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Were Ned, Robert and Jon Arryn the villains of the rebellion?

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11 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Heya, I dunna know why Brandon's squire was spared and road with Eddard to Rheagar's tower of joy.

I dunna know why the assumption is Rickard is a traitor. As far as I know Rickard was summoned and Rickard went to KL.

The CoK quote describes what happened.

Let's see -- R and L go missing-- Stark get word -- Stark rides to KL -- calls out the prince -- and then---

Rickard wasn't at the infamous tourney. His pups were.

Quote

Aerys accused them of treason and summoned their fathers to court to answer the charge, with the sons as hostages.

It gives the idea he acused the sons and fathers of treason. The thing is that either aerys and his court are bat shit crazy or there are things happening we don t know...

And while I agree that aerys had some problems this level of crazyness is just too much out of nowhere… And it doesn t explain certain things like why the squire surviving.

And that jaime quote doesn t contradict the OP because it gives very few details...

Edited by divica

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5 hours ago, wia said:

I personally like that one a lot. But that's not the one that is popular on this forum and that's not what I though OP meant. So that's why I didn't mention it.

Lol, I get that. It's just one of the many ideas I've presented over the years that makes most people on this forum think I'm nuts. :ack:

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4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Here it doesn’t even matter whether they were guilty of conspiring to depose Aerys. Because, see, Aerys should have given them a proper trial, and if they were found guilty, he could have executed them. What he did was a travesty, fuellled by his egomania and paranoia, and ultimately, that’s what ended up costing the Targs everything. 

Whatever happened (or didn’t happen, for those still in denial) between Rhaegar and Lyanna didn’t cause RR, but rather Aerys did when he murdered all those northerners and then asked Arryn to send him Robert and Eddard’s heads. 

When has a person in asoiaf had a fair trial? Look at tyrion's trials or ned's death…

And what kind of trial did brandon deserve? He comes to KL shouting he was going to kill rhaegar… Does this person desserve a trial? for what? And judging people for conspiracy to depose the targs is a special scenario...

If aerys found out about a conspiracy to kill his entire familly I can t blame him for killing the people involved… 

And the entire propose of the OP is to sugest that even if aerys was cruel and paranoid he had motives for killing those northmen and demand ned's and robert's heads. And that it was the rebels that took advantage of the situation to spin their tale of madness and justice of their cause.

3 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

"Yes they deserved to die and I hope they burn in hell!"  Couldn't resist.

So far as the text tells us, only Rhaegar for sure was planning on "making changes".  We can assume that Tywin would have been fine with a regime change.  But there is not enough textual evidence to support a conspiracy for Jon Arryn, Bobby B and Neddard prior to the onset of the war.  There is, however, oodles of flat out canonical evidence to support that Aerys was an unfit, unjust, cruel ruler and managed to alienate more than half of his Great Houses. 

I agree. However aerys only alienated those great houses at the start of the rebelion and the tale we know so far relies on the people of aerys council being batshit crazy and doesn t really explain certain details like the squire surviving or aerys demanding ned's and robert's heads. 

 

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16 minutes ago, divica said:

It gives the idea he acused the sons and fathers of treason.

Well as happens we have moved on to a different page. AND I ain't gonna go back to to Jaime's and Cat's interaction.

18 minutes ago, divica said:

The thing is that either aerys and his court are bat shit crazy or there are things happening we don t know...

No, bat shit crazy needs not apply.

Aerys had on his council Pycelle (lannister loyalist) and Varys.

Both Pycelle & Varys could feed aerys' paranoia.

AND yes there are verra well may be things the readers are not privy to.

24 minutes ago, divica said:

And it doesn t explain certain things like why the squire surviving. 

All I can do is throw my hands in the air because I have no idea why Brandon's squire survived and rode with Eddard to Rheager's tower of joy.

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20 minutes ago, divica said:

And while I agree that aerys had some problems this level of crazyness is just too much out of nowhere… 

I think maybe you don’t remember certain things very well? You make some claims as if they’re fact when in truth the text clearly contradicts you. 

Aerys descent into madness was by no means something that came “out of nowhere”. 

TWoIaF, Aerys II 

AERYS TARGARYEN, the Second of His Name, was but eighteen years of age when he ascended the Iron Throne in 262 AC, upon the death of his father, Jaehaerys, after little more than three years of rule. A handsome youth, Aerys had fought gallantly in the Stepstones during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Though not the most diligent of princes, nor the most intelligent, he had an undeniable charm that won him many friends. He was also vain, proud, and changeable, traits that made him easy prey for flatterers and lickspittles, but these flaws were not immediately apparent to most at the time of his ascension.

