Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

[Le Cygne]

The wildly controversial “Game of Thrones” series finale will be celebrating its one-year anniversary in two months (the episode’s airdate was May 19, 2019), and with some distance comes some brutal honesty from cast member Emilia Clarke... [Her] character dies after being stabbed by Jon Snow. Clarke tells The Times, “Yeah, I felt for her. I really felt for her. And yeah, was I annoyed that Jon Snow didn’t have to deal with something? He got away with murder — literally.”...

Clarke suggests the show could have handled its final season better if it ran for more than just six episodes, saying, “We could have spun it out for a little longer.”

One part of the final season that Clarke did not like was that it was nothing but action set pieces and there was no room for character-driven dialogue moments. The actress said she would have liked more dialogue scenes, an opinion she first shared with Entertainment Weekly shortly after the series finale aired. Clarke said at the time she wished the show gave her more dialogue scenes with co-star Lena Headey, who played Cersei Lannister.

‘It was all about the set pieces,” Clarke tells The Times about the final season.

https://www.indiewire.com/2020/03/emilia-clarke-game-of-thrones-ending-annoyed-1202218667/

[SeanF]

4 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

The wildly controversial “Game of Thrones” series finale will be celebrating its one-year anniversary in two months (the episode’s airdate was May 19, 2019), and with some distance comes some brutal honesty from cast member Emilia Clarke... [Her] character dies after being stabbed by Jon Snow. Clarke tells The Times, “Yeah, I felt for her. I really felt for her. And yeah, was I annoyed that Jon Snow didn’t have to deal with something? He got away with murder — literally.”...

Clarke suggests the show could have handled its final season better if it ran for more than just six episodes, saying, “We could have spun it out for a little longer.”

One part of the final season that Clarke did not like was that it was nothing but action set pieces and there was no room for character-driven dialogue moments. The actress said she would have liked more dialogue scenes, an opinion she first shared with Entertainment Weekly shortly after the series finale aired. Clarke said at the time she wished the show gave her more dialogue scenes with co-star Lena Headey, who played Cersei Lannister.

‘It was all about the set pieces,” Clarke tells The Times about the final season.

https://www.indiewire.com/2020/03/emilia-clarke-game-of-thrones-ending-annoyed-1202218667/

Compare with Better Call Saul which we're discussing on the other thread.

Kim's dark turn is not something the producers have sprung on us for the sake of shock. It's been building for a long time.  Sure, the show runners had shown Dany increasingly drinking the kool aid, but that's a still a very far cry from being a mass murderer of innocents.

D & D could not decide if Daenerys was tragic heroine or villain, because they did not understand that those two character arcs are quite different.

[Le Cygne]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

Compare with Better Call Saul which we're discussing on the other thread.

Kim's dark turn is not something the producers have sprung on us for the sake of shock. It's been building for a long time.  Sure, the show runners had shown Dany increasingly drinking the kool aid, but that's a still a very far cry from being a mass murderer of innocents.

D & D could not decide if Daenerys was tragic heroine or villain, because they did not understand that those two character arcs are quite different.

Indeed, and on Better Call Saul, it's not presented as she's got a dark side, therefore she is evil, which is just asinine. On BCS, it's giving the character depth, helping us understand her.

On GoT, a series long sympathetic character suddenly becomes the big bad, while the worst villains get all the sympathy in the end, along with her murderer and other assorted assholes.

[SeanF]

27 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Indeed, and on Better Call Saul, it's not presented as she's got a dark side, therefore she is evil, which is just asinine. On BCS, it's giving the character depth, helping us understand her.

On GoT, a series long sympathetic character suddenly becomes the big bad, while the worst villains get all the sympathy in the end, along with her murderer and other assorted assholes.

