Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

[dbunting]

1 minute ago, Vaith said:

There's not a sole dichotomy between supporting a queen with Dothraki at her back, or a queen who has destroyed the Great Sept, killed a queen, kinslayed, and killed a Lord Paramount. I am astounded that in this world there is no mass Brotherhood-esque uprising that has rebelled in large swathes of Westeros, or a call for a great council that would support anyone bar Cersei and Dany. Not everyone has a reason to support Dany, but "exciting" isn't enough to spin out a Dany/Cersei conflict after they gave Dany an army that could crush Cersei in 2 seconds flat. 

And yet the Tarlys still did just that. Even after all that, and wiping out house Tyrell, they still supported her.

[divica]

2 minutes ago, Vaith said:

There's not a sole dichotomy between supporting a queen with Dothraki at her back, or a queen who has destroyed the Great Sept, killed a queen, kinslayed, and killed a Lord Paramount. I am astounded that in this world there is no mass Brotherhood-esque uprising that has rebelled in large swathes of Westeros, or a call for a great council that would support anyone bar Cersei and Dany. Not everyone has a reason to support Dany, but "exciting" isn't enough to spin out a Dany/Cersei conflict after they gave Dany an army that could crush Cersei in 2 seconds flat. 

This is so true! I would find it much likely that all kingdoms would want to be independent than chose one of those 2 Queens.

It is funny that watching the show it becomes obvious that westeros needs a faegon supported by arianne to gather the support of the Southern kingdoms...

[Cas Stark]

Just now, dbunting said:

And yet the Tarlys still did just that. Even after all that, and wiping out house Tyrell, they still supported her.

That was bad writing, if you ask me, which no one did.  

[Vaith]

3 minutes ago, dbunting said:

And yet the Tarlys still did just that. Even after all that, and wiping out house Tyrell, they still supported her.

Yeah. Illogically. Why should they support Cersei, just because she's against Dany? They could declare independence, or that a more suitable heir needs to be found in a great council.

[dbunting]

1 minute ago, divica said:

Varys would know where the wildfire is kept. Or know the secret ways into the red keep so that they can assassinate cersei. The moment they can smugle people into KL taking the city is doable! 

Hell, theon took winterfell with 50 IB!

Again, Varys left with Tyrion, he has no idea what has been moved where since he left. His little birds are Qyburns now.

Please tell me you aren't going to really use Winterfell as support for this? Winterfell was left unprotected because Robb felt the north was entirely safe. The Greyjoys were not seen as invaders so they were able to just walk right in. If Winterfell was closed up for a siege that never would have happened. Cersei is paranoid and on guard, has the city watch and Lannister army there, very different situation.

[divica]

3 minutes ago, dbunting said:

And yet the Tarlys still did just that. Even after all that, and wiping out house Tyrell, they still supported her.

Do you think that the tarlys suporting cersei makes any sense? She killed their queen and warden, blew up the septon and the the tarlys supported the targeryens in the rebellion. They might not want to side with danny, but joining cersei? NEVER!

[dbunting]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

That was bad writing, if you ask me, which no one did.  

 

Just now, Vaith said:

Yeah. Illogically. Why should they support Cersei, just because she's against Dany? They could declare independence, or that a more suitable heir needs to be found in a great council.

But when we are discussing this show we need to take what has actually happened in the show as fact, not what we want or what we would have done.

[dbunting]

Just now, divica said:

Do you think that the tarlys suporting cersei makes any sense? She killed their queen and warden, blew up the septon and the the tarlys supported the targeryens in the rebellion. They might not want to side with danny, but joining cersei? NEVER!

Again. You must use what the show has done and base things on that when discussing motives and such. Cersei would've been dead long ago in reality.

[Vaith]

Just now, dbunting said:

 

But when we are discussing this show we need to take what has actually happened in the show as fact, not what we want or what we would have done.

The show isn't real. It's written by Benioff & Weiss, it's not a history of the world.

I could write a script about Westeros where Twinklehoof the horse took the Iron Throne and the sky rained cotton candy. Doesn't mean that it makes sense, even if it's something that "actually happened."

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, dbunting said:

Again. You must use what the show has done and base things on that when discussing motives and such. Cersei would've been dead long ago in reality.

Taking what thw show has done to understand events doesn't really work though... because the show lacks internal consistency, it doesn't make sense on its own. That's why characters  constantly come across as dumb. 

[dbunting]

1 minute ago, Vaith said:

The show isn't real. It's written by Benioff & Weiss, it's not a history of the world.

I could write a script about Westeros where Twinklehoof the horse took the Iron Throne and the sky rained cotton candy. Doesn't mean that it makes sense, even if it's something that "actually happened."

Then do that, but don't come to a forum that is created to discuss a show and then say it isn't real. Of course it's not real. But if you are here to discuss the show then you have to use show logic and facts.

The books are much different BTW....why would people support Stannis who used magic to kill his own brother and burned his own bannerman alive?

[Cas Stark]

3 minutes ago, dbunting said:

 

But when we are discussing this show we need to take what has actually happened in the show as fact, not what we want or what we would have done.

Yeah, but this is a thread dedicated to ranting and raving about the various stupid and silly contrivances that the show puts forth to get things from A to B. 

