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Marcelowww

Eddard Stark and Catelyn Tully: The true villains

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Is there a more accurate example of idiots in the whole series?

Catelyn believed Baelish's lie and kidnapped Tyrion with with no real proof that he was truly the owner of the dagger, Eddard trusted Littlefinger, Eddard named Stannis the heir, startin the whole WOTFK by creatin chaos in the realm.

Both Cersei and Baelish tried to convince Eddard to bend the knee and accept Joffrey as his king, which would bring the realm peace. And what the "honorable" Ned Stark did? Named Stannis, a guy NO ONE liked the heir of Robert, AGAINST Robert's wishes, causing a war.

A lot of people shit on Robb, but for me the true responsibles not only for the fall of the Starks, but for the whole war are Catelyn and Eddard.

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5 hours ago, Marcelowww said:

Is there a more accurate example of idiots in the whole series?

Catelyn believed Baelish's lie and kidnapped Tyrion with with no real proof that he was truly the owner of the dagger, Eddard trusted Littlefinger, Eddard named Stannis the heir, startin the whole WOTFK by creatin chaos in the realm.

Both Cersei and Baelish tried to convince Eddard to bend the knee and accept Joffrey as his king, which would bring the realm peace. And what the "honorable" Ned Stark did? Named Stannis, a guy NO ONE liked the heir of Robert, AGAINST Robert's wishes, causing a war.

A lot of people shit on Robb, but for me the true responsibles not only for the fall of the Starks, but for the whole war are Catelyn and Eddard.

So, the liar and schemer Baelish isn't responsible? And Cersei trying to get Joffrey who wasn't even a son of Robert on the throne is flawless? lmao. Inheritance laws have little to do with "how well the heir is liked", it does however has everything to do with being the actual king's son or daughter.

George writes situations as a result of a chain of bad choices by a lot of people. It never falls on just one person.

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9 hours ago, Marcelowww said:

Is there a more accurate example of idiots in the whole series?

Catelyn believed Baelish's lie and kidnapped Tyrion with with no real proof that he was truly the owner of the dagger, Eddard trusted Littlefinger, Eddard named Stannis the heir, startin the whole WOTFK by creatin chaos in the realm.

Both Cersei and Baelish tried to convince Eddard to bend the knee and accept Joffrey as his king, which would bring the realm peace. And what the "honorable" Ned Stark did? Named Stannis, a guy NO ONE liked the heir of Robert, AGAINST Robert's wishes, causing a war.

A lot of people shit on Robb, but for me the true responsibles not only for the fall of the Starks, but for the whole war are Catelyn and Eddard.

Surely them falling for Littlefinger's scheming would make Ned and Catelyn the victims and Baelish the true villain. 

 

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I wouldn't say idiots. I'd say emotional. I love reading these post blaming people for acting stupidly or doing stuff that we know is a bad decision. Catelyn, Eddard, Sansa, Robb, etc. The OPs usually talk like they themselves are some kind of emotionless robots that would always see the correct action to take. You are completely missing out the fact the Catelyn has just had to watch her child in a bed for months waiting to see if he'll die. I'm guessing anyone wouldn't take much convincing at that point when it comes to their child's assassin.

As for Ned. He followed the law and his own judgment as best he could. Most likely the war would have broken out anyway as Varys was planning for a war.

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On 12/12/2018 at 7:39 AM, Marcelowww said:

Is there a more accurate example of idiots in the whole series?

Catelyn believed Baelish's lie and kidnapped Tyrion with with no real proof that he was truly the owner of the dagger, Eddard trusted Littlefinger, Eddard named Stannis the heir, startin the whole WOTFK by creatin chaos in the realm.

Both Cersei and Baelish tried to convince Eddard to bend the knee and accept Joffrey as his king, which would bring the realm peace. And what the "honorable" Ned Stark did? Named Stannis, a guy NO ONE liked the heir of Robert, AGAINST Robert's wishes, causing a war.

A lot of people shit on Robb, but for me the true responsibles not only for the fall of the Starks, but for the whole war are Catelyn and Eddard.

If you want to see real idiots, check out Theon in ACOK or Cersei in AFFC.  Their decisions are cringe-worthy even without the benefit of hindsight. 

The Starks' decisions are more or less reasonable considering what they know and have experienced at the time.

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Actually I blame Catelyn too for what happened to Eddard and to the Starks:

- in the books it's Catelyn who suggests Ned to become the king's Hand because, before receiving the letter, he chose not to leave

- with Eddard in King's Landing she should not have taken Tyrion because Ned would have been ( and actually was) in danger

- I know it's also Lysa's fault, but Ned would have never been beheaded if she didn't lose Tyrion

- she should have not freed Jaime! 

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On 1/23/2019 at 9:03 AM, cristina1996 said:

Actually I blame Catelyn too for what happened to Eddard and to the Starks:

- in the books it's Catelyn who suggests Ned to become the king's Hand because, before receiving the letter, he chose not to leave

- with Eddard in King's Landing she should not have taken Tyrion because Ned would have been ( and actually was) in danger

- I know it's also Lysa's fault, but Ned would have never been beheaded if she didn't lose Tyrion

- she should have not freed Jaime! 

- Lysa Arryn and Petyr Baelish were responsible for that. Plus Ned is a grown man and made his own decisions.