Of the six main protagonists in ASOIAF, every one has a dark side, and every one has done morally questionable things.  Tyrion is the worst (all he shares with his counterpart in the show is is his name), and the closest to being evil.  Dany, Bran, Sansa, Arya, and Jon can't be considered anywhere near evil, at this point, but one can see how their stories will get darker, and any one of their stories could end in their moral downfall.  Dany might become brutalised by war and corrupted by ambition;  Bran may start taking control of peoples' minds and using them ruthlessly;  Sansa might knowingly and willingly become Littlefinger's partner in crime;  Arya might become a soulless murderer for hire;  Jon might take terrible revenge when he is revived.  But, I'd expect any such character arcs to be earned, rather than a surprise, and to evoke pity and sadness in the reader.

Whereas, the final episodes of the show largely provoked disgust and disbelief among viewers. There was no tragedy, because the downfall of a tragic hero ought to provoke sympathy and sadness, a feeling of "there but for the Grace of God go I". The downfall of a villain will either provoke satisfaction, or if the villain has a sympathetic side, some sadness, mixed with an acknowledgement that it was right that it happened.

This is all stuff I learned at secondary school, but D & D never did, it seems. 

[Angel Eyes]

On 3/18/2020 at 8:13 PM, Le Cygne said:

The wildly controversial “Game of Thrones” series finale will be celebrating its one-year anniversary in two months (the episode’s airdate was May 19, 2019), and with some distance comes some brutal honesty from cast member Emilia Clarke... [Her] character dies after being stabbed by Jon Snow. Clarke tells The Times, “Yeah, I felt for her. I really felt for her. And yeah, was I annoyed that Jon Snow didn’t have to deal with something? He got away with murder — literally.”...

Clarke suggests the show could have handled its final season better if it ran for more than just six episodes, saying, “We could have spun it out for a little longer.”

One part of the final season that Clarke did not like was that it was nothing but action set pieces and there was no room for character-driven dialogue moments. The actress said she would have liked more dialogue scenes, an opinion she first shared with Entertainment Weekly shortly after the series finale aired. Clarke said at the time she wished the show gave her more dialogue scenes with co-star Lena Headey, who played Cersei Lannister.

‘It was all about the set pieces,” Clarke tells The Times about the final season.

https://www.indiewire.com/2020/03/emilia-clarke-game-of-thrones-ending-annoyed-1202218667/

Is it telling that the more established actors are more publicly critical of the show and the younger ones lash back at the critics and fans’ reviews? On the one hand,  Lena Headey was disappointed that Cersei went out with a whimper, Peter Dinklage publicly derided the decision to put all the civilians in the crypts, and Emilia Clarke... see the quoted post. On the other hand, Sophie Turner, Isaac Hempstead-Wright, and Jacob Anderson, who are younger and less established outside of the show, are the main voices feeling that the fans were dismissing their hard work.

[The Bard of Banefort]

On 3/20/2020 at 12:15 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Is it telling that the more established actors are more publicly critical of the show and the younger ones lash back at the critics and fans’ reviews? On the one hand,  Lena Headey was disappointed that Cersei went out with a whimper, Peter Dinklage publicly derided the decision to put all the civilians in the crypts, and Emilia Clarke... see the quoted post. On the other hand, Sophie Turner, Isaac Hempstead-Wright, and Jacob Anderson, who are younger and less established outside of the show, are the main voices feeling that the fans were dismissing their hard work.

I get the impression that both Sophie and Emilia are good friends with D&D and don't want to be publicly critical of them (same with Nikolaj). One difference I'm noticing with Emilia is that she used to be very defensive of the nudity in GOT, but lately she's been more critical of it, talking about how the directors in earlier seasons would try to guilt her into showing more skin. She echoes that a bit in her comments about how GOT was always about the set pieces/spectacle.

Jon technically was punished for killing Dany, since he had to renounce his crown, leave his family, and go back to the Wall. Tyrion becoming the new Hand, however, was total bullshit. The murder was his idea; he should have been sent to the Wall alongside Jon.

