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Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!


The Fattest Leech

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20 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Question for Season 7: Why couldn’t Daenerys just fly up to the Red Keep and intimidate Cersei into surrendering? It’s not unheard of, Visenya did the same thing with Vhaegar in the Vale. Also, they hadn’t started mass-producing ballistas

Because then the story would be over.

Also, isn't Tyrion supposed to be extremely well-read? If he didn't want to kill any civilians, he could have just done what Daemon did in the Dance and lured Cersei's forces out (which is basically what Jaime ended up doing) so that Dany could just swoop into the Red Keep with her three dragons and call it a day.

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2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Question for Season 7: Why couldn’t Daenerys just fly up to the Red Keep and intimidate Cersei into surrendering? It’s not unheard of, Visenya did the same thing with Vhaegar in the Vale. Also, they hadn’t started mass-producing ballistas

Imagine today.  Would any modern commander hesitate to flatten the Red Keep with drones or bombers?

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On 3/26/2020 at 11:23 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Yeah, that's why I tend to think the last season was more accurate than most people want to believe. A lot of it just didn't feel like something D&D would come up with on their own (not unlike Hold the Door). Since they conflated Cersei with fAegon, I tend to think that Aegon will be on the throne when Dany attacks (especially given Harry Strickland's appearance and the random Battle of the Bells reference). It wouldn't be too crazy for Aegon to take Cersei captive upon taking the city, similar to how Alicent Hightower was held prisoner in the Red Keep for years. (I've also been theorizing that maybe the valonqar prophecy is more abstract than we give it credit for. If Tyrion eggs Dany on in bombing the city, then it's possible Cersei could suffocate on the smoke, thus "choking her." But if Jon kills Dany, then I'm all but certain that GRRM won't have Jaime also kill Cersei).

You are giving them too much credit here. The Battle of the Bells reference is a reference to the Battle of the Bells, not something in the future of the books. Just as the Golden Company and Harry Strickland are references to ADwD and not to anything in the future of the story. If there is a guy who is likely not going to play a heroic or important in Aegon's finale it will be Homeless Harry.

After all, they had introduced the Golden Company in talk in earlier seasons, so it was sort of convenient to use them in their Cersei plot.

These people wrote their own 'story', putting bits and pieces from the books into it.

You see this best in season 2 where many elements from ADwD randomly pop up because that was the book they read around that time - think of Arya randomly talking about Lady Dustin or Jeyne Westerling becoming fucking Talisa Maegyr of Volantis (and there being a lot of pointless Volantis talk from Talisa).

There might certainly be some sort of sack or attack on KL - and perhaps the city will even be destroyed - but this might not happen when Dany is in Westeros (since Aegon or Euron both might take the Iron Throne before she even arrives in Westeros).

ASoIaF is not 'A Game of Thrones', and the Iron Throne is not the ultimate price in the books, nor the plot device around which the grand finale is going to be taking place.

In fact, there seems to be simply no time to establish Dany as some kind of evil tyrant - which may have been part of a story where she would have invaded Westeros in the second volume of the original trilogy, also titled 'A Dance with Dragons'. Instead, whatever her story is going to be will culminate in the fight against the Others. And whatever Second Dance of the Dragons there will be before that happens is going to be a story that is not going to paint Aegon and Euron and Cersei and Stannis as people who are better/more positive than Daenerys.

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15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You are giving them too much credit here. The Battle of the Bells reference is a reference to the Battle of the Bells, not something in the future of the books. Just as the Golden Company and Harry Strickland are references to ADwD and not to anything in the future of the story. If there is a guy who is likely not going to play a heroic or important in Aegon's finale it will be Homeless Harry.

After all, they had introduced the Golden Company in talk in earlier seasons, so it was sort of convenient to use them in their Cersei plot.

These people wrote their own 'story', putting bits and pieces from the books into it.

You see this best in season 2 where many elements from ADwD randomly pop up because that was the book they read around that time - think of Arya randomly talking about Lady Dustin or Jeyne Westerling becoming fucking Talisa Maegyr of Volantis (and there being a lot of pointless Volantis talk from Talisa).

There might certainly be some sort of sack or attack on KL - and perhaps the city will even be destroyed - but this might not happen when Dany is in Westeros (since Aegon or Euron both might take the Iron Throne before she even arrives in Westeros).

ASoIaF is not 'A Game of Thrones', and the Iron Throne is not the ultimate price in the books, nor the plot device around which the grand finale is going to be taking place.

