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Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!


The Fattest Leech

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32 minutes ago, divica said:

A completly stupid article tainted with extreme femeninism. It touches on one or two things that I agree, but the tone and mensage that women must be present, that they can t be victims and that there is an agenda against women revolts me.

And by the way, the rivalry between Jaime and euron last season was like scenes from mean girls and characters like bran or Jaime sufered and were victims to get where they are today.

I don't know how it's "extreme feminism" to remark on patterns across the show that are sexist, to be honest.

There are a lot more examples of women being petty to each other, like oh, Margaery's ladies laughing at Cersei at the beginning of Season 5, Arya and Sansa bickering over something very trivial (writing a letter under duress shouldn't be hard to understand). Or: Arianne empowering Myrcella by trying to make her queen of Westeros being changed to Ellaria murdering Myrcella. 

Did Bran and Jaime suffer? Yes. Did they suffer sexual abuse in the same way that Sansa and Dany did in order to get to where they are? No. I'm sure how you can see those are different things.

When you have a world where women and men are inequal, but do not criticise that in any way... I don't know why you're "revolted" at the concept that there might be some misogyny. 

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24 minutes ago, Vaith said:

I don't know how it's "extreme feminism" to remark on patterns across the show that are sexist, to be honest.

There are a lot more examples of women being petty to each other, like oh, Margaery's ladies laughing at Cersei at the beginning of Season 5, Arya and Sansa bickering over something very trivial (writing a letter under duress shouldn't be hard to understand). Or: Arianne empowering Myrcella by trying to make her queen of Westeros being changed to Ellaria murdering Myrcella. 

Did Bran and Jaime suffer? Yes. Did they suffer sexual abuse in the same way that Sansa and Dany did in order to get to where they are? No. I'm sure how you can see those are different things.

When you have a world where women and men are inequal, but do not criticise that in any way... I don't know why you're "revolted" at the concept that there might be some misogyny. 

People are petty. So it is normal for women to be petty sometimes. And men are petty too. Tyrion killed shae out of pettyness because she slept with his father, we have several men making fun of theon or varys because they are eunuchs or thinking that theon can t rule because he doesn t have a cock. Even in dorne we have a bunch of women killing doran because he was a "weak" man…

Saying that making bad things happen to women or having them behave stupidly is a show of sexism is revolting. Female characters shouldn t have a special treatment to not hurt people's feelings. And in this episode we had an example how these femininist movements afected the show. Is there any reason that euron is sailing around the world with yara without killing her or torturing her? 

Bran and Jaime or theon didn t suffer sexual abuse but danny or sansa didn t lose parts of their bodies… And there is a diference between sexism and being faithful to a representation of a time period. 

If you are making a show about a time period when women and men were inequal I don t know where is the sexism in showing that. I find much worse to try to show that everybody is equal when temathicaly they aren t. And I am not saying that there shouldn t be some women that are as good or better warriors and leaders than men. I am saying that it shouldn t become the norm for every female character and that we shouldn t ignore the mentality people had in those times in order to make a show better acepted in modern audiences.

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1 hour ago, Ser Drewy said:

I thought it was their weird attempt to mimic the Jon/Ygritte cave scene. 

three mounts must you ride… one to bed and one to dread and one to love

Jon is supposed to be Dany's 'One to Love' He is supposed to be her Blue Flower growing in the Wall of Ice.........

Jon and Ygritte had more chemistry and passion than Jon and Dany.

Dany and Drogo had 100 times more passion and more chemistry than Jon and Dany.

Yet these two are fulfilling all these prophecies together?

These two are the Song of Ice and Fire?

Do D&D not understand anything about this story or the novels? Is GRRM shooting up heroin at home to deal with this fucking travesty of his work?

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4 minutes ago, divica said:

People are petty. So it is normal for women to be petty sometimes. And men are petty too. Tyrion killed shae out of pettyness because she slept with his father, we have several men making fun of theon or varys because they are eunuchs or thinking that theon can t rule because he doesn t have a cock. Even in dorne we have a bunch of women killing doran because he was a "weak" man…

Saying that making bad things happen to women or having them behave stupidly is a show of sexism is revolting. Female characters shouldn t have a special treatment to not hurt people's feelings. And in this episode we had an example how these femininist movements afected the show. Is there any reason that euron is sailing around the world with yara without killing her or torturing her? 

