Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

[SeanF]

51 minutes ago, Ghostlydragon said:

Yes definitely. And if it goes wrong then Winterfell is burned to the ground and everyone close to Sansa dies, no doubt with Dany saving her for last.

That Sansa did that despite the risk is insane and really shows what a terrible person she's become.

Sansa was playing for high stakes.

She obviously wanted Daenerys to be killed, but it might have gone the other way.  

[Le Cygne]

HA HA HA ran across this old interview from right after season 6. Nikolaj Coster Waldau:

What would it take for [Jaime] to finally forsake [Cersei]?

I’ve asked myself that question quite a few times. This is such an extreme world, but I’m sure there are people in your life where you go, why in the hell are these people together? Their relationship is abusive, and why do people stay in that? Or even get addicted to dysfunctional relationships. But I don’t know how far he has to be pushed. If he can forgive her for this, I think he can forgive her for everything. She was responsible for genocide, she forced their last child to commit suicide. On a scale of 1 to 100, with 100 being this is the moment when you have to leave, I think we are at 99.9. But it’s “Game of Thrones,” so you never know.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/28/arts/television/game-of-thrones-season-6-finale-jaime-lannister-interview.html

[SeanF]

I just watched rather a good film from 1978, called Power Play, about a coup d'etat staged by the army against a vicious civilian dictatorship in an unnamed European country.

Towards the beginning, there's a horrible scene in which a young woman is brutally tortured by the security police.  The scene is outrageous, and inspires disgust.  But, it occurred to me how very differently D & D would have handled such a scene. They would have fetishised it.

[Angel Eyes]

On 4/14/2020 at 10:35 PM, Tha Shiznit said:

I initially thought the same thing, but when Sophie Turner was asked at comic con after season 6 ended; in why Sansa didn’t tell Jon of the Vale army. She had no answer. So I’m of the same reasoning like Drangon Demands that David & Dan were just pandering actors emotating abilities on screen.

And they’re not even good at that. In the case of Sansa in Season 5, they just had a closeup of Alfie Allen making pained faces. So Sansa for Season 5 is sidelined to being a supporting character in Theon’s story.

[Ghostlydragon]

20 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

And they’re not even good at that. In the case of Sansa in Season 5, they just had a closeup of Alfie Allen making pained faces. So Sansa for Season 5 is sidelined to being a supporting character in Theon’s story.

I still despise the scene. I heard that much like her bath, it was the actress's choice on how much to show but just hearing her pain was awful. There was no reason the scene couldn't have ended with Theon closing the door or have Ramsay smile after he tears the dress off and end it there.

It just supports the belief that the scene is more about Theon and that it is his story.

[Le Cygne]

Then they had Tyrion say Dany didn't have sex with him, either, while he plotted her murder. The same Tyrion who murdered Shae. Seriously, do not reject THE PRECIOUS.

(So the precious was a joke. But it does fit. The show fell into Mount Doom.)

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

 

Then they had Tyrion say Dany didn't have sex with him, either, while he plotted her murder. The same Tyrion who murdered Shae. Seriously, do not reject THE PRECIOUS.

Wait, I thought you’re supposed to try to reject the Precious, the precious tries to get you to claim its power and corrupt you. 

Though, if Tyrion’s the precious, is Tywin Sauron?

[Angel Eyes]

So this is a point of mental confusion: why did Tyrion trust Cersei in Season 7? Out of all the people in the show, Cersei seems like the last person he’d trust; she’s bullied him all his life, tried to kill him a couple times (Ser Mandon, rigging his trial), and ordering a manhunt. Why in hell would he trust her? Makes just as much sense as naming Bran the Broken cock King.

And for a bonus: imagine if the show ended like this:

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

So this is a point of mental confusion: why did Tyrion trust Cersei in Season 7? Out of all the people in the show, Cersei seems like the last person he’d trust; she’s bullied him all his life, tried to kill him a couple times (Ser Mandon, rigging his trial), and ordering a manhunt. Why in hell would he trust her? Makes just as much sense as naming Bran the Broken cock King.

And for a bonus: imagine if the show ended like this:

Tyrion had a lobotomy.

[Many-Faced Votary]

On 2/1/2020 at 9:38 AM, kissdbyfire said:

@Many-Faced Votary, I’m not sure if all the nicknames are on this post, but they should be there somewhere. At any rate, if you haven’t seen the Carols, you definitely should, it’s priceless and spot on. 

Sorry for the extremely late reply; I fear life has kept me busy. I trust you have been well, friend!

Honestly, I might simply opt to post solely in this part of the forums until such time I am less busy and have completed another reread of A Song of Ice and Fire, so as to better contribute to the discussions on the work that matters. I even dare to hope that The Winds of Winter will be released by then, with my fingers crossed so as not to jinx it.

