Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

[Cas Stark]

45 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The show certainly did a good job of ridding Daenerys' character of most of the warmth, humour, compassion, and self-criticism which are features of her book counterpart.  Like you, I'm a bit mystified by people who claim the show "whitewashed" her. 

The portrayal of Ellaria Sand (and Stannis) is simply mystifying.  Tyrion's terrible mischaracterisation is (as you imply) the result of D & D making him their self-insert.  No one really understands what they were doing with Jaime and Sandra.

The showrunners seemed to have issues with the traditional romantic lead type actors once they started writing their own stories and the two actors/characters who bore the brunt of this subconscious or conscious resentment were Kit Harrington and NCW.  Thus, Jon Snow is reduced to an absolute dimwit for at least 2 seasons if not more, and Jamie's redemption arc began reversing itself from season 5 onward.  

The crazy thing is that the showrunners ruined even their favorite characters, LOL.  While show Cersei was much smarter and more sympathetic than her book counterpart, she still was ultimately reduced to staring out the window in a hideous wig.  Tyrion failed to give any good advice for the last 2 seasons.  And while Sansa wasn't one of their favorites their characterization of her was so bad they were reduced to having fan favorite Arya call her smart....even though in universe she continued to do exceedingly stupid stuff right up until the end. 

[The Dragon Demands]

46 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The portrayal of Ellaria Sand (and Stannis) is simply mystifying.  

No, they said why they changed it: "We reconceived the role to make it worthy of the actor's talents".

They like seeing their favorite actors chewing the scenery in scenes that feature heavy emoting. They don't even think of it coherently from one episode to the next.  It's worse than "their TV version of Ellaria is different" - there *is no* "TV-Ellaria".  It's just an actor sizzle-reel.

[The Dragon Demands]

yeah

[Prince of the North]

52 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

But sticking to the main cast...I'm not sure how the exact jigsaw pieces fit together in Season 8.  They seem to have prioritized "we wanted a big scene of Kit-Jon killing Emilia-Daenerys" - I say "prioritized" based on their own bizarre comments in the 'Inside the Episode" for the season finale (included on the Blu-ray), where they just....openly admit "we spent a long time rewriting that scene to get the dialogue and camerawork note perfect, to the point that we didn't really think of the aftermath with the small council etc or Jon and Tyrion's fates, so we just quickly wrote some stuff together" (it feels like they're rushed, half-finished ideas....because they're rushed, half-finished ideas.  Stop giving them the benefit of the doubt that these were "artistic choices").  

What?!!  You mean they actually didn't have things planned out years in advance like they said on multiple occasions?!  /s 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, The Dragon Demands said:

No, they said why they changed it: "We reconceived the role to make it worthy of the actor's talents".

They like seeing their favorite actors chewing the scenery in scenes that feature heavy emoting. They don't even think of it coherently from one episode to the next.  It's worse than "their TV version of Ellaria is different" - there *is no* "TV-Ellaria".  It's just an actor sizzle-reel.

Yeah, one cannot stress this thing enough. They do not adapt a book series. They write scenes for actors (or rather: people who are actors in other productions but 'playing' more or less themselves in this one) doing what they like those actors doing. If they had cast Anthony Hopkins for, say, Doran Martell or Pycelle they would have him do some Hannibal-Lecter-like stuff - or other things they knew or liked him doing in some of the great movies he was in.

There is nothing wrong with casting big names for roles - but then you use the talents of the actor to properly play the fucking role you cast them for. You do not change the role to make it 'worthy of the actor's talents'. And you can see shit like that happening as early as season 2 with those pointless and repetitive Tywin-Arya scenes. Tywin Lannister was a great role and there was a moment when you could shine very bright and dominate the scenes - in season 3 and 4, but not back in season 2. Charles Dance didn't need to be dragged in so many scenes and places he had no point of being in.

