Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

[Ser Drewy]

One thing that crossed my mind recently is that in contrast to the other big fantasy adaptations we've seen - Lord of the Rings, Potter, and now The Witchers - is that whatever one thinks of them individually and how well they adapted the material, they are quite openly and proudly fantasy. Looking back on GOT it honestly reads like a fantasy show that's ashamed to be fantasy. The Stark's magic is seriously reduced, neither Jon or Arya got their skin-changing abilities, the Children of the Forest were punted to the side and never really explored. The Others became little more than a spectacle distraction and their own lore was laughably thin in the show, so much of Dany's mythicism was reduced or disregarded. It just gives the impression that for B&W fantasy was mostly cool effects and they gave it very little weight beyond that. 

[Le Cygne]

2 hours ago, Ser Drewy said:

One thing that crossed my mind recently is that in contrast to the other big fantasy adaptations we've seen - Lord of the Rings, Potter, and now The Witchers - is that whatever one thinks of them individually and how well they adapted the material, they are quite openly and proudly fantasy. Looking back on GOT it honestly reads like a fantasy show that's ashamed to be fantasy. The Stark's magic is seriously reduced, neither Jon or Arya got their skin-changing abilities, the Children of the Forest were punted to the side and never really explored. The Others became little more than a spectacle distraction and their own lore was laughably thin in the show, so much of Dany's mythicism was reduced or disregarded. It just gives the impression that for B&W fantasy was mostly cool effects and they gave it very little weight beyond that. 

Oh let's think of some more!

I'll repeat this one to add that they even let minor character Orell become a skin changer, but not main characters Arya and Jon. The direwolves were fluffy pets. Rover was just a neglected dog.

Speaking of dogs, they called Sandor the Hound, but again, it was just some quirky name he got with no meaning. And he didn't want to be a kinslayer in season 1 but this was ignored for a meme.

So kinslaying was no big whoop. Tyrion paid no price for kinslaying. Then when he talked Jon into kinslaying, he just got to frolic with his neglected dog. GRRM says no man is as cursed as the kinslayer. Whatever.

The FM was just about this neat mask wearing trick that anyone can do. Put someone's face on, become someone else. Easy. Then why did the rest of the world never catch on to this easy trick.

Mel was just some old lady they shamed for saggy breasts, because that's how they see women. She could do a few magic tricks with her necklace on but nothing that made a difference.

The one trick that did mean something maybe was bringing Jon back to life. But nope, it meant nothing. He just had some scars. Still the same old gaping fool who ended up back where he started.

Why even go there with the lord of light stuff? Ditto all the botched season 2 stuff with Dany and Quaithe. What was Essos all about? Daario got a happy ending because they forgot him.

I quoted above where they let slip in a mention of ghost grass in season 1, something GRRM uses to foreshadow, but the Dothraki were reduced to continuity error extras who repopulated between episodes.

Also they called Dany Khaleesi so often viewers didn't know her name was Dany, then she just forgot she Drogo, although she named her dragon after him. But hey, dragons are just stuff Satan uses to do Satan things.

They tried to eliminate all book things that would have added depth to the story, things other shows embrace, but whenever something good slipped in during the early episodes, they wiped it out later.

[Ghostlydragon]

29 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Oh let's think of some more!

 

So kinslaying was no big whoop. Tyrion paid no price for kinslaying. Then when he talked Jon into kinslaying, he just got to frolic with his neglected dog. GRRM says no man is as cursed as the kinslayer. Whatever.

 

Oh that annoys me so much. I'm sure that if Jon somehow ends up in a position where Tyrion is telling Jon to kill Dany for the good of the realm or otherwise, then he would refuse. Jon will refuse to be used and will also refuse to harm someone he is related to.

I can see Jon just walking away, or possibly standing by while Dany has Tyrion executed but there is no way he'll shamefully murder his aunt and/or lover. There's a reason why Victarion hasn't murdered his brother in the book. People don't kill their relatives. It's just something you don't do, and for Jon who values friendship and family so highly, he isn't gonna do it.

[Le Cygne]

2 hours ago, Ghostlydragon said:

Oh that annoys me so much. I'm sure that if Jon somehow ends up in a position where Tyrion is telling Jon to kill Dany for the good of the realm or otherwise, then he would refuse. Jon will refuse to be used and will also refuse to harm someone he is related to.

I can see Jon just walking away, or possibly standing by while Dany has Tyrion executed but there is no way he'll shamefully murder his aunt and/or lover. There's a reason why Victarion hasn't murdered his brother in the book. People don't kill their relatives. It's just something you don't do, and for Jon who values friendship and family so highly, he isn't gonna do it.