<snip>

And rule he did. As the king’s own behavior grew increasingly erratic, more and more the day-to-day running of the realm fell to his Hand. The realm prospered under Tywin Lannister’s stewardship—so much so that King Aerys’s endless caprices did not seem so portentous. Many Targaryens before him had exhibited similar behavior without great cause for concern. From Oldtown to the Wall, men began to say that Aerys might wear the crown, but it was Tywin Lannister who ruled the realm.

I could keep at it, pulling quote after quote but I see no need for more. 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, divica said:

The thing is that either aerys and his court are bat shit crazy or there are things happening we don t know...

Aerys was crazy.  His court is made up of lickspittles and fools.  Jaime, IMO, was only one there that had the guts to stand up to him.  And it took Aerys trying to burn down the whole city for Jaime to grow a pair.  It's clear that Aerys wasn't always like this and his paranoia grew over the years.  That doesn't mean there was a conspiracy.  Look at the insane stuff that Cersei does and she still has "followers". 

Typically someone who is guilty of an action or has a particular trait tends to project that on to others.  In Aerys' case he was always coming up with schemes and then accused others of doing the same. 

23 minutes ago, divica said:

like why the squire surviving.

I agree that's odd and I don't have an answer for it  But I don't think that and Bars comment are enough to rely on.  But again, you're looking for logic from an illogical person.  It's possibly, even likely that Aerys didn't have a good reason.  Perhaps by the time he got to the squire he had sated his blood lust and wasn't interested.  Or perhaps he thought something was going on up North and hoped freeing him might keep some of the Northmen loyal. 

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3 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Well done. *clap*

I came here and I wasn't dissapointed. Let me throw some random book quote in here, I want to have more fun.

Ned knew he was pushing this well past the point of wisdom, yet he could not keep silent. "Robert, I ask you, what did we rise against Aerys Targaryen for, if not to put an end to the murder of children?"

 

Their intentions might have been good, but you know, Robert's Rebellion killed a lot of children.  Robb Stark caused the deaths of many children during his campaign in the riverlands.  The war of the five kings killed more people than Aerys ever did.  So Robert and the Starks really messed up.  They had good intentions but made things a whole lot worse.  

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18 hours ago, divica said:

So if instead of assuming that aerys and his advisers were supercrazy and murdered 2 starks (1 of them without reason) and then ordered jon arryn to kill 2 men he considered as sons without good reason and expected him to obey what if we try to justify his actions.

Lets take a leap and assume the north and the vale were indeed conspiring to put robert on the throne. So Brandon as the heir would know about the plot and might even talked about it with his closest friends (some of them went with him to KL obviously). So after being imprisioned and threatened with death some of brandon's companions might have tried to bargain their freedom by telling the king about the northern plot. Giving that everybody else ended up dead it would make sense if it was brandon's squire that talked and ended up surviving because of that...

LOL :rofl:

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It's obvious from the books how badly things became when Robert Baratheon took over from the Targaryens.  Big boy and his friends. might have had good intentions but they made things worse.  Much worse.  

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28 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

LOL :rofl:

I love short and sweet. :)

 

27 minutes ago, Victor Newman said:

It's obvious from the books how badly things became when Robert Baratheon took over from the Targaryens.  Big boy and his friends. might have had good intentions but they made things worse.  Much worse.  

Am I experiencing déjà vu or did you just say the exact same thing two posts up thread? 

Edited by kissdbyfire

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2 hours ago, wia said:

Uh... Let's recap?

It was believed that Rhaegar tried to depose him.

The World of Ice and Fire:

Seeing how there's no reason for Robert regime to create and circulate such rumours after their victory, it's safe to assume that those rumours were circulated at the indicated times. Now whether those rumours were true or not is another matter. 

But seeing how Rhaegar personally confirms to Jaime that he did indeed had planned to call a Great Council long ago...

Well, it's pretty clear to me.

Maa culpa. I had forgotten those parts of the world book. The Tywin quote doesn't support Rhaegar trying to depose him. And once again. a great council is a significant variance from deposing a reigning dictator.