Bran and Jaime or theon didn t suffer sexual abuse but danny or sansa didn t lose parts of their bodies… And there is a diference between sexism and being faithful to a representation of a time period. 

Yeah, and I'm against those instances of endorsing the shitty masculinity of Westeros too. Shocker.

In the show we don't have a character who becomes disabled who doesn't in the books. In the show we have a lot more rape in some instances, e.g. the stupid Sansa Marriage Strike and the stuff at Craster's Keep. I think it's fair to criticise that. 

Just now, divica said:

If you are making a show about a time period when women and men were inequal I don t know where is the sexism in showing that. I find much worse to try to show that everybody is equal when temathicaly they aren t. And I am not saying that there shouldn t be some women that are as good or better warriors and leaders than men. I am saying that it shouldn t become the norm for every female character and that we shouldn t ignore the mentality people had in those times in order to make a show better acepted in modern audiences.

300 Years after Aegon's Conquest isn't a time period. It's an original world that is the creation of Martin and has been adapted by Benioff & Weiss. "Those times" are fictitious and do not have to be analogous to the real world. I'm not saying that it's always a bad choice to create a world that has some form of sexism built into it, but Benioff & Weiss have not criticised in-verse sexism as much as Martin does. 

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11 minutes ago, Vaith said:

Yeah, and I'm against those instances of endorsing the shitty masculinity of Westeros too. Shocker.

In the show we don't have a character who becomes disabled who doesn't in the books. In the show we have a lot more rape in some instances, e.g. the stupid Sansa Marriage Strike and the stuff at Craster's Keep. I think it's fair to criticise that. 

The character that sansa is replacing was equally mistreated by ramsey. If she is taking the role of farya it was expected that she would suffer abuse… And what part of craster keep didn t happen in the books? And by the way, I think there is no garantee that theon is completly eunuch in the books while it is clear in the show.

But my point is that the abuses those women sufered happened in the show because they were common in medieval times and not because there is some mission to have women raped...

11 minutes ago, Vaith said:

300 Years after Aegon's Conquest isn't a time period. It's an original world that is the creation of Martin and has been adapted by Benioff & Weiss. "Those times" are fictitious and do not have to be analogous to the real world. I'm not saying that it's always a bad choice to create a world that has some form of sexism built into it, but Benioff & Weiss have not criticised in-verse sexism as much as Martin does. 

Most of the laws and ways of thinking of westeros are analogous to real world medieval times… 

But let me be explicit. Look at the first paragraph:

Quote

Game of Thrones has come under fire before for its portrayal of women, from a rape scene shot to emphasize the suffering of a male victim to hackneyed plots that turn otherwise strong female characters into damsels in distress. This may have something to do with the male-heavy writers’ room: There are four men on Game of Thrones’ writing staff, though three women have received writing credits on a handful of episodes over the show’s eight seasons; women were shut out of both writing and directing jobs for every episode in season 8. But it’s also in keeping with the traditions of the fantasy genre, in which stories lean on the idea that women have to suffer in order to become powerful. On Game of Thrones, just about every powerful woman left on the show has been sexually abused or humiliated in some way.

Sansa was raped to hurt theon? IT wasn t because it was in line with ramsey's psicopathic behaviour? because he wanted to humiliate sansa? Or because farya is abused in the books? Or is the problem that theon was crying?

Then, if a woman has problems she must save herself otherwise she is a damsel in distress and that can t happen? having a man save a woman shouldn t happen...

And then we have the indirects that only woman can write scenes for women and that some episodes should be directed by women because they are women. If it was written that some women should have these tasks because they are better at their job that the people involved in the show I would support this statement completly. Saying that someone should have a job because she is a woman doesn t work for me...

And then we end with the femininist insult that women must suffer and be humiliated… Haven t theon, tyrion, sam or varys also been humilated for example?

Quote

In recent years, though, the show has made moves to improve its depictions of women. As we entered season 8, Sansa and Daenerys, two of the characters who have suffered the most on the show, were poised to finally meet. Each had grown from a pawn used by the men around them to powerful leaders and political players in their own right. But while their respective suffering may be over, subtle sexism still found its way into the script. The first episode of the eighth season played into one of the most tiresome and toxic tropes in Hollywood, politics, media and beyond: The catfight...

