Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

[Angel Eyes]

18 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think my problem is that I don't really see what Sansa did as a betrayal, although I guess I was supposed to, based on the script. It would probably help if we had actually gotten to see the scene of him telling Sansa and Arya about R+L=J. 

They really disappointed us with major scenes not being shown, ie how did Sansa and Arya react to R+L=J when they learned of it.

I think that one of the show's biggest problems in the last couple seasons was the fact that we're told about how great some of these people are, ie how smart Tyrion and Sansa are, how badass the Golden Company is, stuff like that. And it turns out that nobody lives up to the expectations laid out for them.

The idea of subverting expectations is definitely flawed, and I think GRRM inadvertently started that idea thanks to events like Ned's execution and the Red Wedding; because something is not what is expected does not make it good, especially when it isn't tied down to the arc of that character, such as Arya being the one to finish off the Night King. Even D&D were building up to Jon vs the Night King in the Hardhome episode, which I might add is their storyline because Jon doesn't go to Hardhome in the books, and they decided to toss it out the window because it was expected. There's a reason why there are established tropes like The Hero's Journey; it makes things easier to understand, and indeed why something like Star Wars became so popular is partly because of how it's easy to understand and resonates with a lot of people.

[Cas Stark]

Sandra Lannister Bolton must have betrayed Jon a half dozen times.  She constantly undercut him in public, she plotted against him with LF, arguably ensuring the death of her brother Rickon by her BS with the Vale army, she almost killed her own sister, according to the show, and then, as soon as her first opportunity she breaks her weirwood oath. 

[Angel Eyes]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

Sandra Lannister Bolton must have betrayed Jon a half dozen times.  She constantly undercut him in public, she plotted against him with LF, arguably ensuring the death of her brother Rickon by her BS with the Vale army, she almost killed her own sister, according to the show, and then, as soon as her first opportunity she breaks her weirwood oath. 

She plotted against him with Littlefinger? I thought she wasn't going to plot with Littlefinger against Jon after Littlefinger sold her out to the Boltons.

[Cas Stark]

5 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

She plotted against him with Littlefinger? I thought she wasn't going to plot with Littlefinger against Jon after Littlefinger sold her out to the Boltons.

She didn't tell Jon about the Vale army but called for LF to bring the army.  I call that plotting against him, I'd even call it treason.

[Angel Eyes]

You know, there was an upswing of shipping Jon and Sansa from Season 6 onward, particularly after R+L=J was revealed. And I had a foot in it. Why? Because they had decent onscreen chemistry (better than Jon and Daenerys), and she gave him purpose. In the show, a man without purpose deteriorates; Robert degenerated into an adipose rex because he had no reason not to drink, eat and whore himself into an early grave, Robb was killed at the Red Wedding after he forgot his sense of purpose which was to rescue his sisters, Tyrion would have drunk himself to death before meeting Jorah and Daenerys, and Jon would have gone off to die alone if Sansa hadn't shown up; he fought Ramsay to take back their home so Sansa would be safe.

 

So I'll ask a question: is Jon and Daenerys a better love story than Edward and Bella?

[Le Cygne]

On 3/31/2020 at 11:15 AM, SeanF said:

What could I imagine a hardened Daenerys doing?  I could imagine her executing captured enemy soldiers out of hand;  wiping out the Great Masters of Meereen when she returns to the city;  wiping out the remaining slavers who fought against her.  Or (in show terms) executing the Tarlys, although as I've argued, I can't imagine any medieval ruler doing differently.

I think it would be totally out of character for her to murder thousands of the Smallfolk at random, so far out of character that only a complete psychological breakdown would explain it;  I think she would continue to extend mercy towards the women and children of her enemies, unless the women were very active opponents of hers. I would find it unimaginable that she would order rape as a tactic of terror. 

Yeah, Dany was no different than the other characters, and in many ways, more compassionate. That she was held to a different standard at the end was just their hack writing.

GRRM portrays Dany with compassion. He's got a lot of sympathy for Dany. Certainly as much as for any protagonist. She was portrayed to be tough but care about others.

(Also it's clear they kept changing things right up to the end. The "what if there's a better idea" thing, like they said. They didn't write proper stories, just hacked out an ending.)

[SeanF]

45 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Yeah, don't underestimate the power of marketability. I went on the HBO store site the other day, and they have a filter that allows you to view merchandise based on the character. Even now, Daenerys has twice as much merchandise as everyone else, even Tyrion. And then there's another category just for dragon merch.

They also turned Tyrion into St. Tyrion and had Jon remain completely unchanged by death. So I definitely agree that fan popularity played into their decision-making.

I see what you mean about Meereen and Yunkai, but I'm not sure if that's the way GRRM intended for us to see it. The reason why I say that is because he reportedly read the "Meereenese Blot" essays, which argued that Dany did achieve lasting peace in Meereen, and was very pleased by them, saying that the author was someone who "got it." I guess that leads us into another conversation about author intentionality and whether GRRM succeeded there.

Elio Garcia explained that Adam Feldman "got it" in terms of the themes - of Daenerys being torn between Mhysa and Dragon.  Martin never said he got it in terms of the peace being sincere.

All the available evidence suggests the slavers were just waiting for the Volantenes to turn up and stamp on free Meereen.  Feldman has never addressed this point credibly.

IMHO,it's not either/or.  A good ruler must be both Mhysa and Dragon.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think my problem is that I don't really see what Sansa did as a betrayal, although I guess I was supposed to, based on the script. It would probably help if we had actually gotten to see the scene of him telling Sansa and Arya about R+L=J. 