Such as, having Dany, not show up at KL with her forces and demand Cersei bend the knee, blockade the city and wait her out...instead, she hangs out at Dragonstone, and, in order to even the odds with Cersei, a showrunner favorite, she is seen to stupidly piss away first her navy, then part of her army, and then, lastly on the stupidest of stupid plot contrivances, a dragon for the wight hunt.

 

[Bradam]

8 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

Sounds a lot like:

I ran out of gas
I had a flat tire
I didn't have enough money for cab fare.
My tux didn't come back from the cleaners.
An old friend came from out of town.
Someone stole my car.
There was an earthquake.
A terrible flood.
Locust!

It wasn't D&D's fault!
 

hah but they don't have a machine gun wielding carrie fisher after them either..

[divica]

1 minute ago, dbunting said:

Then do that, but don't come to a forum that is created to discuss a show and then say it isn't real. Of course it's not real. But if you are here to discuss the show then you have to use show logic and facts.

The books are much different BTW....why would people support Stannis who used magic to kill his own brother and burned his own bannerman alive?

Because they don t know that he killed his brother and because they believe in r'hllor...

The problem is that using show logic the tarlys would never have suported cersei. The fact that they did doesn t mean that it makes sense. It is just bad writting. If D&D wanted to add people to cersei's army they should have used some stormland's lord. THAT would be smart.

[dbunting]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

Yeah, but this is a thread dedicated to ranting and raving about the various stupid and silly contrivances that the show puts forth to get things from A to B. 

Such as, having Dany, not show up at KL with her forces and demand Cersei bend the knee, blockade the city and wait her out...instead, she hangs out at Dragonstone, and, in order to even the odds with Cersei, a showrunner favorite, she is seen to stupidly piss away first her navy, then part of her army, and then, lastly on the stupidest of stupid plot contrivances, a dragon for the wight hunt.

 

Can't argue with that, and forgot I was in Rant and rave section.

[Vaith]

3 minutes ago, dbunting said:

The books are much different BTW....why would people support Stannis who used magic to kill his own brother and burned his own bannerman alive?

Stannis is portrayed as being rather unpopular in the books, and we get the perspective of his supporters who are there out of a sense of personal loyalty, or an unwavering support for someone who they view as the legitimate king. GRRM actually gives us an insight into how Stannis is perceived by people. Cersei's supporters? Well they're just fine with their ruler being completely evil, I guess. There's no nuance at all there.

Your argument seems to boil down to "it makes sense, because it happened, and don't question it!"

[Cas Stark]

5 minutes ago, divica said:

Because they don t know that he killed his brother and because they believe in r'hllor...

The problem is that using show logic the tarlys would never have suported cersei. The fact that they did doesn t mean that it makes sense. It is just bad writting. If D&D wanted to add people to cersei's army they should have used some stormland's lord. THAT would be smart.

I would also say, the show can't have it both ways.  If Tarly is such a worthless turncloak, that he abandons House Tyrell for Cersei Lannister, then there is no way in hell he wouldn't go ahead and turn his cloak again for Dany.  But, all of a sudden, he's principled, when one episode ago, he agrees to serve the woman who killed his liege lord and his queen and destroyed the Westerosi pope and vatican.  

That's a character doing whatever any given scene or plot point demands, with no consistency from scene to scene.

[dbunting]

2 minutes ago, divica said:

Because they don t know that he killed his brother and because they believe in r'hllor...

The problem is that using show logic the tarlys would never have suported cersei. The fact that they did doesn t mean that it makes sense. It is just bad writting. If D&D wanted to add people to cersei's army they should have used some stormland's lord. THAT would be smart.

Hey, forgot I was in rant and rave. So rant away. I used to avoid this section like the plague but got sucked in today!

My rant would still be against Stannis, book and show. He is supposed to be logical, military minded no nonsense guy but he gets swayed by a priestess and changes his religion all of a sudden? Then is so fanatical in it that he burns his own people for not changing their beliefs? If he hadn't done all that he would've won from the start.

[dbunting]

3 minutes ago, Vaith said:

Stannis is portrayed as being rather unpopular in the books, and we get the perspective of his supporters who are there out of a sense of personal loyalty, or an unwavering support for someone who they view as the legitimate king. GRRM actually gives us an insight into how Stannis is perceived by people. Cersei's supporters? Well they're just fine with their ruler being completely evil, I guess. There's no nuance at all there.

Your argument seems to boil down to "it makes sense, because it happened, and don't question it!"

No, just see my other posts, I forgot where I was. Here we are free to rant about anything show related free from people like me trying to make sense of it. That's what I meant by show facts.

[Cas Stark]

Just now, dbunting said:

No, just see my other posts, I forgot where I was. Here we are free to rant about anything show related free from people like me trying to make sense of it. That's what I meant by show facts.

Yes, but the show itself isn't consistent.  Why does Tarly agree to serve the killer of his liege lord, also his queen, also the destroyer of the symbol of his religion, and then an episode or two later, he refuses to bend the knee to Danerys? It makes no sense.  It lacks internal logic or consistency for the character.  If he's a POS mercenary turncloak, he turns his cloak for Dany too.  So, I say again, it's bad writing, where Tarly does whatever the writers want at the time, with no thought to grounding it in any realistic character.