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They’re not the villains, especially Ned, who just wanted to rescue his sister. Not even close compared to: 

Joffrey, who shoots people who are begging for food and throws people off trebuchets after nailing antlers to their heads;

Cersei, who sends people to be tortured by Qyburn and had her husband’s children massacred;

Vargo Hoat, who likes to chop off limbs for fun and tried to force a 15-year-old to marry him;

Craster, who rapes his daughters and sacrifices his sons to the White Walkers;

Rorge, who sacked the town of Saltpans and rapes children; 

Gregor Clegane, who murdered his father, sister, scarred his brother for life, raped, bisected and crushed Elia Martell’s head;

Ramsay Snow, who forced Donella Hornwood to marry him, then locked her up for days forcing her to eat her own fingers, flays the Ironborn at Moat Cailin after promising safe passage, regularly rapes his (theoretically) 11-year-old wife and has his dogs to the same.

And Aerys II himself, who burned people alive whenever he felt like it and had several noblemen and their fathers executed after allowing them entry in good faith to pay ransom, then ordered the executions of Ned and Robert without good reason. Plus, he ordered the deaths of 500,000 people to top it all off.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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35 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Aerys was crazy. 

By Westerosi standards, not really.

35 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

 His court is made up of lickspittles and fools.  Jaime, IMO, was only one there that had the guts to stand up to him.  And it took Aerys trying to burn down the whole city for Jaime to grow a pair.  It's clear that Aerys wasn't always like this and his paranoia grew over the years. 

Aerys was cruel, borderline evil, sure. That doesnt make Robert and friends the good guys.

44 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

That doesn't mean there was a conspiracy.  Look at the insane stuff that Cersei does and she still has "followers". 

 But there was a conspiracy.  Rhegar planned "long ago" to eclipse his father.

And the northen conspiracy isnt without merit. Rickard was forming strong ties with Baratheon and Tully. Also ties with Arryn who in turn was forming ties with Baratheon and eyes on Tully. 

Great lords dont build strong alliances for pretty grandchildren, something was up.

So, is Cersei crazy? Like Aerys crazy? Lets refer to Angel Eyes list right above. Are they really like these people? Theyre are more to, like Euron and the Weaper, or actual crazy people like Viserys and Patchface.

And there is also a conspiracy against Cersei, its not Tyrion in the walls but its Tyrell, Keaven, the Faith, and Varys in the walls.

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3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

By Westerosi standards, not really.

No, really. Really. By any standards. Refer to the quotes above/in previous pages. 

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Aerys was cruel, borderline evil, sure. That doesnt make Robert and friends the good guys.

What does “borderline evil” even mean? From the stuff he’s done that we know of I’d say he crossed that “border line”, crossing into full blown evil sadistic madman long before his death. 

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 But there was a conspiracy.  Rhegar planned "long ago" to eclipse his father.

There are clues pointing towards Rhaegar wanting to do something, but we don’t know what that something was. Given what we learn about the TaH in the WB, it is likely that Rhaegar wanted to convene a great council to discuss the very troubling fact that the king has gone off the deep end and must be kept from further fucking things up. 

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

And the northen conspiracy isnt without merit. Rickard was forming strong ties with Baratheon and Tully. Also ties with Arryn who in turn was forming ties with Baratheon and eyes on Tully. 

Great lords dont build strong alliances for pretty grandchildren, something was up.

Refer to @sweetsunray‘s posts on this. 

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

So, is Cersei crazy? Like Aerys crazy? Lets refer to Angel Eyes list right above. Are they really like these people? Theyre are more to, like Euron and the Weaper, or actual crazy people like Viserys and Patchface.

No Cersei is not the same brand of crazy as Aerys, but is just as dangerous. Haven’t seen the list you mention yet, so...

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

And there is also a conspiracy against Cersei, its not Tyrion in the walls but its Tyrell, Keaven, the Faith, and Varys in the walls.

Cersei doesn’t need a conspiracy against her, she is quite efficient in being her own downfall w/o anyone’s help. 

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17 minutes ago, wia said:

 

A guy who bent his knee to avoid a war with dragons protesting a lot about a marriage arrangement does not sound unforced to me.
And, seeing how it was the only Andal marriage for Starks that we know of, they seemingly weren't up for a repeat performance.

