Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

[Angel Eyes]

21 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

I keep coming back to this:  Why did so many suddenly get angry about Season 8, but not earlier stuff like the Sansa rape? Starting with Season 5?  "Denial" seems too simplistic; well, not just "watching with cautious optimism" types, I'm talking the people who were outright "hyped" for Season 8, despite everything, and then hated it....but not Season 5 onwards.

I ran into a cashier girl the other day at a comic book store, who noticed I was buying the Clash of Kings comic, and asked "so what did you think of the ending?".....I said "it was bad, but why was anyone surprised? It was awful since season 5.  Where were all these season 8 critics when the invented Sansa rape happened?"

She looked confused, and after a round of explanation, it turns out she was STILL totally unaware that the Sansa rape wasn't in the books, and isn't what "really" happens.  After all this time.  

I think one of the reasons the Sansa rape annoys me the most is that it's the one they tried to gaslight us on most of all:  "this makes sense! this makes sense!".....while, bizarrely, mounting no defense for say, TV-Dorne….or other blatantly non-books stuff....and people would just....forget about it.

Might just be because it's for core characters (a TV audience wouldn't realistically know who Arianne Martell is), but they pulled that shit on us for years; fundamentally people were willing to accept ruining what they considered "secondary to minor" characters.

But ruining Daenerys, Jon, and Arya?  Season 8 firmly did that, and suddenly no one can think of a defense.  They got what they deserved.

People did get angry back in Season 5 when Sansa was raped, with plenty of articles saying that Game of Thrones went too far and D&D saying they planned it out 3 years previously. I didn't like the circumstances with it: Littlefinger should have known better than to send Sansa into a situation where she would be unable to manage herself, Sansa was wrong to agree to the whole plan (could she have said "No"?). I was like "well... shit". And when it came down to the actual scene, while I applaud them not showing the actual rape, they also messed it up by focusing on Theon's suffering in the scene, essentially molding Sansa into a plot device for Theon's story.

[The Dragon Demands]

So somehow people thought they could still make a "good" or "presentable" ending....in spite of these..."clear warning signs"?

[Angel Eyes]

On 2/12/2020 at 6:21 PM, The Dragon Demands said:

So somehow people thought they could still make a "good" or "presentable" ending....in spite of these..."clear warning signs"?

Perhaps we (I know that I) underestimated how bad the show could end.

[The Dragon Demands]

yeah

[tscchope]

In the books, the rape scenes are with a character Jeyne Poole who is pretending to be Arya Stark. Benioff and Weiss could have said, "This is a character we're not using, so it's an Arya storyline. We're not going to get into the Maisie is underage/looks underage, so we're giving it to Sophie and her Sansa character. It's a chance for Sophie to get her acting chops around something she wouldn't otherwise get to do (ie award baiting). Just remember that it's not really Sansa marrying and getting raped by Ramsay Bolton or feeding him to his own hounds, it's Arya. Of course, Rickon isn't there in the books to be Ramsay's plaything - that's Theon, whom Ramsay thinks is named Reek. Not being in a bad place is a payoff for the greensight Rickon's born with. 

This then becomes an adaptation that has a rationale. There are some really dark places in the book series. This is one of them.

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, tscchope said:

In the books, the rape scenes are with a character Jeyne Poole who is pretending to be Arya Stark. Benioff and Weiss could have said, "This is a character we're not using, so it's an Arya storyline. We're not going to get into the Maisie is underage/looks underage, so we're giving it to Sophie and her Sansa character. It's a chance for Sophie to get her acting chops around something she wouldn't otherwise get to do (ie award baiting). Just remember that it's not really Sansa marrying and getting raped by Ramsay Bolton or feeding him to his own hounds, it's Arya. Of course, Rickon isn't there in the books to be Ramsay's plaything - that's Theon, whom Ramsay thinks is named Reek. Not being in a bad place is a payoff for the greensight Rickon's born with. 

This then becomes an adaptation that has a rationale. There are some really dark places in the book series. This is one of them.

I’m sorry... WHAT?

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, tscchope said:

English comprehension not your strong point?

No, I’m dumb as a bag of hammers. Please do elaborate on your previous post so that someone as dim as myself will be able to comprehend some of your infinite wisdom. 

[Angel Eyes]

On 2/12/2020 at 9:19 PM, The Dragon Demands said:

I'm not trying to attack you over that sorry 

 

But I was just stunned at this girl running the cashier at this comic book store; I'm not surprised she didn't read the books, but in the five years almost since the Sansa rape controversy, which was all over the media, she still didn't know it wasn't even in the books?  Is that what was left after book fans abandoned the show?  The hype fans and dregs.

It's alright.

But in the case of Sansa, there have been problems writing her from the beginning, even with GRRM. To many, the beating she takes in King's Landing and character development about looking past appearances is no excuse for her behavior in the first book/season. I wonder if GRRM underestimated how much Sansa's disliked among non-villainous characters.

