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Were Ned, Robert and Jon Arryn the villains of the rebellion?

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On 12/14/2018 at 6:57 PM, Damsel in Distress said:

Who the villain is depends on what Robert and Rickard were up to.  They are the villains if they were truly plotting against the Targaryens.  On the other hand, if they were loyal to Aerys and they just got on his bad side and got roasted then you could say they were innocent victims.  I'm on the camp that believe they were plotting to overthrow Aerys.  

 

Same here.  :agree:

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Before the rebellion no, after it was all said and done than yes Ned, Jon, and Robert can be said to be the villains of the rebellion. Ned is my favorite ASOIAF character and one of my all time favs. But I side eye him and everyone who put Robert Baratheon on that ugly chair when that wasn’t the main objective during the rebellion. 

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On December 14, 2018 at 12:42 PM, Arthur Peres said:

Rhaegar is the one to blame for the rebellion, he wronged 3 houses in one stroke. Aerys made things worst, but it was Rhaegar that started it all.

Eddard Jon and Robert were defending themselfs. Do not need make things more complicated than they are.

To be clear you see Rheagar as the main Villian during the civil war?

 

On December 16, 2018 at 8:19 PM, Arthur Peres said:

 

Robert never wanted to be king, he was wronged twice by Rhaegar, he only rebelled when Aeryrs asked for his head out of nowhere.

Rickard had his matches south, he was finally integrating the North into the seven kingdoms, Rhaegar crushed and burned it, Aerys finished the job when he made a mockery of a trial and executed Brandon and Rickard.

The wrong side in the rebellion is pretty clear and was the Targs.

Robert is a whiner who would like to blame others for his own decisions as if he literally had no free agency to do anything. He never had to be King. He could have easily seeded the position to Stannis. Truth be told, despite his bitching and moaning, the man relishehed the perks of being king and would never give it up. He merely hates the actual part him doing stuff remotely related in government. Robert isn't unique in bemoaning he was "forced" to grab power. It's' a common staple for one to pretend they must grab power for some greater good. This is why I loved Renly. He didn't pretend he was rebelling for some greater good or noble cause-it was for his own self-interest. God how refreshing. 

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6 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

To be clear you see Rheagar as the main Villian during the civil war?

 

Not a villain but the most responsable for it. He is the one that in one stroke decided to piss of 3 of the great lords.

 

6 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Robert is a whiner who would like to blame others for his own decisions as if he literally had no free agency to do anything. He never had to be King. He merely hates the actual part him doing stuff remotely related in government. Robert isn't unique in bemoaning he was "forced" to grab power.

I agree.

6 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He never had to be King. He could have easily seeded the position to Stannis.

In the early years you might be right, by the time Robert is regreting and moaning in self pity if he leaves the throne the one who grabs the throne is Joffrey.

Stannis is also a self serving prick that pretend to not want to be king but that is his birth right, he also could let Renly get the throne, but he refused it. Not much would change.

 

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1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

Not a villain but the most responsable for it. He is the one that in one stroke decided to piss of 3 of the great lords

This is true unless those three houses are already on the road of betrayal.  That is, they were already planning to ousts the Targaryens.

I refer you to the following GM interview.  At the 27.50 mark, he starts to say something that I find is strong evidence that those families were planning to remove the Targaryens from power.  

My belief that the Starks and the Baratheons were disloyal to the Targaryens from the beginning is why I strongly dislike those families.  Like what others have said and been written before my posts here.  What Rickard was doing is not how a loyal lord would act.  His marriage plans is nothing innocent.  He wanted to challenge Aerys.  Trying to make himself more militarily powerful than his king is disloyalty.  I believe the clues strongly point to their guilt.  Those bungholes.  Brandon deserved to get strangled.  Rickard, that was a bad way to die.  But if he was disloyal to the Targaryens and he was planning to overthrow them, it was deserved.  It was just desserts.  

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1 hour ago, Enuma Elish said:

This is true unless those three houses are already on the road of betrayal.  That is, they were already planning to ousts the Targaryens.