Make note of the fact that the letters were written by the brothers, not the father. The North was divived over Torrhen's choice to bend the knee, since some Northerners chose exile in Essos over remaining in the North and formed a sellsword company

From f&b

Spoiler

The Targaryens also brokered many marriages between noble houses from the far ends of of the realm, in hopes such alliances would help tie the conquered lands together and make the seven kingdoms one. Aegon's queens, Visenya and Rhaenys, took a special delight in arranging these matches. Through their efforts, youth Ronnel Arryn, Lord of the Eyrie, took a daughter of Torrhen Stark of Winterfel to wed, whilst Loren Lannister's eldest son, heir to Casterly Rock, married a Redwyne girl from the Arbor. (F&B, Three head had the dragon, p 40)

Now the match indeed was not repeated for a long while, since the Lord Arryn in question ended up being murdered by his usurping brother and a war ensued between potential Arryn heirs. And it's not just about Andal versus First Men, but a kingdom they had centuries of feud with.

More of it in Jaehaerys's and Alysanne's reign

Spoiler

Marriages had long been the means by which the great houses of Westeros bound themselves together, a reliable method of forging alliances and ending disputes. Just as the Conquerer's wives had before her, Alysanne Targaryen delighted in making such matches. (Jaehaerys and Alysanne, p 240)

When Alysanne visits Alaric Stark, Lord of WF, we have this...

Spoiler

When Her Grace suggested that she would be pleased to help arrange marriages for his sons to the daughters of great southern lords, Lord Stark refused brusquely. "We keep the old gods in the North," he told the queen. "When my boys take a wife, they will wed before a heart tree, not in some southron sept."

Alysanne did not yield easily, however. The lords of the south honored the old gods as well as the new, she told Lord Alaric; most every castle that she knew had a godswood as well as a sept. And there were still certain houses that had never accepted the Seven, no  more than the northmen had, the Blackwoods in the riverlands chief amongst them, and mayhaps as many as a dozen more. Even a lord as stern and flinty as Alaric Stark found himself helpless before Queen Alysanne's stubborn charm. He allowed that he would think on what she said, and raise the matter with his sons.

The longer the queen stayed, the more Lord Alaric warmed to her, and in time Alysanne came to realize that not everything that was said of him was true. He was careful with coin, but not niggardly; he was not humorless at all, though his humor had an edge to it, sharp as a knife; his sons and daughter and the people of Winterfell seemed to love him well enough. Once the initial frost had thawed, his lordship took the queen hunting after elk and wild boar in the wolfswood, showed her the bones of a giant, and allowed her to rummage as she pleased through his modest castle library. He even deigned to approach Silverwing, though warily. The women of Winterfell were taken by the queen's charms as well, once they grew to know her; Her Grace became particularly close with Lord Alaric's daughter, Alarra. (p262-263)

[Long after Alysanne and the late Jaehaerys left the North and hold a tourney in KL to celebrate Jaeherys's ascension, Alaric's sons and Alarra come down from the north for it, and Alarra became Alysanne's lady in waiting. Now Alaric and Jaehaerys did not get along well, and Alaric blamed Jaehaerys for the death of his older brother, prior Lord Stark, beyond the wall. Along with this continued frost between the late-arrived Jaehaerys and Alaric over this and the fact that Alaric sends his children long after Alysanne and Jaehaerys left as well as Alaric approaching Silverwing, which he had ordered Alysanne to keep outside of his castle walls reveals that his children were not hostages to the pair.]

Note: Lord Alaric is NOT the much later Ellard Stark (whose brother tried to argue against the New Gift.) Even if I agree with the prediction that the NW is ill equipped to protect lands from raids and those lands would decline, the idea and talks about the New Gift were not done with Lord Ellard Stark, but  much much earlier with Alaric Stark. What is clear to me now is that the World book that was edited as a gift to Tommen Baratheon subtle means to portray the Starks as a malcontent, rebelious House, using protesting voices of brothers or sons who are not actually Lords of WF. This type of portrayal is absent in F&B. The World Book was written with a political agenda to appease the Lannisters, when it is believed that House Stark is annihilated. It is much less so in F&B, often citing several sources.

A marriage is also arranged between a Tully and Stark IIRC after the Dance. But I haven't physically retrieved that quote yet.

Overall this is an important advice in F&B in relation to the discussion, mentioned during Jaehearys's reign, a king that George himself considers his favourite king... "Septon Barth said it best"...

Spoiler

"The lords of the realm are proud men all, and little is gained by shaming them. A wise king will always let them keep their dignity. Show them a dragon, aye. They will remember. Speak openly of burning down their halls, boast of how you fed their own kin to your dragons, and you will inflame them and set their hearts against you." (p 234)

 

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4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

By Westerosi standards, not really.