In fact, there seems to be simply no time to establish Dany as some kind of evil tyrant - which may have been part of a story where she would have invaded Westeros in the second volume of the original trilogy, also titled 'A Dance with Dragons'. Instead, whatever her story is going to be will culminate in the fight against the Others. And whatever Second Dance of the Dragons there will be before that happens is going to be a story that is not going to paint Aegon and Euron and Cersei and Stannis as people who are better/more positive than Daenerys.

Time is a big sticking point for me. I don't see how they'll have time for Dany and Jon to fall in love, especially given that Jon will be less-than-human now, but at this point it seems inevitable. 

Like I explained in another post, based on their past behavior, I don't think D&D would choose to open themselves up to accusations of sexism by having Dany go postal unless they were trying to stick to the bullet points that GRRM gave them. But we're going to have to wait a while to find out.

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10 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Time is a big sticking point for me. I don't see how they'll have time for Dany and Jon to fall in love, especially given that Jon will be less-than-human now, but at this point it seems inevitable. 

Like I explained in another post, based on their past behavior, I don't think D&D would choose to open themselves up to accusations of sexism by having Dany go postal unless they were trying to stick to the bullet points that GRRM gave them. But we're going to have to wait a while to find out.

They may not fall in love, but simply form an alliance.  Having them fall in love could have been exactly the type of short cut that two hack writers tired of their show would have come up with, instead of doing the plot work to make it a political alliance. They may fall in love in the books that will not be written...but, their book selves are really not each other's type.  Jon likes tomboy, down to earth, no muss no fuss type of women...which the blonde queen with 25,000 titles is surely not.  Khaleesi likes her men hyper masculine and rough and tumble...which Jon doesn't really fit that mold either. 

I find it hard to believe that the ending that GRRM has had in mind for 20 years is among the most cheesy, tropish of all time, that the queen and king come together and fall in love, and then, oops, he has to kill her to save mankind.  He may have faltered in the later books but he is on his worst day better than that. 

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1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

They may not fall in love, but simply form an alliance.  Having them fall in love could have been exactly the type of short cut that two hack writers tired of their show would have come up with, instead of doing the plot work to make it a political alliance. They may fall in love in the books that will not be written...but, their book selves are really not each other's type.  Jon likes tomboy, down to earth, no muss no fuss type of women...which the blonde queen with 25,000 titles is surely not.  Khaleesi likes her men hyper masculine and rough and tumble...which Jon doesn't really fit that mold either. 

I find it hard to believe that the ending that GRRM has had in mind for 20 years is among the most cheesy, tropish of all time, that the queen and king come together and fall in love, and then, oops, he has to kill her to save mankind.  He may have faltered in the later books but he is on his worst day better than that. 

 

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

They may not fall in love, but simply form an alliance.  Having them fall in love could have been exactly the type of short cut that two hack writers tired of their show would have come up with, instead of doing the plot work to make it a political alliance. They may fall in love in the books that will not be written...but, their book selves are really not each other's type.  Jon likes tomboy, down to earth, no muss no fuss type of women...which the blonde queen with 25,000 titles is surely not.  Khaleesi likes her men hyper masculine and rough and tumble...which Jon doesn't really fit that mold either. 

I find it hard to believe that the ending that GRRM has had in mind for 20 years is among the most cheesy, tropish of all time, that the queen and king come together and fall in love, and then, oops, he has to kill her to save mankind.  He may have faltered in the later books but he is on his worst day better than that. 

I rather like the idea of Dany hooking up with Euron.  He's the baddest boy of all.

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11 minutes ago, SeanF said:

 

I rather like the idea of Dany hooking up with Euron.  He's the baddest boy of all.

I don't really see that. Euron is a sadist, I don't think Dany would find anything about him attractive, but then, that can be my bias since I despise the character and feel it is a sad day when GRRM decided to give him an outsized role. 

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1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Time is a big sticking point for me. I don't see how they'll have time for Dany and Jon to fall in love, especially given that Jon will be less-than-human now, but at this point it seems inevitable. 

One imagines that the love story works much different in the novels, playing a huge part in turning Dany away from mundane politics and towards the forging an alliance against the Others. In fact, assuming Jon does come down south at one point (or the others go up north for some reason) he could play the crucial role to end the Second Dance of the Dragons.