The other problem with Sansa's Season 5 storyline is that it's essentially a rehashing of Seasons 1-4: She is betrothed to a bastard, bastard abuses her, escapes with the help of a fool. I could go on and on about the problems with her in Seasons 7 and 8.

 

[Nowy Tends]

5 hours ago, tscchope said:

English comprehension not your strong point?

English writing obviously not your strong point. Your post is incomprehensible.

<quote> Of course, Rickon isn't there in the books to be Ramsay's plaything - that's Theon, whom Ramsay thinks is named Reek </quote>

WTF???

[divica]

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

It's alright.

But in the case of Sansa, there have been problems writing her from the beginning, even with GRRM. To many, the beating she takes in King's Landing and character development about looking past appearances is no excuse for her behavior in the first book/season. I wonder if GRRM underestimated how much Sansa's disliked among non-villainous characters.

The other problem with Sansa's Season 5 storyline is that it's essentially a rehashing of Seasons 1-4: She is betrothed to a bastard, bastard abuses her, escapes with the help of a fool. I could go on and on about the problems with her in Seasons 7 and 8.

 

I think her s5 arc could have worked if it was better thought.

Like having littlefinger give her to the boltons on porpose so that he can tell cersi that the boltons have her and get cersi's approval to invade the north and obtain more power for himself... 

They should have had sweetronin killed and put Harry in control of the vale alongside littlefinger. Then when Sansa is rescued her story could be about her and Harry marrying and getting control of the vale and joining it to the north and getting rid of LF... 

 

Sansa's problem is that she lost her story in s5 and from there she kind of became a parasite that feeds of other characters stories with her actions making very little sense. But that is also one of the biggest differences between D&D and grrm. The books shine when pov characters get together while after s4/5 the series sucks when pov characters get together. They can t write a complex story... 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, tscchope said:

Ramsay thinks Theon is Reek, who is actually dead - in the books

Rickon isn't there - Rickon is not in Winterfell and not there to be used as Ramsay plaything ie tortured to death. In the books Rickon got out of Winterfell..

That's what my sentence means. It wasn't incomprehensible at all. And don't try to bait me by using capitals.

It is clear that Benioff and Weiss were setting the stage to make Sansa ruler of the North, by killing off Rickon, who would have a better claim just by by being male. Of course, Bran had a better claim, but Benioff and Weiss kinda forgot that, too.

@Kissedbyfire I'm sorry to read that you're too dim to understand my post. I'm not dumb enough to get dragged into a flame war. Just this once, I'll give you the simple version. I do advise you to get a good dictionary, for future use..

Jeyne Poole is not in the TV show. She is pretending to be Arya, in the books. That makes it an Arya storyline. With me so far? Book Arya is 14, TV Arya 16 -that makes the characters underage for use in any sex scene. Maisie's 17(?) at time of filming, but looks younger. Book Arya is telling one of the Senior Faceless Men that she belongs and is heartless. Since it has not been confirmed that Faceless men can't use the faces of living relatives that's what I am going with to make it a Sansa storyline .I assumed you knew the books and what Faceless Men can do.

I am saying that Benioff and Weiss, instead of the garbage they came up, with could have said this is Arya wearing Sansa's face. That's what my post did say. I just assumed you had knowledge you obviously don't have.

I do hope I have come across as suitably patronising.

 

Just  a word of friendly advice.  If you continue in that vein, the moderators will ban you.

[Mystical]

On 2/13/2020 at 12:21 AM, The Dragon Demands said:

So somehow people thought they could still make a "good" or "presentable" ending....in spite of these..."clear warning signs"?

A lot, not all of it, has to do with character preference. To give you an example, I also discussed this show in another forum dominated by Jon, Dany and Jonerys fans. Talking at length about about the problems with D&D's writing. They wouldn't hear it. To them the blatant sexism, racism, homophobia etc. was non-existent. The only problem they had in S7 for example was mostly anything not related to J,D or J/D. I remember having a discussion about the idiocy of Dany burning the food during the loot train attack. I even pointed out that Dany, in that same episode, mentioned that she didn't know how to feed her people. It fell on deaf ears, even worse was people bending over backwards to excuse it and making one nonsensical comment after the other.

These same people were the loudest and most vocal anti-S8 people. Suddenly there are problems such as bad writing and character assassination and sexism. Gee I wonder why. I'm sure it had nothing to do with Dany, Jon and Jonerys crashing and burning horribly.

Rarely was the media brave enough to criticize because of how big GoT was, no one wanted to loose their exclusive all-access pass. Even the most vocal anti-S5 media (due to the Sansa rape, Dorne etc.) or general GoT critical media was fringe media, not main media. When it comes to viewers, it largely depended on their fave characters or ship coming out on top (the J,D and J/D example above is just one experience I had). When that wasn't the case anymore though, see S8, suddenly they joined the bandwagon that other people had been on for years.