It is not bad per se to write additional scenes for characters - to give more detail to some plots, to streamline things, etc. - but they never wrote scenes for characters. They always wrote them for their actors. And this is why there is no consistency to any of the characters in the show - even back when they were still adapting book material.

This is how they work - and it gets worse with their later development of having actors make faces with little to know dialogue to convey 'the plot' rather than actually acting. Even their TV shit show was a complex story, one you cannot really tell with minimal dialogue.

[Cas Stark]

2 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

David Benioff is an utter narcissist, and has the extreme impulsivity often associated with narcissism.  The book character he's most like is really book-Cersei, so think of it in terms of that:  she plays favorites, but soon gets distracted by another shiny object.

They didn't just show off main cast members, but even minor recurring characters, at whim, who caught their eye ( Olly, Myranda, Ros, Locke, and many, many more - with cited quotes).  

But they don't think this out, coherently, as a long-term "plan" - so they make up a lot of scenes with no intention of where they're going from one season to the next.

But sticking to the main cast...I'm not sure how the exact jigsaw pieces fit together in Season 8.  They seem to have prioritized "we wanted a big scene of Kit-Jon killing Emilia-Daenerys" - I say "prioritized" based on their own bizarre comments in the 'Inside the Episode" for the season finale (included on the Blu-ray), where they just....openly admit "we spent a long time rewriting that scene to get the dialogue and camerawork note perfect, to the point that we didn't really think of the aftermath with the small council etc or Jon and Tyrion's fates, so we just quickly wrote some stuff together" (it feels like they're rushed, half-finished ideas....because they're rushed, half-finished ideas.  Stop giving them the benefit of the doubt that these were "artistic choices").  

So....was everything else in Season 8 just a "ripple effect" of that choice?
 

But yes, their disloyalty to prior "favorites" is still pretty disgusting.  Season 8 was pretty much the Maisie Williams Show, while Lena Headey.....we know she had a miscarriage storyline, Lena even came out and said she filmed it.  They threw out her storyline at the last minute, as they were writing Season 8 - we know this.

Well, hacks gotta hack.  It's hilarious that they admit...even though HBO gave them TWICE THE TIME...to write a season 1/3 shorter!!!! That they didn't spend any time on the end.  I have never given them the benefit of any doubt since season 3 that their 'artistic choices' were anything more than hacks hacking things up.  It was always clear, with a tiny handful of exceptions, that when they deviated from George's story the plot thread was either stupid or nonsensical or both. 

They also admitted they always focused on Big Moments^TM  which people have been saying for years, and is exactly the reason their plots fell apart, they didn't have the patience to work on them.

I'm not sure why they cut the miscarriage, it would have given Lena an emotional arc and an opportunity to act, instead of her doing nothing the whole final 2 seasons.  I had at least expected they'd give Lena a fabulous death, but again, no.  Whimpering as a pile of rocks falls on her, LOL. I can only thank god that they loved Maise and Arya, so that my favorite character came out of the series as one of the least destroyed. 

But the bottom line is that they did not have the talent or the patience to create the carefully constructed plotlines that were part of what made the show a critical and commercial hit.  They never had this skill but the lack was first masked by the book blueprints and then by the Big Moments until ultimately even the show's most ardent fans had to admit it all fell apart in the end and made no sense and ruined several main characters entire stories.

ETA...there is nothing inherently wrong w/trying to showcase your strongest actors.  There was nothing wrong with giving Ellaria a larger role, the problem there was making her a POS whose plots are self destructively dumb.  Killing your relatives to get revenge on your relatives being killed, is dumb....so no matter how much scenery she gets to chew, her motivations and actions are fucking moronic. 

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

Well, hacks gotta hack.

Hackers hack. Hacks churn and polish turds.

[Many-Faced Votary]

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

The portrayal of Ellaria Sand (and Stannis) is simply mystifying.  Tyrion's terrible mischaracterisation is (as you imply) the result of D & D making him their self-insert.  No one really understands what they were doing with Jaime and Sandra.