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Like I explained in another post, based on their past behavior, I don't think D&D would choose to open themselves up to accusations of sexism by having Dany go postal unless they were trying to stick to the bullet points that GRRM gave them. But we're going to have to wait a while to find out.

Hihi, you gave them far too much credit. You are talking about the character who raped Sansa's character by having Ramsay rape her. And they started the show by having Drogo rape Dany in their wedding night. They don't give a damn about accusations of sexism.

And to be clear - I would also have turned Dany into the mad queen if I had been running GoT because that was indeed the best cheap twist to end that story. I mean, seriously, what is a better way to end GoT then by taking one of the heroes and turning them into a villain? The point of the show was to use cheap twists to hook the people after they run out of the good twists from George.

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

They may not fall in love, but simply form an alliance.  Having them fall in love could have been exactly the type of short cut that two hack writers tired of their show would have come up with, instead of doing the plot work to make it a political alliance. They may fall in love in the books that will not be written...but, their book selves are really not each other's type.  Jon likes tomboy, down to earth, no muss no fuss type of women...which the blonde queen with 25,000 titles is surely not.  Khaleesi likes her men hyper masculine and rough and tumble...which Jon doesn't really fit that mold either. 

The whole thing about George telling one of the directors during season 1 that 'everything was about Jon and Dany' strongly suggests that the romance is part of the core story. We are going to get that in some fashion.

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

I find it hard to believe that the ending that GRRM has had in mind for 20 years is among the most cheesy, tropish of all time, that the queen and king come together and fall in love, and then, oops, he has to kill her to save mankind.  He may have faltered in the later books but he is on his worst day better than that. 

That is likely not going to happen. The whole Others thing was botched in the show. There is no Night King in the books, no single hero who will defeat them ... instead we hear it again and again that the dragon has three heads. That's going to be important there. Chances are not bad that all those dragon heads (as well as their dragons) perish in the fight against the Others.

Jon killing Dany in some sort of sacrifice is possible but not very likely in my opinion ... it is more likely going to be some sort of self-sacrifice on their, likely involving both them considering Jon's undead state.

It might be that some kind of insidious betrayal on the side of one the 'good guys' (Tyrion, perhaps, or some other person) creates a scenario where, to defeat the Others, Dany and Jon have to do something that will get them killed.

We should also get the plot that there is going to be some good guy giving in to his dark tendencies, preferring to destroy the world rather than to see his love be with another man or woman - that is the kind of conflict George likes to play out. We will get a variation of the protagonist from 'Weekend in a War Zone' in ASoIaF.

19 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I rather like the idea of Dany hooking up with Euron.  He's the baddest boy of all.

Euron seems to be for Cersei. But even if Dany and he hooked up for a time, he would be her final lover/husband. That is definitely Jon Snow. But I don't see how this would work at this point when George deliberately chose to not have Euron go to Meereen. Having Dany hook up with Euron is about as difficult to imagine as Dany hooking up with Aegon.

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Everything was always about Jon and Dany, that is pretty obvious, but I don't think that means they fall in love or have any kind of romantic relationship.  Maybe they do, but I wouldn't bet on it.  They will come together and form an alliance and some combination of their respective fire and ice magic will defeat the Others, but that doesn't seem to have much to do with romance and certainly not with some hackneyed stabbing your lover ending.

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I found this on Reddit the other day, and I was pretty blown away. It could just be a coincidence, but after watching the series finale, the council scene from AGOT takes on a whole new meaning now.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/cdu64m/spoilers_extended_foreshadowing_of_daenerys_fate/

 

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2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Everything was always about Jon and Dany, that is pretty obvious, but I don't think that means they fall in love or have any kind of romantic relationship.  Maybe they do, but I wouldn't bet on it.  They will come together and form an alliance and some combination of their respective fire and ice magic will defeat the Others, but that doesn't seem to have much to do with romance and certainly not with some hackneyed stabbing your lover ending.

But something like the Dany-Jon story would have never happened in this show if it weren't in the source material. They had Daario for Dany. They could have continued to use him, just as they continued to use all the actors they liked as long as they could. Just think of the undeserved spotlight Ramsay got who is really little more than a footnote in the novels.

In fact, the Dany-Jon romance is so meaningless and silly in the show because they merge Jon with Aegon and have Dany being jealous of Jon's 'claim' - which something that really will not happen in the books. It would have just be repetition of the Aegon-Dany story with Aegon being switched for Jon.