Indeed. Identity is a central theme in literature. Who am I? And it's central to ASOIAF. It's what makes characters and their stories compelling in any story or television show.

So this is not something where you can pose a question in the beginning and never answer it, or have the response be, Whatever. And yet, that's what the show did to all of the characters.

Jon in his big season 1 scene with Ned (who he thinks is his father but is not): Is my mother alive? Does she know about me? Where I am? Where I'm going? Does she care?

"Who am I" is Jon's central question, and it's at the very heart of ASOIAF.

Who is he on the show? Some dumbass who finally finds out and doesn't give a rat's butt, then kills his father's sister because someone tells him to do it, then goes off to frolic with his dog.

Also... Jon was not only talked into kinslaying by a kinslayer, he was talked into murdering a woman who rejected a man by that man. Tyrion told him so, right then and there. You got to have sex with her, I didn't.

Shae rejected Tyrion and he murdered her. Sansa rejected him and they took away her story and made her honor him. The sex slave rejected him and they made her beg him to have sex for free. Dany rejected him and he had her murdered.

[BlackLightning]

9 hours ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

The series wouldn't be complete without a religious conflict like this, but imo with these 2  it also wouldn't be complete if that conflict wasn't also over how to fight the Others - some subsets realizing they need to collaborate and figure out their connection / common origins, combine their green + fire visions to get the most complete picture possible, but the other apes would just be obsessed with their dogmas getting reinforced.

And the FM also getting involved as the probably man-made religion of the 3 but every bit as fanatical as the Reds - and then the "wrong" fanatic group making some kinda RW-like "purge", fucking everything up and causing a major setback, sth like that.

Euron and the other FM obviously partaking as well, at the very least.

I'm glad someone else recognizes the fact that series is incomplete without a major religious conflicts. And when I say major, I don't only mean a war between the Seven and R'hllor and the old gods. I mean Spanish Inquisition type persecution with witch-hunts, religious segregation, forced conversions, etc.

And yes, good point on the Faceless Men. I feel like the Faceless Men are onto something how there is only one god and it is a god of many faces, the god of life and death. They may be the ones who are most right about it.

As a matter of fact, I don't think Arya will be leaving the Faceless Men. Not really. Either she will try to quit and she will spend pretty much all of A Dream of Spring looking over her shoulder and sleeping with one eye open (like the Jason Bourne movies). Or, they will purposefully send her to Westeros to either assist the Others, fight the Others and/or assassinate a specific set of people.

The fact that GRRM found it that necessarily to mention the FM as early as A Game of Thrones and make so many direct ties between the FM, the water dancers, the Iron Bank, the City of Braavos itself, Littlefinger, Euron Greyjoy, Jon Snow, Jeyne Poole, King's Landing and the Riverlands tells us all that we need to know.

The one POV I am looking forward to the most in A Dream of Spring is Arya. I have a feeling she's going to have a lot of balls in the air and have her finger in a lot of different pies.

8 hours ago, Ser Drewy said:

One thing that crossed my mind recently is that in contrast to the other big fantasy adaptations we've seen - Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, and now The Witchers - is that whatever one thinks of them individually and how well they adapted the material, they are quite openly and proudly fantasy. Looking back on GOT it honestly reads like a fantasy show that's ashamed to be fantasy. The Stark's magic is seriously reduced, neither Jon or Arya got their skin-changing abilities, the Children of the Forest were punted to the side and never really explored. The Others became little more than a spectacle distraction and their own lore was laughably thin in the show, so much of Dany's mythicism was reduced or disregarded. It just gives the impression that for B&W fantasy was mostly cool effects and they gave it very little weight beyond that. 

Good point.

But I feel like the book series is actually going to have a massive sci-fi plot twist.

5 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Indeed. Identity is a central theme in literature. Who am I? And it's central to ASOIAF. It's what makes characters and their stories compelling in any story or television show.

So this is not something where you can pose a question in the beginning and never answer it, or have the response be, Whatever. And yet, that's what the show did to all of the characters.

Jon in his big season 1 scene with Ned (who he thinks is his father but is not): Is my mother alive? Does she know about me? Where I am? Where I'm going? Does she care?

"Who am I" is Jon's central question, and it's at the very heart of ASOIAF.

Who is he on the show? Some dumbass who finally finds out and doesn't give a rat's butt, then kills his father's sister because someone tells him to do it, then goes off to frolic with his dog.

Also... Jon was not only talked into kinslaying by a kinslayer, he was talked into murdering a woman who rejected a man by that man. Tyrion told him so, right then and there. You got to have sex with her, I didn't.