[SeanF]

14 minutes ago, Mystical said:

A lot, not all of it, has to do with character preference. To give you an example, I also discussed this show in another forum dominated by Jon, Dany and Jonerys fans. Talking at length about about the problems with D&D's writing. They wouldn't hear it. To them the blatant sexism, racism, homophobia etc. was non-existent. The only problem they had in S7 for example was mostly anything not related to J,D or J/D. I remember having a discussion about the idiocy of Dany burning the food during the loot train attack. I even pointed out that Dany, in that same episode, mentioned that she didn't know how to feed her people. It fell on deaf ears, even worse was people bending over backwards to excuse it and making one nonsensical comment after the other.

These same people were the loudest and most vocal anti-S8 people. Suddenly there are problems such as bad writing and character assassination and sexism. Gee I wonder why. I'm sure it had nothing to do with Dany, Jon and Jonerys crashing and burning horribly.

Rarely was the media brave enough to criticize because of how big GoT was, no one wanted to loose their exclusive all-access pass. Even the most vocal anti-S5 media (due to the Sansa rape, Dorne etc.) or general GoT critical media was fringe media, not main media. When it comes to viewers, it largely depended on their fave characters or ship coming out on top (the J,D and J/D example above is just one experience I had). When that wasn't the case anymore though, see S8, suddenly they joined the bandwagon that other people had been on for years.

You didn't think "You need the bad pussy" or "I'm going to f*ck the tits off this one " were good writing then?

[The Dragon Demands]

yeah

[The Dragon Demands]

yeah

[Nowy Tends]

14 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Ramsay doesn’t “think” he’s Reek, he made him into his “new” Reek.

Exactly.

And Jeyne Poole is not "pretending" to be Arya Stark, she's forced to corroborate the Lannister/Baelish subterfuge.

 

[Mystical]

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

You didn't think "You need the bad pussy" or "I'm going to f*ck the tits off this one " were good writing then?

Hell yes that was good writing. Those lines were genius. As if they came right out of the aSoIaF books.

[Angel Eyes]

6 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Well, then we’ll just have to break them of that.  
 

On a scale of years.

Well, it seems that a lot of the problems that occurred in later seasons appeared in early ones, they just got exaggerated over the course of the show's run, ie Daenerys' wedding night with Khal Drogo. This is something from the TV tropes page on Franchise Original Sin for Game of Thrones; yes it's enough to have a full page.

• The more lenient critics of Season 7-8 note that many of its controversial moments (the White Walkers being abruptly dealt with, Jamie returning to Cersei in spite of his Character Development, Daenerys' Face–Heel Turn, etc.) actually fit the series being a Genre Deconstruction, subverting audience expectations. The difference was then it had the intricate writing to make those developments come of as logical, realistic outcomes that the characters made, while here it came off as contrived (discarding previous characterization) in order to force the outcome the writers wanted. The reason instances like Ned Stark's death or the Red Wedding were unexpected was that it didn't seem likely that the series would kill off main characters in such a fashion, even though it made perfect sense in-universe and served a narrative payoff as the consequences for their actions. On the other hand, most of the plot twists in the seventh and eighth season were unexpected because they were laughably implausible, inconsistent, or had no narrative force behind them. An example of the twists of this is Battle of the Bastards in season 6 and the Battle for Winterfell in season 8, where ultimately the Big Bad of the battle is not beaten by Jon Snow as viewers expected but by someone else. In the case of the former, however, it was Sansa getting her revenge on Ramsay in a satisfying conclusion after all the hardships he did to her, and she killed him in a manner that made sense for the setup and her character (and while Jon didn't kill Ramsay, he did get to defeat him). The latter, however, has Arya killing the Night King on very flimsy foreshadowing and in a fairly absurd fashion. This was despite Jon and the Night King being set up as almost rivals since Season 5, alongside it being one of the main motivations of Jon for years of his life, while Arya had pretty much nothing connecting her to the Night King aside from her being good at killing things and him needing to be killed. Meanwhile, while Jon did get some closure with Ramsay, his contribution to the fight with the Night King was memetically summarized as "screaming at a dragon," which didn't help in a season that was already infamous for not giving him a lot to do.

[sweetsunray]

On 1/28/2020 at 5:40 PM, Nowy Tends said:

Agreed. Example: The Witcher, highly praised by so many people when it's average at best…

Hehe, I watched the Witcher and refer to it as "High cost, pretty looking crap-fantasy". I haven't read the books, but from what I gather from reading reviews and plot of the books, I gather it's the type of fantasy that I have been avoiding since the millenium, with a nod at Conan which I'm pretty certain is great writing in comparison.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Hehe, I watched the Witcher and refer to it as "High cost, pretty looking crap-fantasy". I haven't read the books, but from what I gather from reading reviews and plot of the books, I gather it's the type of fantasy that I have been avoiding since the millenium, with a nod at Conan which I'm pretty certain is great writing in comparison.

Well, it's not great literature, but it is good fun.