I certainly have trouble imagining plots that would be ADoS territory at this point because they are very far in the future and, of course, because any kind of romance would need some time to breathe. Just look how long it took until Dany and Daario got together.

I'd imagine that this is going to be some sort of weird 'two people meet each other in the wild and don't really know who they are' scenarios. Perhaps somewhere in the North or even beyond the Wall (if there is a still a Wall in Westeros when these two meet).

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I found this on Reddit the other day, and I was pretty blown away. It could just be a coincidence, but after watching the series finale, the council scene from AGOT takes on a whole new meaning now.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/cdu64m/spoilers_extended_foreshadowing_of_daenerys_fate/

To me that's people just trying to connect dots that aren't really there. If you presuppose that the show wants to adapt ASoIaF in some manner then you will see such parallels. I mean, if you watch the series finale nonsense they heavily draw on previous established stuff but that's them ripping off themselves/previous Martin material, not pointing to unwritten scenes. You can see that happen pretty much in any of the later episodes, especially with stuff like the Unburnt 2.0.

The most cricitical thing why a 'Dany turns evil' plot likely is not really going to lead to her murder is simply that no matter how 'evil' she might get it is still very likely she will just kill people who deserve to die - and the people who survive won't give a damn what she did if only the war is finally over.

The little George revealed about TWoW is that is going to be a very, very dark book - and that at a time when Daenerys is not even likely to arrive in Westeros. If this is true then we'll see Aegon, Stannis, Euron, Cersei, Littlefinger, Catelyn, the High Septon, the Tyrells, the Martells, the Northmen, you name it continue to drown Westeros in blood never mind that the Others are preparing to make their move. This kind of thing has to stop. And if cities have to burn and castles to be destroyed to accomplish that ... then by all means, go through with that.

There is nothing wrong with any of that.

The idea that Dany could turn out to be worse than Euron or Cersei or Stannis or Aegon just doesn't really fly - nor is it particularly likely that Jon, Arya, Sansa, or Bran are going to be better than her (much less characters like Tyrion or Jaime).

The bottom line is that the show pretty much told a different story entirely.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

But something like the Dany-Jon story would have never happened in this show if it weren't in the source material. They had Daario for Dany. They could have continued to use him, just as they continued to use all the actors they liked as long as they could. Just think of the undeserved spotlight Ramsay got who is really little more than a footnote in the novels.

In fact, the Dany-Jon romance is so meaningless and silly in the show because they merge Jon with Aegon and have Dany being jealous of Jon's 'claim' - which something that really will not happen in the books. It would have just be repetition of the Aegon-Dany story with Aegon being switched for Jon.

I certainly have trouble imagining plots that would be ADoS territory at this point because they are very far in the future and, of course, because any kind of romance would need some time to breathe. Just look how long it took until Dany and Daario got together.

I'd imagine that this is going to be some sort of weird 'two people meet each other in the wild and don't really know who they are' scenarios. Perhaps somewhere in the North or even beyond the Wall (if there is a still a Wall in Westeros when these two meet).

To me that's people just trying to connect dots that aren't really there. If you presuppose that the show wants to adapt ASoIaF in some manner then you will see such parallels. I mean, if you watch the series finale nonsense they heavily draw on previous established stuff but that's them ripping off themselves/previous Martin material, not pointing to unwritten scenes. You can see that happen pretty much in any of the later episodes, especially with stuff like the Unburnt 2.0.

The most cricitical thing why a 'Dany turns evil' plot likely is not really going to lead to her murder is simply that no matter how 'evil' she might get it is still very likely she will just kill people who deserve to die - and the people who survive won't give a damn what she did if only the war is finally over.

The little George revealed about TWoW is that is going to be a very, very dark book - and that at a time when Daenerys is not even likely to arrive in Westeros. If this is true then we'll see Aegon, Stannis, Euron, Cersei, Littlefinger, Catelyn, the High Septon, the Tyrells, the Martells, the Northmen, you name it continue to drown Westeros in blood never mind that the Others are preparing to make their move. This kind of thing has to stop. And if cities have to burn and castles to be destroyed to accomplish that ... then by all means, go through with that.

There is nothing wrong with any of that.

The idea that Dany could turn out to be worse than Euron or Cersei or Stannis or Aegon just doesn't really fly - nor is it particularly likely that Jon, Arya, Sansa, or Bran are going to be better than her (much less characters like Tyrion or Jaime).