 

I was able to follow the link and read not only the hilarious and appropriately biting glossary, but also the delightful Carols, as you recommended. I additionally went on to peruse excellent and scathing retrospectives as well as some of the other insightful articles these intelligent ladies have published.

They do such a sublime job that I feel the aforementioned materials should be required reading for anyone interested in discussing Game of Thrones; these authors appear to miss very little, and are spot on with virtually everything they say, though this latter claim is admittedly somewhat subjective.

I will begin to use their recommended names and fill in the blanks with other ones as appropriate, as they very much have the right idea in dissociating book and show characters and thereby reducing conflation.

Thank you for sharing! I very much appreciate it.

[Angel Eyes]

On 4/8/2020 at 3:45 AM, SeanF said:

Another thing I couldn't stand about Season 8 (and to an extent earlier seasons) were the absurd military strategies and tactics:-

1. Stationing the Golden Company outside the city where they could easily be killed

2. Sending light cavalry charging against the army of the Dead

3. Stationing catapults outside the walls of Winterfell

4. Sansa failing to notify Jon about friendly cavalry before the Battle of the Bastards (admittedly, a more sinister explanation is possible).

5. Tyrion's daft strategies that got half of Dany's allies killed

6. Kinda forgetting about the Iron Fleet, days after having discussed it.

7.  Not so much absurd as sinister, the belief that starving the inhabitants of Kings Landing was the humane alternative to taking the city by storm.

Well:

Nobody thinks about scouting; for Cersei's armies, the Iron Fleet, the Army of the Dead, etc.

You know I've wondered: why could nobody send Arya to assassinate Cersei?

And of course, these wonky strategic decisions also extend into the previous season. I had my own multi-stage plan for how Daenerys could have done things. 

1. Make landfall at Oldtown. Since the Tyrells are aligned with Daenerys and have a foot in Oldtown via the City Watch and Lord Leyton's alliance with the Tyrells through his daughter Alerie, Daenerys can land in safe territory and be crowned there; remember that Aegon the Conqueror was crowned in Oldtown. From there, Olenna can raise her banners.
2. Here the campaign can split. Since Euron's fleet is in King's Landing, Yara can retake the Iron Islands or lay siege of Casterly Rock.
3. The Sand Snakes depart to secure Dorne.
4. Daenerys moves northward to the Riverlands to promote law and order and can cut off Cersei from raising armies in the Westerlands.
5. Now how to bring the North into the fold... that's another question.

[Ghostlydragon]

13 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well:

Nobody thinks about scouting; for Cersei's armies, the Iron Fleet, the Army of the Dead, etc.

You know I've wondered: why could nobody send Arya to assassinate Cersei?

And of course, these wonky strategic decisions also extend into the previous season. I had my own multi-stage plan for how Daenerys could have done things. 

1. Make landfall at Oldtown. Since the Tyrells are aligned with Daenerys and have a foot in Oldtown via the City Watch and Lord Leyton's alliance with the Tyrells through his daughter Alerie, Daenerys can land in safe territory and be crowned there; remember that Aegon the Conqueror was crowned in Oldtown. From there, Olenna can raise her banners.
2. Here the campaign can split. Since Euron's fleet is in King's Landing, Yara can retake the Iron Islands or lay siege of Casterly Rock.
3. The Sand Snakes depart to secure Dorne.
4. Daenerys moves northward to the Riverlands to promote law and order and can cut off Cersei from raising armies in the Westerlands.
5. Now how to bring the North into the fold... that's another question.

 

Great solutions, but that would require some intelligent writing which D&D proved to be incapable of.

 

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, Ghostlydragon said:

 

Great solutions, but that would require some intelligent writing which D&D proved to be incapable of.

 

Well, if they allowed themselves 20 episodes instead of 13 it could have been implemented.

Plus, my plan isn’t exactly foolproof. I’m still trying to figure out how Daenerys was going to bring the North into the fold. 

[Ghostlydragon]

12 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, if they allowed themselves 20 episodes instead of 13 it could have been implemented.

Plus, my plan isn’t exactly foolproof. I’m still trying to figure out how Daenerys was going to bring the North into the fold. 

Bend the knee or burn presumably  

[tscchope]

4 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, if they allowed themselves 20 episodes instead of 13 it could have been implemented.

Plus, my plan isn’t exactly foolproof. I’m still trying to figure out how Daenerys was going to bring the North into the fold. 

Marriage. Always a trusted method.