How do you figure?  Westeros is literally the ones telling us he was nuts...by their standards.

5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Aerys was cruel, borderline evil, sure. That doesnt make Robert and friends the good guys.

And?  I never said they were.  I said they were not villains.  Not villains doesn't equal good guys.  In fact, I'm certain that's what George has been teaching us for the past few decades. 

8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

But there was a conspiracy

Context.  Rhaegar planned to "call a council".  In response to his bat-shit crazy father.  Not bc he was in cahoots with Jon, Robert or Ned.  In fact, he was off to fight them first.

15 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

And the northen conspiracy isnt without merit.

It's possible but the "evidence" is flimsy and, IMO unlikely.

15 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

So, is Cersei crazy? Like Aerys crazy?

Not yet.  It didn't start that way but she's heading that direction.  Don't you recall her burning the Tower of the Hand?  Even Jaime compares it to Aerys.

25 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

And there is also a conspiracy against Cersei, its not Tyrion in the walls but its Tyrell, Keaven, the Faith, and Varys in the walls.

I think you're just arguing to argue.  Obviously I know the Trell's wanted to set Joff aside bc he was cruel.  Kevan wants Cersei to leave KL bc she's not the Queen and is doing more harm than good.  The Faith manipulated her to get the Warrior Sons back.  But the point is that she is still surrounded by lickspittles and fools.  Just like Aerys.  They're attracted to the crown, the power, not the person.

 

 

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51 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

By Westerosi standards, not really.

Other than a few Targaryen kings, I cannot really think of many people who enjoyed torturing people the way he did, and his behavior toward his family and vassals is beyond erratic. The only people who come close Aerys' acts in the current series are Ramsay (rape games, flaying), the Mountain, and Cersei (Extreme paranoria, unwarranted arrests, orders/allows extreme torturing). The mountain even being included is debatable because the man is constantly hopped up on MOTP and suffers from migraine headaches. 

51 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Aerys was cruel, borderline evil, sure. That doesnt make Robert and friends the good guys.

No but trying to keep an insane paranoid king from murdering you is hardly a jaunt down the road to bad guy. Ned (and the living Starks) are clearly mean to be the protagonists / good guys in the series and we know from Ned's POV that he had no knowledge of any kind of council or deposal.

51 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 But there was a conspiracy.  Rhegar planned "long ago" to eclipse his father.

He planned long ago to deal with his father. Could be the same, but we do not know. Frankly if he had wanted to get rid of his father, he'd have advised Tywin at DD to not let Barristan save him.

51 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

And the northen conspiracy isnt without merit. Rickard was forming strong ties with Baratheon and Tully. Also ties with Arryn who in turn was forming ties with Baratheon and eyes on Tully. 

Great lords dont build strong alliances for pretty grandchildren, something was up.

Right but we have no idea if it was an alliance to depose Aerys and raise Rhaegar, or if it was a defensive alliance.

51 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

So, is Cersei crazy? Like Aerys crazy? Lets refer to Angel Eyes list right above. Are they really like these people? Theyre are more to, like Euron and the Weaper, or actual crazy people like Viserys and Patchface.

And there is also a conspiracy against Cersei, its not Tyrion in the walls but its Tyrell, Keaven, the Faith, and Varys in the walls.

Cersei is well on her way to being Aerys crazy. And it's not a conspiracy. It's a check on improper governance when you're talking about Kevan and the Tyrells. The Tyrells are always gunning for more power but they have legitimate grievances with how Cersei is ruling.

The Faith and Varys - yeah those are conspiracies. We know Varys' end game but the HS' is still open

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26 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

No, really. Really. By any standards. Refer to the quotes above/in previous pages. 

What does “borderline evil” even mean? From the stuff he’s done that we know of I’d say he crossed that “border line”, crossing into full blown evil sadistic madman long before his death. 

Lol im not sure. Evil is a strong word so i tried to soften it, but he was a rapist murderer so evil works. Then again Tyrion also raped and murdered so is he evil to? You see, it gets tricky. Although when you are willing to sacrifice a million plus sized city it gets less tricker

26 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Refer to @sweetsunray‘s posts on this. 

These were pre dance, possibly one post. And in between two houses with the crowns administration not three or four.

