Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

[Tijgy]

14 hours ago, Vaith said:

From what I can deduce:

Beginning of Season 7:
Jon: King in the North
Sansa: Lady of Winterfell, even though WF is Jon's seat(?)

Beginning of Season 8:
Sansa: Lady of Winterfell, head of House Stark, sworn to Dany
Dany: Claimant Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. 
Jon: Warden of the North (like how Daven is for Cersei in the books), or nothing. 

I think Jon isn't anything anymore. But Sansa has been the Lady of Winterfell indeed since season 7 (and mentioned to Bran he was actually the Lord of Winterfell and Bran went crazy so she is still the Lady )

3 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

I actually thought BranBot sitting in one spot through the whole episode and staring at everyone/freaking them all out was stupid. But yeah him and Jaime having the eye contact was epic.  At least Jaime didnt waste any time and got to WintferFell via teleportation.

Nobody thought they should get Branbot out of the cold.

3 hours ago, SuperMario said:

Yeah, I think it's the actors lacking chemistry together. The Ds are forcing it hard for us to like them, but the actors aren't selling it well. Emilia doesn't seem that enamored with Kit.

I think they both hate just the idea fo Dany and Jon together

[Suzanna Stormborn]

2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

If aunt/nephew & uncle/niece marriages were ok, they'd happen a lot more often. Victarion thinks about marrying Asha for a power play (incest and pseudo incest are always tied to some sort of backwards/short-sighted thinking) and he grosses himself out. 

I'll leave the rest. as too much of this subject starts to make me nauseous. 

 

How did you get through the books/side books then? All Targs marry bro to sis across all generations. Ned's grandparents were first cousins, Twyin and Joanna were first cousins, Obvi Jaime and Cersei was happening the whole time and had 3 kids, there are like 1 hundred more examples..... incest is ok and happens regularly in these stories, it is not looked at as that big of a deal at all.

[Vaith]

2 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

How did you get through the books/side books then? All Targs marry bro to sis across all generations. Ned's grandparents were first cousins, Twyin and Joanna were first cousins, Obvi Jaime and Cersei was happening the whole time and had 3 kids, there are like 1 hundred more examples..... incest is ok and happens regularly in these stories, it is not looked at as that big of a deal at all.

Did you miss the bit yourself where it's said that Cersei and Jaime's children would be put to death as abominations of incest?

The Targaryens were given a special dispensation by the Faith to marry incestuously on account of being Valyrians. Among normal Westerosi characters, anything closer than first cousins would be taboo, although there are some examples of half-uncle/half-niece marriages among the Starks. 

[SuperMario]

6 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

How did you get through the books/side books then? All Targs marry bro to sis across all generations. Ned's grandparents were first cousins, Twyin and Joanna were first cousins, Obvi Jaime and Cersei was happening the whole time and had 3 kids, there are like 1 hundred more examples..... incest is ok and happens regularly in these stories, it is not looked at as that big of a deal at all.

It may happen somewhat regularly, but it is not ok. It is actually looked at as taboo. Other than the Targs, most other families did not practice it. Throughout the books and the show, the incestuous relationships have been foreshadowing downfall and doom. Craster was doomed. Jaime, Cersei and their offspring are/were all doomed. And Jon and Dany will likely be too.

[Art Vandelay]

This has probably already been discussed, but did Sam, who's smart because he reads books and stuff but not as smart as Sansa because she... wait how is Sansa the smartest person Arya has ever met? Has she never met anyone else? I've seen her meet other people so this makes no sense.

Sorry, my original point: Sam who is portrayed as one of the smarter characters on the show got it into his head that Jon Snow is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. The Iron Throne that the Baratheon's won. He's not a Baratheon, Sam himself outright states this. So how, other than bad writing to manufacture conflict, is he supposed to come to the conclusion that Jon is the heir? Targs aren't on the Throne, they lost it, therefore he's not the heir to it.

The opening dialogue was awful, again. They've put the two worst actors on the show into a romance that just feels wrong and focused 10 minutes on their weird Disney adventure instead of maybe fleshing out some of the other things going on or maybe showing the White Walkers as an actual threat. Maybe having someone react to Bran's news about the Wall and the undead dragon.