[The Bard of Banefort]

The more I think about it, the more I reckon that I would have been less bothered by seasons 5-8 if seasons 1-4 weren't so faithful to the themes and mythology of the books. It wouldn't have held a candle to the books, but it would have been another schlocky adaptation like so many others before it. (I haven't watched The Witcher yet, but from what I've heard it's very schlocky, and people love that about it). The first four seasons were very loyal to the rules of the worldbuilding: traveling takes several episodes, oaths matter, rank matters, people don't forget when someone kills one of their relatives, dues ex-machinas are cop-outs. The complete dissolution of logic is what really ruined the show for me (although the dialogue and complete misunderstanding of women didn't help). If it had been that way from the beginning though, it would have still been a poor adaptation, but I could have just enjoyed it as shlock. 

[SeanF]

5 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I get the impression that both Sophie and Emilia are good friends with D&D and don't want to be publicly critical of them (same with Nikolaj). One difference I'm noticing with Emilia is that she used to be very defensive of the nudity in GOT, but lately she's been more critical of it, talking about how the directors in earlier seasons would try to guilt her into showing more skin. She echoes that a bit in her comments about how GOT was always about the set pieces/spectacle.

Jon technically was punished for killing Dany, since he had to renounce his crown, leave his family, and go back to the Wall. Tyrion becoming the new Hand, however, was total bullshit. The murder was his idea; he should have been sent to the Wall alongside Jon.

 

5 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I get the impression that both Sophie and Emilia are good friends with D&D and don't want to be publicly critical of them (same with Nikolaj). One difference I'm noticing with Emilia is that she used to be very defensive of the nudity in GOT, but lately she's been more critical of it, talking about how the directors in earlier seasons would try to guilt her into showing more skin. She echoes that a bit in her comments about how GOT was always about the set pieces/spectacle.

Jon technically was punished for killing Dany, since he had to renounce his crown, leave his family, and go back to the Wall. Tyrion becoming the new Hand, however, was total bullshit. The murder was his idea; he should have been sent to the Wall alongside Jon.

 

5 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I get the impression that both Sophie and Emilia are good friends with D&D and don't want to be publicly critical of them (same with Nikolaj). One difference I'm noticing with Emilia is that she used to be very defensive of the nudity in GOT, but lately she's been more critical of it, talking about how the directors in earlier seasons would try to guilt her into showing more skin. She echoes that a bit in her comments about how GOT was always about the set pieces/spectacle.

Jon technically was punished for killing Dany, since he had to renounce his crown, leave his family, and go back to the Wall. Tyrion becoming the new Hand, however, was total bullshit. The murder was his idea; he should have been sent to the Wall alongside Jon.

The show tried to sell what could only be a wretched ending for Jon as a happy ending.  Kinslayers and oathbreakers are not well regarded in this world. And how it must hurt to learn that Bran and Sansa mattered far more more to you, than you ever did to them.  Despite everything, you were always the bastard, after all.

And, the one sibling who did love you will never see you again.

As Screwtape put it:-

"To take a man's soul and give him nothing in return, that is what truly gladdens the heart of Our Father Below."

Jon sacrificed everything for nothing.

Tyriln, Sansa, Bran, Sam, and Bron all received rewards they did not deserve.  Everyone who did the heavy lifting against Cersei or the White Walkers finished up dead or exiled.

 

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

 

 

The show tried to sell what could only be a wretched ending for Jon as a happy ending.  Kinslayers and oathbreakers are not well regarded in this world. And how it must hurt to learn that Bran and Sansa mattered far more more to you, than you ever did to them.  Despite everything, you were always the bastard, after all.

And, the one sibling who did love you will never see you again.

As Screwtape put it:-

"To take a man's soul and give him nothing in return, that is what truly gladdens the heart of Our Father Below."

Jon sacrificed everything for nothing.

Tyriln, Sansa, Bran, Sam, and Bron all received rewards they did not deserve.  Everyone who did the heavy lifting against Cersei or the White Walkers finished up dead or exiled.