I refer you to the following GM interview.  At the 27.50 mark, he starts to say something that I find is strong evidence that those families were planning to remove the Targaryens from power.  

My belief that the Starks and the Baratheons were disloyal to the Targaryens from the beginning is why I strongly dislike those families.  Like what others have said and been written before my posts here.  What Rickard was doing is not how a loyal lord would act.  His marriage plans is nothing innocent.  He wanted to challenge Aerys.  Trying to make himself more militarily powerful than his king is disloyalty.  I believe the clues strongly point to their guilt.  Those bungholes.  Brandon deserved to get strangled.  Rickard, that was a bad way to die.  But if he was disloyal to the Targaryens and he was planning to overthrow them, it was deserved.  It was just desserts.  

That particular clip basically says "Robert and the other lords finally realized the Targs are humans like them, not some omnipotent Gods who control dragons." There' absolutely nothing in there to hint that any of those lords were trying to remove the Targs from power. The most generous interpretation from that viewpoint is that those lords realized they didn't have to bow and scrape to an absolute monarchy.

Rickard wasn't doing anything that House Stark hadn't done before (or been promised before). Tywin was trying to do the exact same thing with Jaime when he was still Hand and probably before Lyanna was even betrothed to Robert.

If Rickard had wanted to challenge Aerys, you'd think he'd have gone to KL with more than 200 guardsmen (if they even came with him) or not have gone at all and raised his banners in defiance, even with Brandon in his custody.

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2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Not a villain but the most responsable for it. He is the one that in one stroke decided to piss of 3 of the great lords.

I'd swap Rhaegar with Aerys, as the execution of Rickard and Brandon didn't set off the rebellion. It was the call to execute Ned and Robert that pushed Jon to rebel.

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Stannis is also a self serving prick that pretend to not want to be king but that is his birth right, he also could let Renly get the throne, but he refused it. Not much would change.

Robert was really the only viable choice if you wanted to please the former loyalists with Targ blood and reward the leaders of the rebellion. Stannis spent the entire war in SE. No doubt that's important, but not quite as important as Robert's participation in every major battle fought in RR. More importantly Stannis hates the Tyrells and the Redwynes, and the war wasn't over until Mace dipped his banners. They still fear what he would do to them as king in 299 AC, so if Ned had been naming Stannis king at SE, I don't think it would have gone well.

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14 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I'd swap Rhaegar with Aerys, as the execution of Rickard and Brandon didn't set off the rebellion. It was the call to execute Ned and Robert that pushed Jon to rebel.

The rebelion only started after Aerys asked for Ned and Robert heads, so I can see your point about him being more acountable than Rhaegar. But a madman is in no condition to make judmental calls. As far as we know Rhaegar was mentally health, his actions are the ones that started the chains of events, and after all the shit show that he started he disapeared for close to a year.

For those reason I blame Rhaegar more than Aerys.

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On 12/12/2018 at 5:35 PM, Victor Newman said:

It's obvious from the books how badly things became when Robert Baratheon took over from the Targaryens.  Big boy and his friends. might have had good intentions but they made things worse.  Much worse.  

The realm under Robert was said to be peaceful enough that a girl could walk down the King's Road naked without being bothered. That's hyperbolic, but it's an exaggeration of a genuine sense of peace. Things go downhill when Robert dies and a civil war erupts.

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How anyone can think those siding against Aerys "can only be aroused by the smell of burning flesh" Targaryen could be villains is beyond me. Maybe the wait for the next book has sent the fanbase into a sort of psychosis. 

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10 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

In the early years you might be right, by the time Robert is regreting and moaning in self pity if he leaves the throne the one who grabs the throne is Joffrey.

Stannis is also a self serving prick that pretend to not want to be king but that is his birth right, he also could let Renly get the throne, but he refused it. Not m

And, I still see this as him just blaming others for his decisions. In this instance Joffery(to which most fans won’t mind because Joffery). If he truly cared about what would happen after he died, he would have tried to be more active in trying to change the boy, or theighn to make Tommen his heir. If Joffery becoming king is truly such a terrific idea,  he could have tried something. Instead we see him literally do nothing until his deathbed, where he basically begs Ned to clean up his mess once more and fix Joffery. The man is simply a coward. He would never give up being king. 