 I agree the catfight was stupid. However another paragraph about how men are evil and previleged and women good and deserved their current position and that their current behaviour is because of sexism was unecessary. They aren t having a stupid fight because they are woman. They are having a stupid fight because of their personalities and ideals...

Quote

We’ve seen this sort of mean girl behavior on Thrones before: In season 7, Sansa and Arya expressed suspicion toward one another for rather flimsy reasons... The sisters spent most of the season fighting about things in private that didn’t make a ton of sense: The two have always squabbled over what it means to be a powerful woman, but never over which one of them ought to have more power. Littlefinger wasn’t in the room during these fights, so it’s unclear whether they were genuine or a put-on—Bran actor Isaac Hampstead Wright has suggested the former, which just seems out of character for the two women, who are portrayed as smart and thoughtful...

Sansa and Daenerys do have legitimate issues with each other. But it would be easy enough to build tension between Sansa and Daenerys without the undertones of jealousy. I don’t think this explanation would have been given to describe why Jon might be suspicious of Jaime when he enters Winterfell, nor do I think the show would play up rivalries between men like they were scenes from Mean Girls.

I agree almost completly with the third paragraph. However we reach the final paragraph and once again we have the implications that danny and sansa are behaving this way because the writers are sexist and that it wouldn t happen with men (jorah wasn t ever jelous of daario for example...)

Can you honestly say that the article isn t written in an extremelly femenist tone that is more interested in criticizing men for making 2 female characters behave in a way than analizing the behaviour of the characters?

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2 minutes ago, divica said:

The character that sansa is replacing was equally mistreated by ramsey. If she is taking the role of farya it was expected that she would suffer abuse… And what part of craster keep didn t happen in the books? And by the way, I think there is no garantee that theon is completly eunuch in the books while it is clear in the show.

But my point is that the abuses those women sufered happened in the show because they were common in medieval times and not because there is some mission to have women raped...

But "Theon saves Ramsay's raped wife" was the only loose strand that they bothered to adapt.

They didn't give a logical explanation for:

  1. Roose marrying his heir to Joffrey's alleged killer and pissing off the Lannisters while he's fighting a war against Stannis.
  2. Littlefinger thinking that Stannis would make Roose's daughter-in-law Warden in the North
  3. Why no Northern Lords are present in Winterfell to give Sansa actual leverage over Roose and Ramsay

So it's fair to assume that she's an object just there for Theon to save and Ramsay to rape.

5 minutes ago, divica said:

Most of the laws and ways of thinking of westeros are analogous to real world medieval times… 

Medieval Europe didn't have an incestuous dynasty ruling over them. It didn't have winter that lasted for years or dragons and White Walkers. We already have a society that's not sexist at all in ASOIAF, which is Dorne. It shouldn't be a given that Westeros is a sexist place, and depiction of a sexist world should explain why it's a bad thing to a 21st century audience. GRRM isn't writing his books from the Middle Ages, nor are Benioff & Weiss writing their scripts from there. 

7 minutes ago, divica said:

Can you honestly say that the article isn t written in an extremelly femenist tone that is more interested in criticizing men for making 2 female characters behave in a way than analizing the behaviour of the characters?

Feminism is believing in equality of genders. It's not a bad thing. 

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1 minute ago, Vaith said:

But "Theon saves Ramsay's raped wife" was the only loose strand that they bothered to adapt.

They didn't give a logical explanation for:

  1. Roose marrying his heir to Joffrey's alleged killer and pissing off the Lannisters while he's fighting a war against Stannis.
  2. Littlefinger thinking that Stannis would make Roose's daughter-in-law Warden in the North
  3. Why no Northern Lords are present in Winterfell to give Sansa actual leverage over Roose and Ramsay

So it's fair to assume that she's an object just there for Theon to save and Ramsay to rape.

Medieval Europe didn't have an incestuous dynasty ruling over them. It didn't have winter that lasted for years or dragons and White Walkers. We already have a society that's not sexist at all in ASOIAF, which is Dorne. It shouldn't be a given that Westeros is a sexist place, and depiction of a sexist world should explain why it's a bad thing to a 21st century audience. GRRM isn't writing his books from the Middle Ages, nor are Benioff & Weiss writing their scripts from there. 