[Cas Stark]

14 minutes ago, Art Vandelay said:

This has probably already been discussed, but did Sam, who's smart because he reads books and stuff but not as smart as Sansa because she... wait how is Sansa the smartest person Arya has ever met? Has she never met anyone else? I've seen her meet other people so this makes no sense.

Sorry, my original point: Sam who is portrayed as one of the smarter characters on the show got it into his head that Jon Snow is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. The Iron Throne that the Baratheon's won. He's not a Baratheon, Sam himself outright states this. So how, other than bad writing to manufacture conflict, is he supposed to come to the conclusion that Jon is the heir? Targs aren't on the Throne, they lost it, therefore he's not the heir to it.

The opening dialogue was awful, again. They've put the two worst actors on the show into a romance that just feels wrong and focused 10 minutes on their weird Disney adventure instead of maybe fleshing out some of the other things going on or maybe showing the White Walkers as an actual threat. Maybe having someone react to Bran's news about the Wall and the undead dragon.

Well, there aren't any more Baratheons, not even fake Lannister Baratheons, everyone has forgotten that Gendry is a bastard Baratheon, but even so, he's a blacksmith, not really kingly material.  So, there is no one to inherit Robert's crown.  The next best thing then would be a reversion to the previous dynasty, which is the Targaryens.  

It is a shame that of all the great casting done on the show, among the worst, if not THE worst, are Kit and Emilia. 

[Art Vandelay]

3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Well, there aren't any more Baratheons, not even fake Lannister Baratheons, everyone has forgotten that Gendry is a bastard Baratheon, but even so, he's a blacksmith, not really kingly material.  So, there is no one to inherit Robert's crown.  The next best thing then would be a reversion to the previous dynasty, which is the Targaryens.  

It is a shame that of all the great casting done on the show, among the worst, if not THE worst, are Kit and Emilia. 

I completely forgot that they killed them all in the show and abandoned the whole Gendry thing. Most of the show is so throw away that I think my brain automatically replaces parts that don't work with things from the books once a certain amount of time has passed.

It still doesn't 100% wash when there's technically a Baratheon there in Cersei, but I suppose I'd be the fool if I got into any sort of logic battle with this show. The whole thing just felt like manufactured drama for later.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

48 minutes ago, SuperMario said:

It may happen somewhat regularly, but it is not ok. It is actually looked at as taboo. Other than the Targs, most other families did not practice it. Throughout the books and the show, the incestuous relationships have been foreshadowing downfall and doom. Craster was doomed. Jaime, Cersei and their offspring are/were all doomed. And Jon and Dany will likely be too.

Craster was a rapist/abductor. Different

Jaime and Cersei had a prophecy that all their children would die, nothing to do with the incest.

I disagree about the doom foreshadowing, this does not exist in the books, all the Targ's did it for millenia in Valyria and in Westeros.

And for the show I do not recall doom foreshadowed related to incest?

 

I agree that it's taboo for other families to marry brother to sister besides the Targs, but that's it really. Cousins are totes fine.  I dont recall any other nephew/aunt situation coming up.  And yeah if Euron and Osha had married I really dont think anyone would have cared, certainly the Ironborn wouldnt have cared.

[sweetsunray]

9 hours ago, Ser Drewy said:

I feel like they're trying to reference Arya telling Syrio the wooden sword is too heavy for some reason, forgetting that Valyrian steel is lighter than regular steel, or Syrio's advice: "It's as strong as it needs to be to make you strong." But I'm just guessing. 

Based on the sneek-peek for next episode combined with the trailer, you might be right. Arya says something in the trailer along the lines of "I know death. It has many faces. I'm looking forward to see this one" while we see Arya smile at the new toy she asked Gendry to make for her. But the trailer also shows a bloodied and scared Arya running through WF hallways. The sneek-peek of epi 2 also includes Arya mentioning she's looking forward to seeing "this" face of death while holding her new toy. So, the running Arya is from epi 3 during the battle at WF with the army of the dead.

I guess it's supposed to be part of the break-down of the personna she became as faceless woman. She's confident and eager for the battle in epi 2 in other words, but will resort back to S1 Arya running away from an unwinnable fight because "what do we say to death? Not today".