Shae rejected Tyrion and he murdered her. Sansa rejected him and they took away her story and made her honor him. The sex slave rejected him and they made her beg him to have sex for free. Dany rejected him and he had her murdered.

Yes, I know.

It's all very disgusting. Especially the part about Sansa.

[Ser Drewy]

7 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Oh let's think of some more!

I'll repeat this one to add that they even let minor character Orell become a skin changer, but not main characters Arya and Jon. The direwolves were fluffy pets. Rover was just a neglected dog.

Speaking of dogs, they called Sandor the Hound, but again, it was just some quirky name he got with no meaning. And he didn't want to be a kinslayer in season 1 but this was ignored for a meme.

So kinslaying was no big whoop. Tyrion paid no price for kinslaying. Then when he talked Jon into kinslaying, he just got to frolic with his neglected dog. GRRM says no man is as cursed as the kinslayer. Whatever.

The FM was just about this neat mask wearing trick that anyone can do. Put someone's face on, become someone else. Easy. Then why did the rest of the world never catch on to this easy trick.

Mel was just some old lady they shamed for saggy breasts, because that's how they see women. She could do a few magic tricks with her necklace on but nothing that made a difference.

The one trick that did mean something maybe was bringing Jon back to life. But nope, it meant nothing. He just had some scars. Still the same old gaping fool who ended up back where he started.

Why even go there with the lord of light stuff? Ditto all the botched season 2 stuff with Dany and Quaithe. What was Essos all about? Daario got a happy ending because they forgot him.

I quoted above where they let slip in a mention of ghost grass in season 1, something GRRM uses to foreshadow, but the Dothraki were reduced to continuity error extras who repopulated between episodes.

Also they called Dany Khaleesi so often viewers didn't know her name was Dany, then she just forgot she Drogo, although she named her dragon after him. But hey, dragons are just stuff Satan uses to do Satan things.

They tried to eliminate all book things that would have added depth to the story, things other shows embrace, but whenever something good slipped in during the early episodes, they wiped it out later.

They also had Sam find the horn on the Fist (possibly the Horn of Joramun?) back in Season 2 and then completely dropped it after that, and instead had the absurd plot with The Wight Hunt and the Night King getting Viserion to blow up Eastwatch. A lot of the mythical elements (Azor Ahai, Lightbringer) they seemed to add and then forget about as the show went on. It just seems like they didn't really have a long-term plan, going season by season without thinking about the next. The whole thing just seems haphazard and messy. It's sadly hilarious that the premise of the series in a feudal society distracted by realpolitik when a fantastical threat that could wipe out humanity is arising in the forgotten North; and they managed to contradict that, suggesting the Iron Throne is more important than the Long Night - which they shoved into one bloated, hard-to-see, dull battle episode rather than developing it as a proper story for the characters to engage with. 

[Pink Fat Rast]

1 hour ago, Ser Drewy said:

They also had Sam find the horn on the Fist (possibly the Horn of Joramun?) back in Season 2 and then completely dropped it after that, and instead had the absurd plot with The Wight Hunt and the Night King getting Viserion to blow up Eastwatch. A lot of the mythical elements (Azor Ahai, Lightbringer) they seemed to add and then forget about as the show went on. It just seems like they didn't really have a long-term plan, going season by season without thinking about the next. The whole thing just seems haphazard and messy. It's sadly hilarious that the premise of the series in a feudal society distracted by realpolitik when a fantastical threat that could wipe out humanity is arising in the forgotten North; and they managed to contradict that, suggesting the Iron Throne is more important than the Long Night - which they shoved into one bloated, hard-to-see, dull battle episode rather than developing it as a proper story for the characters to engage with. 

The Iron Throne itself wasn't, but the humans obsessed with it and causing a war was treated as equally important I'd say.

Also keep in mind that the Iron Throne and e4-6 were all revolving around dragons - a fantastical threat as dangerous as the WWights but not as autonomous i.e. controlled by humans; that factor and the negligence of their more mystical side after s2 cause many people to forget just how "fantasy" e4-6 still were lol

 

Either way while the execution of it in the show was janky in many ways, I dislike the idea of the interhuman conflicts being a mundane distraction that is to give way to the "main story" of the Others - it remaining as important and central to the story as it was at the start fits the series better imo.

Craster managed to make deals with the Others, and necromancy isn't unique to them either - I think this ideally sets up a plot in which the humans either somehow try to, say, wrestle control over the wights from the Others / create their own zombie army (like they control the dragons), and/or make pacts with the Others to win conflicts between each other;

old political and personal conflicts, but also increasingly religious ones, up to perhaps as @BlackLightning suggested, the Faceless Men taking the Others' side for fanatical death cult reasons or sth.

