsy. Like Petyr says, if you know a man and what he wants you know how to move him. 

I know what's been said about the maesters, but I'm not super convinced of that, personally. And I'm not sure I understand your point about Ned. And Maester Walys was a Hightower bastard, a family that's dabbled in necromancy and alchemy and whose lord is reading magic books ahead of the ironborn attack. Walys is the wrong maester to send to Winterfell if we go with the idea that the maesters are looking to build a world without magic. Even Maester Luwin who was a great skeptic about magic became something of a believer in the end. 

But something actually occurred to me about the idea that Rickard was allying to protect the north from the Others rather than for personal ambition. He might actually have known Bloodraven personally, before he vanished beyond the Wall and became a wizard tree man. Rickard knew Denys Mallister and Qhorin Halfhand, so it's not outside the realm of possibilities that Bloodraven traveled to Winterfell when he was Lord Commander, (and that he may have known Maester Aemon as well). 

On 12/27/2019 at 5:02 PM, Hugorfonics said:

 Is Robert a better match? Why? Hes richer sure, but hes so powerful that his suitors family is now stuck in their web of politics. Vice versa, sure, and this strong bond may have suited them in times of chaos and uncertainty but not after 300 years of stability. Adding Tully and Arryn is overkill. 

I think he's a much better match for the daughter of the Warden of the North than say a Bolton or a Umber or a Hornwood. Plus Robert is kin to the Targaryens. His grandmother was a Targaryen princess and Storm's End is really not that far from King's Landing. If Robert has to call his banners one day to assist the north, then Aerys or Rhaegar (if he were king) might be compelled to do the same. The argument about "southron ambition" is that Rickard Stark was allying with Tully, Arryn and Baratheon to check or to overthrow the Targaryens. My argument is that he was looking for allies the north could count on for food and arms and men when the Long Night happened. He even knew Olenna Tyrell.

On 12/27/2019 at 5:02 PM, Hugorfonics said:

 Idk how ambitious Rickard was but there was a firm alliance being created with half of the most powerful lords in the kingdoms, never a good sign for an absolute ruler like Targaryen. 

 Yet so far, there's nothing in the text that indicates the Targaryens were particularly bothered by it. 

[Hugorfonics]

9 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

. And I'm not sure I understand your point about Ned.

Im reminded of the sage words by master Littlefinger

Quote

"And I was a piece?" She dreaded the answer.

"Yes, but don't let that trouble you. You're still half a child. Every man's a piece to start with, and every maid as well. Even some who think they are players." He ate another seed. "Cersei, for one. She thinks herself sly, but in truth she is utterly predictable. Her strength rests on her beauty, birth, and riches. Only the first of those is truly her own, and it will soon desert her. I pity her then. She wants power, but has no notion what to do with it when she gets it. Everyone wants something, Alayne. And when you know what a man wants you know who he is, and how to move him."

If Eddard was truly the one to convince his father then I dont think itd be inconceivable for someone to have covertly directed him.

9 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I know what's been said about the maesters, but I'm not super convinced of that, personally. And I'm not sure I understand your point about Ned. And Maester Walys was a Hightower bastard, a family that's dabbled in necromancy and alchemy and whose lord is reading magic books ahead of the ironborn attack. Walys is the wrong maester to send to Winterfell if we go with the idea that the maesters are looking to build a world without magic. Even Maester Luwin who was a great skeptic about magic became something of a believer in the end. 

So, theres two conspiracies about maesters, they may both be accurate or false. But its also possible that ones a thing and the other not. 

The Mage, in all his glamor and paranoia, accuses the citadel of murder and anti magic stuff; While Lady Dustin, in all her melancholy and paranoia, accuses the citadel of spying and conspiring.

I personally believe both. However Dustins paranoia seems to be more concrete because its backed up by alarming facts like theyre everywhere, and they read and write all letters. 

While the Mages paranoia rests in "who do you think killed all the dragons", which goes against the text that we've encountered so far, and continue to encounter in twoaif and f&b.

So, yea, I don't think its fair to discount a theory based off another theory, while contemplating Hightower magic; Which in itself is a (fan) theory thats honestly held together by scarce texts.

9 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

But something actually occurred to me about the idea that Rickard was allying to protect the north from the Others rather than for personal ambition. He might actually have known Bloodraven personally, before he vanished beyond the Wall and became a wizard tree man. Rickard knew Denys Mallister and Qhorin Halfhand, so it's not outside the realm of possibilities that Bloodraven traveled to Winterfell when he was Lord Commander, (and that he may have known Maester Aemon as well). 

None of this is outside the realm of possibility, in fact we can be almost sure that BR was in cahoots with Lord Stark, because the NW and Winterfell are cool like that. 

However there is nothing to base their knowledge of other stuff on. Ned was as ignorant to why a man would desert as Cat of the Canals, if Rickard knew then why didnt Ned? If Aemon knew then why didnt the Old Bear? 

I just don't see it. Reinforcements should arrive quick with the threat of zombies, no need to make firm alliances in the face of armageddon. They all serve the iron throne

9 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

 Storm's End is really not that far from King's Landing. If Robert has to call his banners one day to assist the north, then Aerys or Rhaegar (if he were king) might be compelled to do the same.

That sounds like a threat lol, which in itself I think was the problem.  Not just to KL, but like, lets say theres a dispute between Stark and Lannister, it automatically becomes a dispute between Stark, Tully, Bartheon (Arryn) and Lannister. 

Shits like WWI

9 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

 Yet so far, there's nothing in the text that indicates the Targaryens were particularly bothered by it. 

Nothing specific. Jaime reflects often on Varys poisoning his kings paranoid ear with plots. Id be surprised if Varys nor Aerys ever discussed Rickards ambition, especially when one considers his death