- She acted on impulse and grief for her son. It was a stupid mistake but Ned was the hand of the king, best friends with the king and the head of one of the most powerful families, there was no way he was going to be punished for what his wife done. They also had evidence that Tyrion tried to kill Bran.

- Ned was beheaded by Joffery and probably still would have been even if Cat still had Tyrion. Joffery would have done (and did) what he wanted.

- Again stupid mistake done by a desperate person who just lost her husband, two daughters, her home and thinks her two sons have been murdered.

Cat gets a bad rap but her actions are understandable when you think about what she has went through in such a short space of time.

Edited by KingMudd

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On 1/23/2019 at 4:03 AM, cristina1996 said:

Actually I blame Catelyn too for what happened to Eddard and to the Starks:

- in the books it's Catelyn who suggests Ned to become the king's Hand because, before receiving the letter, he chose not to leave

She also thought Sansa’s betrothal to Joffrey was a good idea. On paper it is, but considering what Joffrey did to her... no, it was stupid.

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On 1/28/2019 at 10:41 PM, KingMudd said:

- Lysa Arryn and Petyr Baelish were responsible for that. Plus Ned is a grown man and made his own decisions.

- She acted on impulse and grief for her son. It was a stupid mistake but Ned was the hand of the king, best friends with the king and the head of one of the most powerful families, there was no way he was going to be punished for what his wife done. They also had evidence that Tyrion tried to kill Bran.

- Ned was beheaded by Joffery and probably still would have been even if Cat still had Tyrion. Joffery would have done (and did) what he wanted.

- Again stupid mistake done by a desperate person who just lost her husband, two daughters, her home and thinks her two sons have been murdered.

Cat gets a bad rap but her actions are understandable when you think about what she has went through in such a short space of time.

Ok, of course in the end it was Ned's decision to go south despite her advices :rolleyes:, but she should have not captured Tyrion and of course freed Jaime, that was a mistake that had consequences on Robb I believe

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I wouldn't call them stupid but unprepaired. They went on war with wooden knives. In the end of Game of Thrones I think no matter what Catelyn did, Ned was sentenced dead. Ned was a threat for Littlefinger. I think the decision of Ned's execution was Littlefinger's. Joffrey was a tool. 

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On 1/29/2019 at 8:07 PM, Angel Eyes said:

She also thought Sansa’s betrothal to Joffrey was a good idea. On paper it is, but considering what Joffrey did to her... no, it was stupid.

Catelyn has some kind of crystal ball now? Nobody objected to the betrothal at first. And if anyone is to be criticised for not objecting to it, it should be Ned after the Trident incident. At Winterfell, the betrothal seemed like a perfectly fine idea

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15 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

And if anyone is to be criticised for not objecting to it, it should be Ned after the Trident incident. At Winterfell, the betrothal seemed like a perfectly fine idea

For Ned, it might have seemed trivial to end the betrothal, and didn't want to anger Robert; betrothals and their breaking is serious business, since Walder Frey defected to Tywin and Red Weddinged Robb over breaking his betrothal to one of his daughters. 

I'm not sure what would have broken Sansa's affection for Joffrey at that point in the story; the only thing I can think of is if Joffrey killed Arya at the Trident, and that's tragic in itself.

To be honest, some of these betrothals seem to be very poor ideas in hindsight. Like, what was Rickard Stark thinking when he betrothed Lyanna to Robert? She could have wound up like Cersei, cruel, petty and evil. 

Edited by Angel Eyes

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4 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

For Ned, it might have seemed trivial to end the betrothal, and didn't want to anger Robert; betrothals and their breaking is serious business, since Walder Frey defected to Tywin and Red Weddinged Robb over breaking his betrothal to one of his daughters. 

I'm not sure what would have broken Sansa's affection for Joffrey at that point in the story; the only thing I can think of is if Joffrey killed Arya at the Trident, and that's tragic in itself.

To be honest, some of these betrothals seem to be very poor ideas in hindsight. Like, what was Rickard Stark thinking when he betrothed Lyanna to Robert? She could have wound up like Cersei, cruel, petty and evil. 

That's because none of the characters are psychic and shouldn't be judged as such. The reason Catelyn was happy for the betrothal is because it's a huge honour, and her daughter will one day be queen. Nothing the Starks saw at Winterfell should have made her worry or dislike the betrothal. Ned, by contrast, knew what manner of person Joffrey was after the Trident. As did Robert. And yet they were both content to proceed with the betrothal. It is ridiculous to critique Catelyn in respect of the betrothal when Ned had actual reasons to end it.

As to your point about Lyanna/Robert...you could say the same of any match because no-one has the benefit of hindsight. Marrying anyone you don't know poses a risk of that person being monstrous, it's a feature of these arranged marriages. 

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35 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Ned, by contrast, knew what manner of person Joffrey was after the Trident. As did Robert. And yet they were both content to proceed with the betrothal. It is ridiculous to critique Catelyn in respect of the betrothal when Ned had actual reasons to end it.

As to your point about Lyanna/Robert...you could say the same of any match because no-one has the benefit of hindsight. Marrying anyone you don't know poses a risk of that person being monstrous, it's a feature of these arranged marriages. 

Isn't that what I'm saying, why Ned didn't break the betrothal between Sansa and Joffrey? I suggested why in that post: he didn't want to offend Robert, and breaking betrothals is serious business, if the Red Wedding is any indication. 

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