The bottom line is that the show pretty much told a different story entirely.

Something about resurrection regarding Lady Stoneheart and Jon: I know that GRRM has stated his issues about Gandalf's resurrection having no consequences, but I beg to differ on a couple of things.

  1. Gandalf is a Maia, an angel. Angels run on a different set of rules about resurrection than humans and even Elves.
  2. Gandalf is definitely changed by the experience; as Gandalf the White he is allowed to show quite a bit more of his power than as Gandalf the Grey and has a slightly different personality.
  3. Who brings Gandalf back? Eru, that is God Himself. God is the one who resurrects Gandalf; it's divine intervention.
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1 minute ago, Angel Eyes said:

Something about resurrection regarding Lady Stoneheart and Jon: I know that GRRM has stated his issues about Gandalf's resurrection having no consequences, but I beg to differ on a couple of things.

  1. Gandalf is a Maia, an angel. Angels run on a different set of rules about resurrection than humans and even Elves.
  2. Gandalf is definitely changed by the experience; as Gandalf the White he is allowed to show quite a bit more of his power than as Gandalf the Grey and has a slightly different personality.
  3. Who brings Gandalf back? Eru, that is God Himself. God is the one who resurrects Gandalf; it's divine intervention.

George has issues with the portrayal of Gandalf's return in the book (where this is essentially not explained - Tolkien's ramblings in some letter about who Gandalf brought back are about as relevant as Rowling outing Dumbledore in some press statement - in the book there is simply no proper explanation given as to who or what Gandalf actually is nor who or what brought him back from the dead) both in the way it is portrayed - death as a reward which makes you more powerful - as well as the effect it has on the overall story: it cheapens the journey of the other characters that Gandalf is back to help them.

I very much do not likely George's zombie plots. Or rather - I've no issues with the wights or Robert Strong, but I don't particularly like Beric Dondarrion. Catelyn works better because I really like revenge stuff, but I'd not mind it if she had stayed dead.

The chances that any of the characters in those books will get the Gandalf treatment are zero. If Jon's resurrection changes him then it will be for the worse, not the better - or rather: every new powerful magical gimmick his resurrected person will get is going to cost him very much on the humanity side.

This isn't a plot I like very much - I'd have preferred it if Jon hadn't been killed (which he effectively wasn't in the show). But since he was coming back will really cost him, possibly turning the entire character on his head.

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, if there's something in the Red Keep you want, you'd be more hesitant to flatten it.

I agree. Destroying the Red Keep wouldn't work because all the symbols of the legitimacy of are there: the Red Keep itself, but especially the Iron Throne. Just consider how much trouble losing Blackfyre cost Daeron II.

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24 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I agree. Destroying the Red Keep wouldn't work because all the symbols of the legitimacy of are there: the Red Keep itself, but especially the Iron Throne. Just consider how much trouble losing Blackfyre cost Daeron II.

Nah.  If she rolled in when she still had 3 dragons who is going to say she is not legitimate queen?  Everyone knows who she is already. She can build her own Iron throne if it comes to it.  Of course, had she rolled up with 3 dragons, the unsullied, the Dothraki and the Greyjoy navy, KL would have sent Cersei out in about 2 days.  No 'shots' fired so to speak.  

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3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Nah.  If she rolled in when she still had 3 dragons who is going to say she is not legitimate queen?  Everyone knows who she is already. She can build her own Iron throne if it comes to it.  Of course, had she rolled up with 3 dragons, the unsullied, the Dothraki and the Greyjoy navy, KL would have sent Cersei out in about 2 days.  No 'shots' fired so to speak.  

I'm surprised Cersei didn't get any backlash from:

  • The Smallfolk for getting the High Sparrow blown up
  • The Faith in Oldtown for blowing up the Sept
  • The Lannister Army for blowing up their remaining top commander Kevan (and being a kinslayer to boot by ordering his death)

 

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3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Nah.  If she rolled in when she still had 3 dragons who is going to say she is not legitimate queen?  Everyone knows who she is already. She can build her own Iron throne if it comes to it.  Of course, had she rolled up with 3 dragons, the unsullied, the Dothraki and the Greyjoy navy, KL would have sent Cersei out in about 2 days.  No 'shots' fired so to speak.  

For Dany it makes no sense to destroy either KL or the Red Keep. Those are Targaryen symbols of power. It is like Bran or Sansa would burn down Winterfell to reclaim the North. That would be utter stupidity.