[Ser Drewy]

Is it me or does it seem like S8 has no real plot? It's just biding time until the Night King reaches Winterfell. They spent 5 minutes on people walking to Winterfell this episode. I think the next episodes are going to be a bunch of plot points and reveals thrown together without appropriate exploration or substance. 

[divica]

1 minute ago, Ser Drewy said:

Is it me or does it seem like S8 has no real plot? It's just biding time until the Night King reaches Winterfell. They spent 5 minutes on people walking to Winterfell this episode. I think the next episodes are going to be a bunch of plot points and reveals thrown together without appropriate exploration or substance. 

Nah. Next episode we have Jaimie giving the news about cersei's betrayal and hopefully dealing with jon's parentage. Besides the goodbyes before the big battle.

It has potential to be a good episode

[Vaith]

19 minutes ago, Ser Drewy said:

Is it me or does it seem like S8 has no real plot? It's just biding time until the Night King reaches Winterfell. They spent 5 minutes on people walking to Winterfell this episode. I think the next episodes are going to be a bunch of plot points and reveals thrown together without appropriate exploration or substance. 

I think they'll lose at Winterfell in Ep2 and have to come south to face Cersei. Otherwise the stuff with her is going to be entirely disconnected from Team Daenerys. 

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

21 minutes ago, Ser Drewy said:

Is it me or does it seem like S8 has no real plot? It's just biding time until the Night King reaches Winterfell. They spent 5 minutes on people walking to Winterfell this episode. I think the next episodes are going to be a bunch of plot points and reveals thrown together without appropriate exploration or substance. 

It's the "longest battle scene ever filmed"^TM, what more do you want?

[divica]

Another thing. In order for cersei to be receiving ravens with news about what is happening in winterfell who is sending the letters? 

[Ser Drewy]

2 minutes ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

It's the "longest battle scene ever filmed"^TM, what more do you want?

Hilariously, Sapochnik said he did a lot of research to find a longer one, and there wasn't. Only Helm's Deep comes close. Except... Peter Jackson's Pelenor Fields, in the very next film, was longer than Helm's Deep. So I guess he didn't look very hard. 

[Vaith]

2 minutes ago, divica said:

Another thing. In order for cersei to be receiving ravens with news about what is happening in winterfell who is sending the letters? 

I guess maybe the Night's Watch still has a ravenry and would send news of important things like a huge chunk of the Wall falling to King's Landing. 

[divica]

1 minute ago, Vaith said:

I guess maybe the Night's Watch still has a ravenry and would send news of important things like a huge chunk of the Wall falling to King's Landing. 

good point sir

[Lollygag]

3 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

How did you get through the books/side books then? All Targs marry bro to sis across all generations. Ned's grandparents were first cousins, Twyin and Joanna were first cousins, Obvi Jaime and Cersei was happening the whole time and had 3 kids, there are like 1 hundred more examples..... incest is ok and happens regularly in these stories, it is not looked at as that big of a deal at all.

It was apparent that Viserys/Dany weren't getting together from the beginning, so I read on and was already hooked before I realized in would be a major thing in-series. Not as grossed out by first cousins as they're less related and there's really not much of that at all anyhow. Jaime and Cersei were clearly portrayed as toxic and destructive being introduced along with child murder and the decent into war, thus something to overcome. Don't read the Targ stuff, though that's more because I like real stories and real characters over histories. 