We should implement a glossary of names for the show's unintentional burlesques such that we can differentiate them from the nuanced and often sympathetic book characters, to be used throughout this board. I propose "Fauxllaria" for Ellaria. 

 

Satannis (as you can see, I'm not good at this ) was doomed from the beginning, for the show never did him any favors. That someone could fail to recognize, even from the most cursory perusal, that he is driven primarily by (perceived) duty baffles me. Even so, why would a supposed obsessive ambition entail one would murder their only heir in a feudal society in which power is derived from family name and lineage?

 

Jaime was largely only present as a convenient prop for Cersei and a justification of twincest. He had no other real purpose.

Not that D&D cared about book!Cersei, or adapting her, in the slightest, mind you. (She might ultimately be a terrible person and ineffectual ruler, but she is complex and far from a one-dimensional villain, and her poor decision-making is due mainly to paranoia and alcoholism, contrary to what many people seem to think.) Rather, I do not mean to make personal attacks, but it legitimately appears that her narcissism might have been evocative of the showrunners' own, as @The Dragon Demands suggests.

 

Sansa wasn't even a character. Well, virtually none of them were, really; what I mean to say is that she randomly switched personality traits and levels of competency more often than show!Melisandre unnecessarily bared her breasts. Which of the many faces of Sansa will the next scene feature? The answer may surprise you.

[SeanF]

14 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

We should implement a glossary of names for the show's unintentional burlesques such that we can differentiate them from the nuanced and often sympathetic book characters, to be used throughout this board. I propose "Fauxllaria" for Ellaria. 

 

Satannis (as you can see, I'm not good at this ) was doomed from the beginning, for the show never did him any favors. That someone could fail to recognize, even from the most cursory perusal, that he is driven primarily by (perceived) duty baffles me. Even so, why would a supposed obsessive ambition entail one would murder their only heir in a feudal society in which power is derived from family name and lineage?

 

Jaime was largely only present as a convenient prop for Cersei and a justification of twincest. He had no other real purpose.

Not that D&D cared about book!Cersei, or adapting her, in the slightest, mind you. (She might ultimately be a terrible person and ineffectual ruler, but she is complex and far from a one-dimensional villain, and her poor decision-making is due mainly to paranoia and alcoholism, contrary to what many people seem to think.) Rather, I do not mean to make personal attacks, but it legitimately appears that her narcissism might have been evocative of the showrunners' own, as @The Dragon Demands suggests.

 

Sansa wasn't even a character. Well, virtually none of them were, really; what I mean to say is that she randomly switched personality traits and levels of competency more often than show!Melisandre unnecessarily bared her breasts. Which of the many faces of Sansa will the next scene feature? The answer may surprise you.

I like Satannis and Fauxllaria.  

I think there was quite a list a while back.  I know Sansa was Sandra and Cersei was Carol.

[kissdbyfire]

4 hours ago, Corvinus said:

Hackers hack. Hacks churn and polish turds.

There’s not enough polishing material in the world to make this turd look good. 

3 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

We should implement a glossary of names for the show's unintentional burlesques such that we can differentiate them from the nuanced and often sympathetic book characters, to be used throughout this board. I propose "Fauxllaria" for Ellaria. 

There is one. I think it was officially published somewhere during or right after series 5, and no wonder. Series 5 was when it became impossible to deny - although many still did - that the show had jumped the shark kraken. 

3 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Satannis (as you can see, I'm not good at this ) was doomed from the beginning, for the show never did him any favors. That someone could fail to recognize, even from the most cursory perusal, that he is driven primarily by (perceived) duty baffles me. Even so, why would a supposed obsessive ambition entail one would murder their only heir in a feudal society in which power is derived from family name and lineage?

I have been calling snow!Stannis “Satannis” since that dumb as fuck episode in s05. . “20 GOOD MEN!!!”