I would see it as Sansa trying to kick off A Dance of the Dragons 2.0, between Jon and Dany, and between Dany and her advisors.   Obviously, Sansa would want Jon (or Tyrion or Varys) to kill her, but it could just as easily have resulted in Jon's death.

If Jon won, Sansa was heir to the Iron Throne, and one step closer to getting her Northern crown.  If he lost, well, he was a martyr in the cause of Northern independence.

Dany made plain to Jon that people would move against her, once they knew of his parentage.  Jon, dumb lug that he was made to be in Season 8, handwaved her fears, and insisted on telling his siblings who hated her.  

[SeanF]

39 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

She didn't tell Jon about the Vale army but called for LF to bring the army.  I call that plotting against him, I'd even call it treason.

The most sympathetic view one can form of Sansa was that she wanted to take the credit for victory.

There are less sympathetic interpretations.

[Ser Drewy]

My memory of this show is (thankfully) fading, but what did Jon actually do after being resurrected? I honestly don't know what importance he was supposed to have oi the story following his death?

[Cas Stark]

13 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The most sympathetic view one can form of Sansa was that she wanted to take the credit for victory.

There are less sympathetic interpretations.

I am not much of a fan of book Sansa, but show Sansa was a terrible, and terribly stupid person.  The idea that I was supposed to cheer for that schemer when she finally got a crown, um, yeah,  no. 

[Angel Eyes]

Speculation: if Arya had sneaked into King's Landing and killed Cersei in Season 7, would she have been able to get back North to beat the Night King?

[Cas Stark]

I wouldn't have really approved of Ayra killing Cersei, but it was certainly a better idea than destroying Jon's story and making a mockery of the entire story of the Others.  

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I am not much of a fan of book Sansa, but show Sansa was a terrible, and terribly stupid person.  The idea that I was supposed to cheer for that schemer when she finally got a crown, um, yeah,  no. 

I'm not sure about stupid.  I'd say sly, cunning, ruthless, and possessing a complete lack of compassion.

[Cas Stark]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I'm not sure about stupid.  I'd say sly, cunning, ruthless, and possessing a complete lack of compassion.

She married Ramsay Bolton, 'for revenge' and then sashayed around WF insulting him and his family, never trying to turn him or his father r anyone into an ally before or after the wedding.  It does not get more stupid than that.  

[Le Cygne]

Littlefinger led Sandra around by the nose. She didn't play the game skillfully, she either meekly went along or lashed out. She didn't even have basic politeness down.

She seemingly got what she was after as Queen of the Extras, but they'll all starve and put her head on a pike. Branbot didn't object because he just gave it a few months.

 

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, Le Cygne said:

Littlefinger led Sandra around by the nose. She didn't play the game skillfully, she either meekly went along or lashed out. She didn't even have basic politeness down.

She seemingly got what she was after as Queen of the Extras, but they'll all starve and put her head on a pike. Branbot didn't object because he just gave it a few months.

 

I think she'd be Captain Swing in the North.  The rope, the stake, the torture chamber would all be a part of her armoury.

[Angel Eyes]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

I think she'd be Captain Swing in the North.  The rope, the stake, the torture chamber would all be a part of her armoury.

All in a rose room?

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Telling Tyrion about Jon wasn’t the only time Sansa betrayed him. She also betrayed him when she failed to  tell him about the Vale army. 

Yeah, well, that was the ultimate dumb show twist. They wanted to recreate the Battle of Helm's Deep, so they needed the Vale showing up to be a "surprise."

32 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The most sympathetic view one can form of Sansa was that she wanted to take the credit for victory.

There are less sympathetic interpretations.

I think the most sympathetic view would be that Sansa didn't want to include LF because he sold her into sex slavery, and she didn't want to be indebted to him. Then when she realized Jon couldn't win, she had to enlist them.

For what it's worth, someone wrote a pretty heartfelt essay about Sansa's decisions through the lens of an abuse survivor after season six ended. I sincerely doubt D&D considered any of this, but it's a pretty good read regardless: https://thefederalist.com/2016/07/26/why-sansa-stark-cant-trust-jon-snow-and-many-people-are-like-her/ 

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

You know, there was an upswing of shipping Jon and Sansa from Season 6 onward, particularly after R+L=J was revealed. And I had a foot in it. Why? Because they had decent onscreen chemistry (better than Jon and Daenerys), and she gave him purpose. In the show, a man without purpose deteriorates; Robert degenerated into an adipose rex because he had no reason not to drink, eat and whore himself into an early grave, Robb was killed at the Red Wedding after he forgot his sense of purpose which was to rescue his sisters, Tyrion would have drunk himself to death before meeting Jorah and Daenerys, and Jon would have gone off to die alone if Sansa hadn't shown up; he fought Ramsay to take back their home so Sansa would be safe.

 

So I'll ask a question: is Jon and Daenerys a better love story than Edward and Bella?

Jon and Dany are much better characters than Edward and Bella, at the very least, even if I don't think the show pulled off the love story.

Show-Sansa was inconsistent as hell, but I do think people overlook her being the one to draw Jon back from the edge of the abyss. And even if her and Jon bickered, we do know she still cared about him. She didn't want him to go South in seasons seven or eight because she thought he'd die if he did, and when Arya threatened to expose that dumb letter she wrote back in season one, she was worried about the northern lords abandoning Jon, not her. So yes, the show butchered Sansa, but I really don't see her as the villain in Jon's story.

[The Bard of Banefort]

22 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

She married Ramsay Bolton, 'for revenge' and then sashayed around WF insulting him and his family, never trying to turn him or his father r anyone into an ally before or after the wedding.  It does not get more stupid than that.  

I'm still trying to figure out why Littlefinger didn't leave so much as a single guard with her when he left for King's Landing.