29 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

There are clues pointing towards Rhaegar wanting to do something, but we don’t know what that something was. Given what we learn about the TaH in the WB, it is likely that Rhaegar wanted to convene a great council to discuss the very troubling fact that the king has gone off the deep end and must be kept from further fucking things up. 

 Theres Jaimes recollection of Rhaegar saying he wants to remove his pops. Great Council or not. 

32 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

No Cersei is not the same brand of crazy as Aerys, but is just as dangerous. Haven’t seen the list you mention yet, so...

Cersei doesn’t need a conspiracy against her, she is quite efficient in being her own downfall w/o anyone’s help. 

The list was right above my post, Craster and Joff and Rorge and them. Basically what i mean is the night is dark and full of terrors. Aerys was no Maegor or Joff nor a Euron or Ramsay or the Wise Masters out in Essosi. Nor Cersei

26 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

How do you figure?  Westeros is literally the ones telling us he was nuts...by their standards.

By Roberts standards. The same one whos on a flimsy throne cursing Rhaegar the rapist. 

28 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

And?  I never said they were.  I said they were not villains.  Not villains doesn't equal good guys.  In fact, I'm certain that's what George has been teaching us for the past few decades. 

For sure. What i meant was Aerys or at least house Targaryen wasnt the villain either. Robert and them attacked first and climbed over dead children to claim the same tyrant throne that he deposed. The tale Brienne knows of Robert riding to save the realm is just a story riddled with propaganda

32 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Context.  Rhaegar planned to "call a council".  In response to his bat-shit crazy father.  Not bc he was in cahoots with Jon, Robert or Ned.  In fact, he was off to fight them first.

Right, but thats not a reason to mark Aerys paranoia as insane

36 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Not yet.  It didn't start that way but she's heading that direction.  Don't you recall her burning the Tower of the Hand?  Even Jaime compares it to Aerys.

I think you're just arguing to argue.  Obviously I know the Trell's wanted to set Joff aside bc he was cruel.  Kevan wants Cersei to leave KL bc she's not the Queen and is doing more harm than good.  The Faith manipulated her to get the Warrior Sons back.  But the point is that she is still surrounded by lickspittles and fools.  Just like Aerys.  They're attracted to the crown, the power, not the person.

She likes fire, so does Dany. Cersei has coherent thoughts and justified paranoia, she may be more evil then Aerys but her POVs read off mentally sound which makes me think Aerys was as well

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Well, the point behind that list I made is that there are quite a few characters who are definitively evil, miles worse than Robert, Ned and Jon. Robert, Ned and Jon had legitimate greviences with King Aerys. Robert and Ned were personally threatened by Aerys, Ned’s father and brother were tortured to death in a mockery of trial by combat, and Aerys is technically threatening his own kin in Robert. Jon Arryn wasn’t going to give up his foster sons to a man like that, because of what he had done. Would any of them have done the same things as Joffrey, or Ramsay, or the Mountain?

Edited by Angel Eyes

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39 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Other than a few Targaryen kings, I cannot really think of many people who enjoyed torturing people the way he did, and his behavior toward his family and vassals is beyond erratic. The only people who come close Aerys' acts in the current series are Ramsay (rape games, flaying), the Mountain, and Cersei (Extreme paranoria, unwarranted arrests, orders/allows extreme torturing). The mountain even being included is debatable because the man is constantly hopped up on MOTP and suffers from migraine headaches. 

The stories of Aerys enjoying the tortures are probably just that all we know is he witnessed the lord burn alive just like Stannis did. 

Aerys probably doesnt even make top 20 bad guys in asoiaf. I mean burning KL is as bad as you could get but he never did that, and im pretty sure others would as well. (Euron Viserys Joff like half of Essos )

Why is Gregor exempt, Because of his condition? If anything Aerys whos mental health is in question should be the one exempt. 

39 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

 No but trying to keep an insane paranoid king from murdering you is hardly a jaunt down the road to bad guy. Ned (and the living Starks) are clearly mean to be the protagonists / good guys in the series and we know from Ned's POV that he had no knowledge of any kind of council or deposal.

we know neds the good guy from chapter 1, or whatever it is, but in chapter 2 we read that Danys fams were. 

39 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

 

Right but we have no idea if it was an alliance to depose Aerys and raise Rhaegar, or if it was a defensive alliance.

Oh come on, it was to seperate itself from KL we have no way of knowing but that seems the most plausible

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