In hindsight, it’s amazing how many still managed to defend this stupid-fest after s5. I mean, the writing’s been on the “Wall” since s01, but to still defend the show after s05... amazing how many optimists exist.  

3 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Jaime was largely only present as a convenient prop for Cersei and a justification of twincest. He had no other real purpose.

  

3 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Not that D&D cared about book!Cersei, or adapting her, in the slightest, mind you. (She might ultimately be a terrible person and ineffectual ruler, but she is complex and far from a one-dimensional villain, and her poor decision-making is due mainly to paranoia and alcoholism, contrary to what many people seem to think.) Rather, I do not mean to make personal attacks, but it legitimately appears that her narcissism might have been evocative of the showrunners' own, as @The Dragon Demands suggests.

To the show runners it’s not about Cersei, but Lena Headey. And 

I get it, to a degree; Lena is amazing and gorgeous and talented. But what a disservice they did, to both the character and the actor.

3 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

 

Sansa wasn't even a character. Well, virtually none of them were, really; what I mean to say is that she randomly switched personality traits and levels of competency more often than show!Melisandre unnecessarily bared her breasts. Which of the many faces of Sansa will the next scene feature? The answer may surprise you.

UGH, don’t even get me started on Sansa... that Sansa Poole storyline made zero sense. For viewers, but for the characters as well. Littlefinger became dumb as a bag of hammers, Sansa became even stupider, marrying into the family that slaughtered hers because “revenge!”. And the explanations and justifications, holy smokes, it’s enough to make one barf and barf and barf.

And viewers/fans are not w/o blame. People were actually claiming Sansa Poole was a good decision, since no one cared for Jeyne Poole, and having Sansa be Ramsay’s victim made people “care” more. What the actual fuck. 

[Many-Faced Votary]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

There is one. I think it was officially published somewhere during or right after series 5, and no wonder. Series 5 was when it became impossible to deny - although many still did - that the show had jumped the shark kraken. 

Now that the show is finally over, perhaps we could engage with like-minded readers and vote on the best pseudonyms for each character who was butchered adapted to the small screen for a new and exhaustive official list?

In any case, might I be so bold as to request a link or way to access the list in question, if it is still available?

 

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

I have been calling snow!Stannis “Satannis” since that dumb as fuck episode in s05. . “20 GOOD MEN!!!”

In hindsight, it’s amazing how many still managed to defend this stupid-fest after s5. I mean, the writing’s been on the “Wall” since s01, but to still defend the show after s05... amazing how many optimists exist.  

Ugh, show!Ramsay... the very definition of a Villain Sue, and not even in the way one would be entertained to watch, especially since they kept shoving into our faces how "OMG so ehvul" he is, yet we were also invited to sympathize with him according to the framing of various plotlines. Does this make him Ramsay Sue?

Satannis "For a foot of snow, Shireen must go." Badatheon was at least ironically funny in his absurdity. I should note that I liked show!Shireen since they didn't care about her enough to ruin her; but like Walda, or Trystane and Myrcella, or various other innocent minor characters, she was nothing more than a plot device on the show and could not be considered a real character.

 

There has never been a shortage of show apologists, ranging from the cautious optimists to the deluded superfans. To think there was a not insignificant group of viewers who propounded that the abomination Season 5 actually improved upon A Feast For Crows and A Dance With Dragons, by "trimming away the fat" and what have you.

 

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

  

"To be honest, I never really cared much for them, innocent or otherwise."

~ Jaime Grimy "Wait, why am I called Kingslayer again?" Lannister

 

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

To the show runners it’s not about Cersei, but Lena Headey. And  

I get it, to a degree; Lena is amazing and gorgeous and talented. But what a disservice they did, to both the character and the actor. 