Thematically, it's not ok at all which is another reason I didn't quit reading. Take a look at the character's headspace when you see anything incesty. Their priorities are always out of whack at that time and GRRM uses incest as a flashing neon marker to explore the variations of this mind-set at a character level. Theon feels up Asha and she lets him as a joke. They're rivals for their father's heirship, and this rivalry causes Theon to take Winterfell and start a chain leading to all of the turmoil after, time which could have been spent planning for the WWs. Victarion turns away from incest and he will be pivotal in getting Dany to Westeros to help, especially as he's...whatever he is...which is opposed to the Others. Jaime and Cersei plunge the country into a devastating war with their choice which puts all way behind where it could have been in the battle with the WWs and winter. Jon and Dany forming an alliance is a good idea, but going beyond that results in turmoil. As Jaime gets his priorities right (finally!), he puts incest behind. It's no coincidence that Jaime's leaving incest and getting his perspective righted is contrasted on the show with Jon/Dany whose relationship will cause turmoil at the worst time.  The wildlings have a vicious hatred of incest not even marrying in their own village and they have their priorities right in regards to the real conflict of the series, that being the WWs. Craster is put in contrast. He engages in the worst incest and he aids the WWs. There's not a single exception to this treatment in the main books where there's a character head-space to explore with it and it's the common treatment of incest in all kinds of books, tv shows and movies. Watch out for it when you come across it. You'll see. 

It's not true at all that if a person makes it through the series, they think "incest is ok" in this world. I see tons of comments to the contrary on this forum. It's also not accurate at all that it's viewed as ok in this world. It's tolerated with the Targs, but that's not to be equated with Westeros being ok with it.

This is only from part of ACOK. 

Quote

ACOK Davos I

All men know me for the trueborn son of Steffon Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End, by his lady wife Cassana of House Estermont. I declare upon the honor of my House that my beloved brother Robert, our late king, left no trueborn issue of his body, the boy Joffrey, the boy Tommen, and the girl Myrcella being abominations born of incest between Cersei Lannister and her brother Jaime the Kingslayer. By right of birth and blood, I do this day lay claim to the Iron Throne of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. 

ACOK Tyrion III

Cersei turned on him in green-eyed fury. "Are you utterly witless? Did you read what he says? The boy Joffrey, he calls him. And he dares to accuse me of incest, adultery, and treason!" 

ACOK Bran II

"Joffrey the Illborn," one of the Cerwyn knights growled. "Small wonder he's faithless, with the Kingslayer for a father."

"Aye," said another, "the gods hate incest. Look how they brought down the Targaryens." 

ACOK Tyrion V

"Corruption!" the man cried shrilly. "There is the warning! Behold the Father's scourge!" He pointed at the fuzzy red wound in the sky. From this vantage, the distant castle on Aegon's High Hill was directly behind him, with the comet hanging forebodingly over its towers. A clever choice of stage, Tyrion reflected. "We have become swollen, bloated, foul. Brother couples with sister in the bed of kings, and the fruit of their incest capers in his palace to the piping of a twisted little monkey demon. Highborn ladies fornicate with fools and give birth to monsters! Even the High Septon has forgotten the gods!

ACOK Catelyn III

Renly laughed. "You must forgive Lady Catelyn, Stannis. She's come all the way down from Riverrun, a long way ahorse. I fear she never saw your little letter."

"Joffrey is not my brother's seed," Stannis said bluntly. "Nor is Tommen. They are bastards. The girl as well. All three of them abominations born of incest." 

Would even Cersei be so mad? Catelyn was speechless.

ACOK Catelyn IV

She had seen enough of Robert Baratheon at Winterfell to know that the king did not regard Joffrey with any great warmth. If the boy was truly Jaime's seed, Robert would have put him to death along with his mother, and few would have condemned him. Bastards were common enough, but incest was a monstrous sin to both old gods and new, and the children of such wickedness were named abominations in sept and godswood alike. The dragon kings had wed brother to sister, but they were the blood of old Valyria where such practices had been common, and like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men. 
 

 

[SeanF]

6 hours ago, Lollygag said:

If aunt/nephew & uncle/niece marriages were ok, they'd happen a lot more often. Victarion thinks about marrying Asha for a power play (incest and pseudo incest are always tied to some sort of backwards/short-sighted thinking) and he grosses himself out. 

I'll leave the rest. as too much of this subject starts to make me nauseous. 

 

Aunt/nephew, Uncle/niece marriages were not the norm historically, among royalty, but nor were they that unusual.

[Vaith]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Aunt/nephew, Uncle/niece marriages were not the norm historically, among royalty, but nor were they that unusual.

Westeros isn't a 1:1 for medieval Europe, though. Since medieval Europe didn't have a powerful incestuous family, I don't think you can entirely hold Westeros to that standard on incest taboos.