 

 

Tyrion tells Jon that Sansa tried to convince Bran to pardon Jon after she declared the North was independent, which would imply that she expected Jon to remain the king. Her telling Tyrion about Jon's heritage was prefaced by her tearfully asking, "What if there's someone else?" So she had been scheming to put Jon on the Iron Throne before that. I don't think she ever intentionally tried to hurt him.

[SeanF]

5 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Tyrion tells Jon that Sansa tried to convince Bran to pardon Jon after she declared the North was independent, which would imply that she expected Jon to remain the king. Her telling Tyrion about Jon's heritage was prefaced by her tearfully asking, "What if there's someone else?" So she had been scheming to put Jon on the Iron Throne before that. I don't think she ever intentionally tried to hurt him.

By trying to force a succession conflict between Jon and Daenerys (for a job that Jon did not want) she was putting Jon's life in danger, as well as Daenerys'.   Of the two, she would obviously want Daenerys to be the one who was killed, but it could have easily gone the other way.

[Angel Eyes]

8 hours ago, SeanF said:

 

Jon sacrificed everything for nothing.

Tyriln, Sansa, Bran, Sam, and Bron all received rewards they did not deserve.  Everyone who did the heavy lifting against Cersei or the White Walkers finished up dead or exiled.

 

 

I’m confused as to why Sam chose to become a Maester again, given how he publicly denounced the Maesters in Season 7. 

As for Tyrion, I wonder if that’s supposed to be a punishment for him given that he doesn’t want the job yet he’s being pressed into it.

[The Bard of Banefort]

4 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

As for Tyrion, I wonder if that’s supposed to be a punishment for him given that he doesn’t want the job yet he’s being pressed into it.

Bran claims that it is, but that has to be the softest punishment imaginable. Tyrion was given a position of power, wealth, and prestige, which were all things he's always wanted (along with, presumably, Casterly Rock). Tyrion failed at everything for three seasons straight, and was constantly rewarded for it. 

[SeanF]

14 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Bran claims that it is, but that has to be the softest punishment imaginable. Tyrion was given a position of power, wealth, and prestige, which were all things he's always wanted (along with, presumably, Casterly Rock). Tyrion failed at everything for three seasons straight, and was constantly rewarded for it. 

That's because he was D & D's self-insert.  

After his first failure, Daenerys should have just nailed his head to her battle standard.

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

That's because he was D & D's self-insert.  

After his first failure, Daenerys should have just nailed his head to her battle standard.

Always wondered how that would work from a physics standpoint, especially in J R.R. Tolkien's books where Sauron's forces used Celebrimbor as a banner.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Was it ever revealed what the third "holy shit" moment was? I assume that it's Jon killing Dany, but it could also be her blowing up King's Landing. 

[Ghostlydragon]

3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Was it ever revealed what the third "holy shit" moment was? I assume that it's Jon killing Dany, but it could also be her blowing up King's Landing. 

I heard it was Bran becoming king. 

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, Ghostlydragon said:

I heard it was Bran becoming king. 

I heard that too. And since the show is so forgettable, what were the other 2? 

[The Bard of Banefort]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I heard that too. And since the show is so forgettable, what were the other 2? 

1. Stannis burning Shireen

2. Bran mind-splicing Hodor

[kissdbyfire]

10 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

1. Stannis burning Shireen

2. Bran mind-splicing Hodor

Aaaahhhh that's right!

[SeanF]

8 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Always wondered how that would work from a physics standpoint, especially in J R.R. Tolkien's books where Sauron's forces used Celebrimbor as a banner.

 

8 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Always wondered how that would work from a physics standpoint, especially in J R.R. Tolkien's books where Sauron's forces used Celebrimbor as a banner.

A battle standard is usually attached to a pole or spike.  Affix the head to it, and then hammer nails through the neck to keep it in place.