I agree with you completely. Imagine if the incredibly talented Lena Headey had been allowed to play Cersei Lannister as we saw her in what is probably the best episode in the series, "Blackwater" (gee, I wonder who wrote that?). As with the vast majority of the accomplished actors who were on the show, her role was a complete waste of her talent.

 

However, given how D&D have repeatedly proven themselves to be utterly misogynistic (not to say they're deliberately maliciously sexist, of course, but this pattern cannot be denied), it is not inconceivable that they are unable to separate the actress and character when it comes to villainous female characters, and projected that flaw onto the viewers.

To be fair for them, this might not have been a stretch, since the general vilification of female characters is very common. Refer to Skyler White from Breaking Bad: the brilliant Anna Gunn even received death threats due to her immaculate portrayal of the character. Or, for that matter, to A Song of Ice and Fire: many female characters are judged harshly and unfairly, and often nonsensically; while many male characters who have done much worse, generally for much less compelling reasons, are much likelier to be lauded. Even show!Cersei from Seasons 3 to 5 and in most of Season 6 was considered a villain by most of the audience, due solely to promotional materials and other characters' unfounded remarks, even though she was almost completely innocent and relatable according to the narrative itself.

 

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

UGH, don’t even get me started on Sansa... that Sansa Poole storyline made zero sense. For viewers, but for the characters as well. Littlefinger became dumb as a bag of hammers, Sansa became even stupider, marrying into the family that slaughtered hers because “revenge!”. And the explanations and justifications, holy smokes, it’s enough to make one barf and barf and barf. 

Brienne going around Moat Cailin made more sense than Littlefinger's nonsensical plan or Sansa's inability to ask the most basic questions about his so-called marriage proposal.

The absurdity of marrying one's enemies doesn't even get into the fact that Sansa marrying Ramsay would provide the Boltons -- again, her enemies -- legitimacy along with a legal claim to Winterfell, or in other words, cementing their victory as absolute. Then again, on Game of Thrones, kinslaying your lover's brother and nephew is a surefire way to avenge him, so what do we know?

 

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

And viewers/fans are not w/o blame. People were actually claiming Sansa Poole was a good decision, since no one cared for Jeyne Poole, and having Sansa be Ramsay’s victim made people “care” more. What the actual fuck. 

My goodness. How is it possible to completely miss the entire point of Jeyne Poole's story, and to utterly fail to recognize the messages Mr. Martin was attempting to convey in his decision to include it?

[Le Cygne]

15 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

UGH, don’t even get me started on Sansa... that Sansa Poole storyline made zero sense. For viewers, but for the characters as well. Littlefinger became dumb as a bag of hammers, Sansa became even stupider, marrying into the family that slaughtered hers because “revenge!”. And the explanations and justifications, holy smokes, it’s enough to make one barf and barf and barf.

And viewers/fans are not w/o blame. People were actually claiming Sansa Poole was a good decision, since no one cared for Jeyne Poole, and having Sansa be Ramsay’s victim made people “care” more. What the actual fuck. 

Obvious lying was rampant. We saw the Sansa hate go on for years because she didn't "appreciate" Tyrion. And they played right into it, even had her honor him when they did this to her.

Benioff, Weiss, and Cogman had already made her grovel to Tyrion, but there was nothing she could have done to please them once she rejected him. She was doomed with them telling the story.

The most obvious lie of all is that the showrunners didn't care what anyone was saying, when it was clear that's what they used to justify the changes. And they ripped off stupid memes, movies, etc.

The only if we swap people in will people care is a lie to cover for their sheer laziness and inability to write. And they could have just cut this part of the story, it made no sense at all the way they did it.

And they were very selective about who they swapped. Why not swap Arya in for fake Arya? Arya had nothing to do for a long time, and they made up stupid stuff instead. But no, they liked Arya.

In the books, Jon gave up his life for Arya. She's his special sister on the show, too, they said this! In the end, he caresses her face, says come see me, bawls... But instead they had him die for Olly.