Even the way they did the show in season 8 could have had Sansa act in a true Littlefinger way. On learning of Jon's true parentage, she could have written to Daenerys saying that as she had already promised the Iron Islands their freedom (the TV show never did say why that would happen) she could free the North as well. It would be a shame for the great lords to have to learn that  there was another Targaryen available. Sansa was sure Daenerys would see reason. Meanwhile tell Tyrion and know he'd manipulate Jon into killing Daenerys.  Then she could use Daenerys' letter promising their freedom to kill Jon and Tyrion.

I think the Battle of the Bastards and the Vale army happened because Benioff and Weiss had forgotten they were trying to stitch together the book Vale storyline and the one they'd taken off Jeyne Poole. I think they kind of forgot about the Vale army. They, Benioff and Weiss, could have built on the 'A Stark must stay in Winterfell' idea from season 2 to keep Sansa in Wintefell in the tv show. They'd have had to change things from what they actually did do, of course.

[Tha Shiznit]

It seems that the Austin Flim festivals has released their Game of Thrones D&D panel, albeit a heavily edited version. I’m guessing that they’re too embarrassed to release the full version, it’s sad given that it was leaked online during the winter I think?

[divica]

On 4/22/2020 at 1:54 AM, Angel Eyes said:

Well:

Nobody thinks about scouting; for Cersei's armies, the Iron Fleet, the Army of the Dead, etc.

You know I've wondered: why could nobody send Arya to assassinate Cersei?

And of course, these wonky strategic decisions also extend into the previous season. I had my own multi-stage plan for how Daenerys could have done things. 

1. Make landfall at Oldtown. Since the Tyrells are aligned with Daenerys and have a foot in Oldtown via the City Watch and Lord Leyton's alliance with the Tyrells through his daughter Alerie, Daenerys can land in safe territory and be crowned there; remember that Aegon the Conqueror was crowned in Oldtown. From there, Olenna can raise her banners.
2. Here the campaign can split. Since Euron's fleet is in King's Landing, Yara can retake the Iron Islands or lay siege of Casterly Rock.
3. The Sand Snakes depart to secure Dorne.
4. Daenerys moves northward to the Riverlands to promote law and order and can cut off Cersei from raising armies in the Westerlands.
5. Now how to bring the North into the fold... that's another question.

Oldtown is too far to travel with an army. A storm could make her loose a huge portion of her troops. 

 

Given that she has 3 dragons the best place for her to land are either the vale (untouched by war, good strategic position and would weaken the northern alliance) or the stormlands in order to send mensage and have all southern kingdoms united under her. 

Even dragonstone is a good place if she intends to stop ships from entering KL. It is impossible for euron to come and go from KL without the people of dragonstone knowing.... 

[a black swan]

On 4/7/2020 at 5:58 PM, Le Cygne said:

Or, like, him (a long detailed story in the books, the author put a calendar picture of them as Beauty and the Beast up in his office, and another on his website):

As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

They gave them a scene during the hook up episode, that's probably a stand in for {insert book story here if we hadn't screwed both characters over out of sheer spite}.

They hated Sansa because she rejected their self-insert, Tyrion. So she lost her story. So consensual sex for aged up Tommen, Missandei, Pod, Arya: Yep. Sansa: Nope.

That's not the story GRRM is writing, no damn way. He said he had no idea what they were doing with her story, and damned if anyone else can make sense of what they did, either. 

Do you by any chance still have the source for that last bit? Did GRRM say it in an article/Q&A? Interesting.  

[The Dragon Demands]

yeah

[Le Cygne]

On 4/30/2020 at 6:54 AM, a black swan said:

Do you by any chance still have the source for that last bit? Did GRRM say it in an article/Q&A? Interesting.  

This is after the Santa Fe summit (after they met with GRRM), fyi the blog owner is a writer for Watchers on the Wall, and others reported he said the same thing:

"In a convention panel this year, George said on the record that he had no idea what they were doing with Sansa or where they’re taking her storyline, which now makes sense perhaps. He was not pleased when he was talking about it, so who knows what’s going to happen with her! Knowing GRRM, that could mean they’re going off the canon reservation, and/or that they’re going to be making a lot of shit up."

https://starkalypse.com/post/87703459951/might-be-useful-to-keep-in-mind

Here's some more:

Q - Sansa’s story, in particular, has really deviated from the books. Ramsay Bolton — that marriage obviously was with a different character. When they start deviating like that, did you initially have any emotional reaction, even though you worked in Hollywood for many years yourself?

GRRM - Well, yeah — of course you have an emotional reaction. I mean, would I prefer they do it exactly the way I did it? Sure... Some of the deviation, of course, is because I’ve been so slow with these books. I really should’ve finished this thing four years ago — and if I had, maybe it would be telling a different story here...

https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-features/george-r-r-martin-on-the-stark-sisters-and-ending-game-of-thrones-813890/