7 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I'd swap Rhaegar with Aerys, as the execution of Rickard and Brandon didn't set off the rebellion. It was the call to execute Ned and Robert that pushed Jon to rebel.

Robert was really the only viable choice if you wanted to please the former loyalists with Targ blood and reward the leaders of the rebellion. Stannis spent the entire war in SE. No doubt that's important, but not quite as important as Robert's participation in every major battle fought in RR. More importantly Stannis hates the Tyrells and the Redwynes, and the war wasn't over until Mace dipped his banners. They still fear what he would do to them as king in 299 AC, so if Ned had been naming Stannis king at SE, I don't think it would have gone well.

The Tyrells’ fears of Stannis rising to the throne, probably were immensely amplified by his marriage to a house that has made claim to Highgarden. I don’t see in the immediate aftermath of the war of Stannis being king as a mortal threat.  Their influence with the throne and thus the rest of the country would be less substantial than what it had been under Robert, but I don’t see them fighting to the last man over this. I mean at this point the Tyrells would be seen as facing 5/7 or 4/7 of the of the entire country by themselves. 

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7 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

As far as we know Rhaegar was mentally health, his actions are the ones that started the chains of events, and after all the shit show that he started he disapeared for close to a year.

I agree with this sentiment. Rheagar knee Aerys was crazy. Rheagar doing absolutely nothing in order to lessen the chance of the little controversy he caused would rope his father in is irresponsible. I mean honestly, it doesn’t take a genius to know it’s likely Robert or one of the Starks are going to raise this issue with his father (given Rheagar wasn’t around) who has a tendency to overreact. 

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So is Rheagar the hero in RR? He although being largely responsible for it is trying to save humanity as a whole and he’s in the best position to do that as king. 

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3 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I agree with this sentiment. Rheagar knee Aerys was crazy. Rheagar doing absolutely nothing in order to lessen the chance of the little controversy he caused would rope his father in is irresponsible. I mean honestly, it doesn’t take a genius to know it’s likely Robert or one of the Starks are going to raise this issue with his father who has a tendency to overreact. 

Or maybe aerys wasn t mad enough to start killing his high lords without great cause and the story we know so far isnt the complete truth

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9 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And, I still see this as him just blaming others for his decisions. In this instance Joffery(to which most fans won’t mind because Joffery). If he truly cared about what would happen after he died, he would have tried to be more active in trying to change the boy, or theighn to make Tommen his heir. If Joffery becoming king is truly such a terrific idea,  he could have tried something. Instead we see him literally do nothing until his deathbed, where he basically begs Ned to clean up his mess once more and fix Joffery. The man is simply a coward. He would never give up being king. 

Robert cannot change the sucession in a whim, look what happened at the dance of dragons, when Viserys II did it.

Even if he abdicated and left Tommem to be the new king, he cannot be sure of who will be his regent, and the most obvious candidate for the role is Cersei.

Robert could not leave the IT. The best resolution for the kingdom would be Robert outliving Joffrey and Cersei.

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9 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

So is Rheagar the hero in RR? He although being largely responsible for it is trying to save humanity as a whole and he’s in the best position to do that as king. 

Rhaegar was more irresponsible than Robert, this in itself is a feat.

In my country we have a saying: "the hell is full of good intentions".

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19 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He would never give up being king.

He wanted to (not a very responsible notion), but was too afraid of how Joffrey would manage things on his death. If he had a Littlefinger or Viserys II working no his behalf, Joffrey might have been discreetly killed so Tommen could be heir instead. It would still be irresponsible to resign and let Cersei fight with Jon Arryn (or Ned Stark) over Tommen's regency, but would likely be acceptable to Robert (although someone like Arryn might still be able to badger him into staying on a while for Tommen to age up).

Regarding whether anything could have been done about Joffrey, I'm somewhat skeptical. Jon Arryn tried to foster his son and his wife killed him for it. Cersei would be unlikely to tolerate Robert interfering with her raising of Joffrey, and she has both the clout of the Lannister family (from which the crown has borrowed lots of money) and the allegiance of people close enough to Robert to kill him.