Littlefinger actually played the Game of Thrones and they had decided the entire saga was all about whose butt is on the throne. So why cut his political arc off to have him be master of the pointless cat fight?

There's no logical justification for the choices they made. It was all based on their own petty likes and dislikes, not what was best for the story. And then they lied about it.

[kissdbyfire]

@Many-Faced Votary, I’m not sure if all the nicknames are on this post, but they should be there somewhere. At any rate, if you haven’t seen the Carols, you definitely should, it’s priceless and spot on. 

2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

There's no logical justification for the choices they made. It was all based on their own petty likes and dislikes, not what was best for the story. And then they lied about it.

Very true. As to what’s best for the story... I mean, what story? Did they ever cared for the actual story? I know hindsight is 20/20, but I don’t think they ever did. What a waste. 

[SeanF]

What frustrates me in the end is the sheer wasted potential, with so much money, so many good actors, and such commitment from all the people working on it.

Right up to the end, a lot of the scenes were really quite amazing (and the music was great) - had they only remembered to tell a story and provide dialogue.

The sack and burning of Kings Landing would have been outstanding - had there only been a credible reason for it.  And, it would have been so easy to supply that credible reason.  Daenerys might have accepted the surrender, only for someone to let off a crossbow, or bolt, accidentally or on purpose, which injures her or Drogon, leading her to conclude it's just another betrayal;  or she burns the Red Keep, which triggers off wildfire across the capital;  or (the one I'd favour) Cersei keeps her soldiers inside the city, and both sides get bogged down in terrible street fighting, leading Daenerys to conclude that the only way to win is to unleash dragon fire on soldiers and civilians alike.  That would keep the decision to kill thousands of civilians a deliberate and conscious one on her part, but provide a militarily sound reason for it (People are then free to argue over the morality of it).

[The Dragon Demands]

yeah

[The Dragon Demands]

yeah

[SeanF]

38 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Yeah....I mean I didn't watch Dexter, and fans hate the final season, but it didn't "invalidate" the prior seasons.  

What we're dealing with here of course is what TVTropes calls "The Chris Carter Effect" - after X-Files creator Chris Carter.  If a showrunner is making up the CORE storyline as he goes along, gradually teasing it out, fans will desperately try to believe in it and search for clues....only to eventually realize that even the writers themselves didn't know the answers to the core plot mysteries, none of this was going anywhere or had higher meaning, and turn on it.

This is distinct from "episodic" seasons that might get worse over time - i.e. Doctor Who had more or less self-contained seasons for many years, and a new season might be bad, but there wasn't a "core story mystery" to ruin - not on the scale of the X-Files.  Similarly, a lot of shows got bad over time and eventually got canceled, but it doesn't invalidate the prior seasons === when the Chris Carter effect fails, it retroactively reveals just how much of what made the "mystery element" of "where is this going?" in early seasons doesn't matter.

The 2000's had this trope play out hard.  Lost is the most infamous show that did this though arguably I'd say not the worst example (there was always a "magic is mysterious" aspect to the show).   Battlestar Galactica then played this trope VERY hard, to the point that yes it diminishes prior seasons (the core Cylon mystery elements of Head-Six from Season One....meant nothing).  Then came "Heroes" - why are there superheroes? What's going on with the eclipse? They were making it up as they went along.

Heroes also got hit by the writers' strike, so it actually DID fail and get canceled. 

BSG also had a bad ending - directly criticized by GRRM! - but it had the *appearance* of being...."a TV show" even in its final season.  Casual viewers who watch on a soap opera level could follow it.

But GoT Season 8...even relative to like, Season 5...even Season 7 really....felt visually half-finished.  Just in terms of pacing, dialogue, action scenes, whatever.