In fact, it is even really believable anyone in KL would resist Dany if she had three or two or just one giant dragon at her disposal, regardless who presumed to sit the Iron Throne. Cersei could never keep the gates closed in such a setting, and neither could Euron or even Aegon. Rhaenyra also had a couple of dragons left and the people rose against her and killed them all.

If you suck so much as a king that the enemy can approach your gates and threaten you with dragonfire or a brutal sack you will get deposed or murdered. Just Argella Durrandon or Aegon II.

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5 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I'm surprised Cersei didn't get any backlash from:

  • The Smallfolk for getting the High Sparrow blown up
  • The Faith in Oldtown for blowing up the Sept
  • The Lannister Army for blowing up their remaining top commander Kevan (and being a kinslayer to boot by ordering his death)

 

Supposedly all that was done by Dany. And there is no Faith in Oldtown in the show Cersei has to take seriously.

Cersei coup is something that would never work in the books, and neither would the idea that Cersei of all people could be seen as a legitimate pretender or rival to a Targaryen pretender - be it Dany, Aegon, or Jon Snow.

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On 3/28/2020 at 6:07 PM, Cas Stark said:

Everything was always about Jon and Dany, that is pretty obvious, but I don't think that means they fall in love or have any kind of romantic relationship.  Maybe they do, but I wouldn't bet on it.  They will come together and form an alliance and some combination of their respective fire and ice magic will defeat the Others, but that doesn't seem to have much to do with romance and certainly not with some hackneyed stabbing your lover ending.

I think it actually makes sense for them to fall in love.

First because it is kind of obvious for them to have a political marriage. Unless one of them is already married when they meet this is the most logical thing for them to do. Even if at the time they love other people and both see the marriage as a political move then afterwards we see them fall in love over time. There are a lot of ways that their love can happen.

And the queen and king falling in love is something normal. It isn t cheasy. Having one royal falling in love and wanting to marry some nobody and jeopardizing his people for his/her love is cheasy.

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

George has issues with the portrayal of Gandalf's return in the book (where this is essentially not explained - Tolkien's ramblings in some letter about who Gandalf brought back are about as relevant as Rowling outing Dumbledore in some press statement - in the book there is simply no proper explanation given as to who or what Gandalf actually is nor who or what brought him back from the dead) both in the way it is portrayed - death as a reward which makes you more powerful - as well as the effect it has on the overall story: it cheapens the journey of the other characters that Gandalf is back to help them.

I very much do not likely George's zombie plots. Or rather - I've no issues with the wights or Robert Strong, but I don't particularly like Beric Dondarrion. Catelyn works better because I really like revenge stuff, but I'd not mind it if she had stayed dead.

The chances that any of the characters in those books will get the Gandalf treatment are zero. If Jon's resurrection changes him then it will be for the worse, not the better - or rather: every new powerful magical gimmick his resurrected person will get is going to cost him very much on the humanity side.

This isn't a plot I like very much - I'd have preferred it if Jon hadn't been killed (which he effectively wasn't in the show). But since he was coming back will really cost him, possibly turning the entire character on his head.

We have argued about this before, but the problem here is if jon wargs into ghost is he dead? would his personality change from spending a short amount of time in ghost? If jon is ressurected it will be a completly diferent from the other ressurections grrm did so far. 

I even think it is more likely that the price of the ressurection will be ghost and jon having some residual effects from being inside him (nothing important wether it is good or bad). Oh and he will be a competent skinchanger.

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The bottom line is that the show pretty much told a different story entirely.

I think this is irrealistic. They might have failed to adapt grrm storypoints but a lot of the events they showed must be from grrm. The danny turns into THE villain must come from him. They knew that people would hate that development and scheduled their interviews after ep 3 where they though they were going to be praised. Making danny the villain would allways lead to people insulting them and saying GOT is unfair to women and all that...

If it was a matter of removing danny from the game they could easily have her sacrificing herself in some war and jon deciding to remove himself because of grief or something like that...

Even the fact that grrm will fail to meet his imposed deadline and that he has been trying to sell that the books will end diferently shows that he was affected by how much people disliked the ending. If I remembre right a while ago he used na analogy of little mermaid's original story and Disney story to show that the books and show will be diferent. He didn t act like this when GOT ended. I seriously think he is completly lost about what to do with asoiaf as a result of how GOT was received

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