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On 12/18/2018 at 9:41 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

The realm under Robert was said to be peaceful enough that a girl could walk down the King's Road naked without being bothered. That's hyperbolic, but it's an exaggeration of a genuine sense of peace. Things go downhill when Robert dies and a civil war erupts.

The land was also peaceful during the reign of Aerys and the economy was thriving.  He left a full treasury.  Robert squandered all of that money and borrowed some more.

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On 12/16/2018 at 11:19 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Aerys lost his entire kingdom, one that he ran. Ramsay ruins one part of a kingdom that he does not run

 

On 12/16/2018 at 11:19 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Oh he's definitely bad and mad, but frankly he just hasn't has as much time or influence. That is why

So this is your main argument? That Aerys had responsibilities that Ramsay, Euron and seemingly every other character lacked? 

I cant support that, if anything it should justify some of Aerys' motives behind events like Duskendale or Brandon and Rikards death.

On 12/16/2018 at 11:19 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Basically everything he did post Duskendale and a fair amount before it. Euron is definitely mad. His IB say as much. If he controls as much territory for remotely as long as Aerys, he will be worse.

Aerys killed lords and traitors, its really not much different then Stannis. 

Even with Euron controlling his kingdom for only a few months its worse then Aerys' kingdom was anyday. Ships are being packed with citizens becoming enslaved, that never happend under Aerys.

On 12/16/2018 at 11:19 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Robb Stark had already started his war and fought both Lannister armies at this point.

To free his uncles. By the time Edmure and Hoster were freed Joffrey had killed Ned. Tyrion says it plainly enough to the acknowledgment of his father, Joffrey destroyed all chances of peace talks, to the sorrows of Sansa, Jaime, practically every smallfolk and noble, and Ned.

On 12/16/2018 at 11:19 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Lol Euron's intentions are immaterial to my point. Balon had already started a war and taken 4 northern castles at this point.

Which Euron proceeded to retreat from and turn his attention on a much bloodier war. 

On 12/16/2018 at 11:19 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Once again, scope. Walder is definitely a villain but other than the RW what has he done?

What did Osama Bin Ladin do besides 9/11? Answer probably a bunch, no lord rules with clean hands. And does it matter? He committed mass murder and betrayal. He also doomed his own family who are now the scorne of all man (and gods) even their Lannister friends. 

Aerys may have commited that much amount of murder but thanks to Jaime the largest crime scene was at the Twins

On 12/16/2018 at 11:19 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

As to LF, more often than not he's just letting people do what they want to do and goes along for the ride. He's definitely a bad(der) guy but hardly an arch villain.

He killed Jon Arryn and framed his muder on Lannister, he then framed Tyrion and helped defeat Ned, all of this was to the benefit of creating the war of 5 Kings; to which Petyr replies with a smile on his face, the war of 3 Queens is coming.

Dude is THE arch villain.

On 12/16/2018 at 11:19 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Never said it was. I just said that basically everyone acknowledges that the Targs are a threat to his life and his throne.

Sure, whos not? Grimey people Dornish and Ironlanders or the Golden Company that wont ever shut up. I understand why Robert ordered a hit on Dany like her father ordered one on him, its horrible but its the price of keeping your head and crown. Other characters have not been faced with that dilemma yet still act extra atrociously 

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On 12/18/2018 at 6:24 PM, Arthur Peres said:

The rebelion only started after Aerys asked for Ned and Robert heads, so I can see your point about him being more acountable than Rhaegar. But a madman is in no condition to make judmental calls. As far as we know Rhaegar was mentally health, his actions are the ones that started the chains of events, and after all the shit show that he started he disapeared for close to a year.

For those reason I blame Rhaegar more than Aerys.

I don’t blame Rhaegar as much as I blame Aerys and Jon. Every single great Lord that called their banners, from Arryn, Robert, Ned, Tully all had more power IMO than a Prince. Aerys and all the lords who went to war are more responsible for the war than Rhaegar. 

Rhaegar shares a lot of blame also. 

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