….a major point I've been trying to make in tandem with "they just write the actors" is "D&D are impulsive buffoons who will keep overstuffing seasons, even after their department heads beg them that they don't have time to do all that well" - rushed fight scenes in Dorne Season 5, plotting problems on Battle of the Bastards in season 6 - all stemming from this child-like inability to handle basic logistics.  Much like Book-Cersei buying a new fleet she can't afford with borrowed money.

Oh god it was glorious though - the first two season 8 episodes were presentable, because they were written by other people.  Not "good" but sort of season 7 level stuff.  And the media was loudly praising the show - do you seriously remember how much praise they got for episode 8.2? Which Cogman wrote?  I mean, STEPHEN KING was praising the show after 8.2

The poetic justice of then going into "Benioff Mode" starting with episode 8.3 "the Long Night" -- it must have been like slamming into a wall for all the shownly fans.  I mean, WE knew it was bad since Season 5....but just imagine that....in ONE night, ONE episode....all the years of lies and Denial just...blowing up in their faces.

I'd compare it to....if any of you have read Max Brooks's "World War Z", a big reason the zombie pandemic spreads across the entire world is that everyone was in utter denial about it.  And at various points, different characters in it describe what it was like seeing an actual zombie for the first time - this moment of utter shock, not just at their mere presence....but that the months' worth of lies and denial exploded in mere seconds.  "All the lies fell away" in one instant.  (if you've read this book you'll get the full impact of what I mean)

…..I mean the Long Night episode was bad overall, not just Arya killing the Night King, and we shouldn't forget that - but things were moving so fast I think a lot of viewers kept hoping "something really great is about to happen to make all this worth it, and it was a double-blow of:  1 - Arya killing the Night King, and in one instant, one scene, 8 years of buildup for Jon and Daenerys are gone, 2 - the end credits rolling, the white walkers are defeated, no, there is no false hope to hold out anymore that "it will all be worth it next time".  

Have you seen the day-after reactions by a lot of people on YouTube?  Not a week later, I mean mere hours later - just how utterly stunned they were.  Like a cult member finally seeing The Leader for what they truly are.

Then in episode 4, they tried to cram half a season's worth of material into one episode.

The conflict between Daenerys and the Starks, over Northern independence, could have been made interesting, and both sides portrayed sympathetically, had it played out over several episodes, with negotiations being tried and breaking down.  As it was, they tried to show Daenerys simultaneously cracking up under pressure, and being the victim of treachery, and the traitors being justified, and it did not work.

[Nowy Tends]

On 1/31/2020 at 5:01 PM, Lord Varys said:

 If they had cast Anthony Hopkins for, say, Doran Martell or Pycelle they would have him do some Hannibal-Lecter-like stuff - or other things they knew or liked him doing in some of the great movies he was in.

That's such a good point; hats off!

Let's play a game:

If they had cast Sean Connery

for, say, the Blackfish or Robett Glover

 they would have him do some James Bond-like stuff - or other things they knew or liked him doing in some of the great movies he was in.

[Minsc]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

 Daenerys might have accepted the surrender, only for someone to let off a crossbow, or bolt, accidentally or on purpose, which injures her or Drogon, leading her to conclude it's just another betrayal;

Honestly, that is when Rhaegal should have been killed.  Not him getting magically sniped by Euron only for in the next episode none of the scorpions are able to hit anything. 

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

If I could add this quote to an official wiki page about the TV show, I would.  This sums up what I've been trying to say since late 2016 when I actually sat down to watch all the Blu-ray commentaries, which no one was reporting on (all it took was watching the Season 5 set, actually, to see these men for what they really are).

Just use it in one of your mad rants ;-).

Another case we this is apparently very obvious is the whole 'acting' of Aidan Gillen on the show. Has anybody ever watched the show where he played some kind of creep? I think this was The Wire.

It might make sense to compare such things were they are not completely obvious - like there are with Indira Varma who pretty much behaves exactly like Niobe from Rome once they are writing scenes explicitly for Varma (which, if I remember correctly, was not yet clear when they wrote her part for season 4).