Feminism is believing in equality of genders. It's not a bad thing. 

The entire arc of sansa in the north was bad. They didn t care about the politics in the north…

However they adaped parts of the story like ramsey conquering deepwood motte using theon, roose marries a frey, stannis is marching to winterfell under a heavy storm and maybe a few others…. It wasn t he only one, however in order for farya/sansa to reunite with jon she and theon had to escape. It was a crucial point… The important thing to ask is if is in character for ramsey to rape sansa or not. If it is something that ramsey might do where is the sexism?

 

And unless I am wrong in my defenitions feminism is as bad as machism. The only diference is the gender...

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1 minute ago, divica said:

And unless I am wrong in my defenitions feminism is as bad as machism. The only diference is the gender...

Considering that feminism was conceived as the "liberation" of women at a time when none enjoyed equal rights, no. It's seeking equality for all genders and it happens that women have structurally been on the receiving end of sexism for the last several millennia of European history, and thus it makes sense to name such a movement over them.

Machism or masculism is essentially endorsing sexism. I don't see them tackling instances of men being sexually harassed, nor do I see any proposals to tackle male mental health or, for example, change the perception of gay men in society. To equate the two is really naive. 

I'm just going to leave it here, because R&R is supposed to be about show criticism rather than lengthy debates about this sort of stuff, but just putting it out there. 

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11 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Do we have the titles for the next 5 eps?

I just checked a few articles and then the wiki and it has nothing listed (or TBA) for the remaining episodes. 

Too spoilery? 

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19 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I just checked a few articles and then the wiki and it has nothing listed (or TBA) for the remaining episodes. 

Too spoilery? 

Unless the next episode is titled something like "Brienne Dies" I'm not sure the point of withholding it. For episode 3+ I can see them being withheld until after next week in case something "shocking" happens like Team Dany losing against the Walkers in WF.  

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1 minute ago, Vaith said:

Unless the next episode is titled something like "Brienne Dies" I'm not sure the point of withholding it. For episode 3+ I can see them being withheld until after next week in case something "shocking" happens like Team Dany losing against the Walkers in WF.  

wasn t the title winterfell only released at the same time or after the first episode?

 

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21 minutes ago, Vaith said:

Unless the next episode is titled something like "Brienne Dies" I'm not sure the point of withholding it. For episode 3+ I can see them being withheld until after next week in case something "shocking" happens like Team Dany losing against the Walkers in WF.  

Yeah, that’s what I am saying. I can’t imagine anything too devastating could be revealed :lol:  I mean, wasn’t that Spotify playlist supposed to be the big clue giver? 

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14 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yeah, that’s what I am saying. I can’t imagine anything too devastating could be revealed :lol:  I mean, wasn’t that Spotify playlist supposed to be the big clue giver? 

I mean if there's an episode called "The Death of Daenerys" the audience are going to see it pop on their screen before it happens anyway. Unless they want to do a cold opening when the title's revealed at the end. 

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25 minutes ago, DMC said:

No you don't.  Everyone here wants to, but you can enjoy the show just like any other human being.  There's no necessity here.  Frankly, I'm right now a bit out of wack.  My brother is enjoying his video games as he does, and i'm wondering if I should get high.  I think I'm gonna get high.  It's a much better feeling.

I mean, there'd be no necessity to question the show if it rained cotton candy in King's Landing or Arya sprouted wings. But if you want to analyse the show in any form, you kind of have to :dunno:

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...Wasn't the season 8 premier pretty much that - raining cotton candy and fan service?  :P  This isn't the place.  Yeah, a lot of it was shit - and some of it was shit that pissed me off.  But most of the episode?  It was high school reunion.  I haven't seen many movies like that.  Actually, the only one I do know of is Zach and Miri Make a Porno.  Which was (proudly?) filmed right here in Pittsburgh.  GoT is much better at this stuff than Seth Rogan taking grav bong hits and saying "that'll be cool" in the midst of coughs.

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18 hours ago, Vaith said:

Unless the next episode is titled something like "Brienne Dies" I'm not sure the point of withholding it. For episode 3+ I can see them being withheld until after next week in case something "shocking" happens like Team Dany losing against the Walkers in WF.  

LOLOLOL  That was my best laugh of the day so far, thank you.  :lmao:

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