Defeating the Others in a Lotr-esque fashion and that being the finale, and defeating the Others in a Lotr-esque fashion and then resuming their civil wars as if nothing happened, both seem like disappointing directions to go in imo.

[Lord Varys]

16 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Tyrion is the Benioff/Weiss self-insert, and they glorified him accordingly. They made Dany bow to his wisdom and then die by his wisdom - they turned her into Satan and him into a Saint. And they replaced Sansa with their Sandra monster, because Sansa had the nerve to reject him.

They made both Dany and Sandra honor Tyrion. They even made the sex slave and Daario honor Tyrion. They were laughably transparent. To the point the actor who played him said he was so responsible and moral, his only challenge was how to best use his awesome intelligence.

Shae the prostitute he kidnapped and put in mortal danger for his own convenience really loved him! Benioff/Weiss turned "the great crime of his soul" according to GRRM into self-defense, a momentary setback until "the gift" found new ways to bless the world (arranging chairs, brothels).

Books are a different story.

That is giving them too much character. They don't think like fans wasting time on the internet, they write 'scenes' - if you want to call it that - for the actors they cast. The actors were the main factor that changed how they wrote stuff - because they wrote things for them, how they wanted to see them on screen.

And they liked Peter Dinklage to be a good guy - what the hell George wrote for Tyrion in the books was just something the setting was sort of inspired by. The crucial thing was the actor and how they wanted to see him.

The idea that they were influenced by how other fictional characters treated certain characters in the books isn't how they adapted this. They didn't give a damn about the characterization in the books. Pretty much no character in this show has the same character in the show.

[kissdbyfire]

According to the showrunners the IT was “an innocent bystander”. Isn’t that what they said? Or what was in their script notes or whatever? That should tell anyone all they need to know, really. 

[Le Cygne]

4 hours ago, Ser Drewy said:

They also had Sam find the horn on the Fist (possibly the Horn of Joramun?) back in Season 2 and then completely dropped it after that, and instead had the absurd plot with The Wight Hunt and the Night King getting Viserion to blow up Eastwatch. A lot of the mythical elements (Azor Ahai, Lightbringer) they seemed to add and then forget about as the show went on. It just seems like they didn't really have a long-term plan, going season by season without thinking about the next. The whole thing just seems haphazard and messy. It's sadly hilarious that the premise of the series in a feudal society distracted by realpolitik when a fantastical threat that could wipe out humanity is arising in the forgotten North; and they managed to contradict that, suggesting the Iron Throne is more important than the Long Night - which they shoved into one bloated, hard-to-see, dull battle episode rather than developing it as a proper story for the characters to engage with. 

Oh the horn and the other plots you mentioned, more good ones.

Agreed, GRRM has said just what you said about how they were spatting about politics while ignoring the real threat. And Benioff/Weiss went with the spatting.

If they were running the world, everyone would be dead. Because some of the people will smarten up in Westeros, and it sure wouldn't have been them.

They "fixed" the book characters and plots to their liking. They often did the opposite, like it wasn't bad enough to get the books wrong, they had to 180 them.

They did it a lot with Jaime, instead of saying no to his sister in the white sword tower, then turning his "new leaf" in the white book, he pushed the book aside to have sex with her.

Anything they didn't "fix" they abandoned. Anything with depth didn't interest them. They played to the lowest common denominator, which was themselves.

[Ghostlydragon]

Things keep getting worse. Has anyone noticed that Arya killing the Night King has somehow been nominated as Must See Moment in the 2020 Baftas?

Seriously. I mean yes it's probably the only thing you can actually see in the episode  but for that to get nominated is insane. The moment they killed the entire show is apparently one of the best moments in tv in the last year? Who votes for this? To me, and I'd argue a lot of others, it's the worst moment in game of thrones ever.

[Mystical]

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that they were influenced by how other fictional characters treated certain characters in the books isn't how they adapted this. They didn't give a damn about the characterization in the books. Pretty much no character in this show has the same character in the show.

It's not about the other characters, it's about how they (Benioff anyway) add themselves into the story via a character. I think Dragon Demands mentioned in one of his videos via a quote that Tywin was changed (and Jamie gained dyslexia) because Benioff wanted a 'I wish that was my father when growing up' story. So Tywin was a good daddy (and grand daddy to Arya) who would sit with his son and teach him. Because Benioff had problems growing up and apparently didn't get that support. So Tywin became a Benioff wish fulfillment instead of book!Tywin.

And you don't think a guy who rewrites a character for that purpose wouldn't also take it out on characters who didn't treat his self-proclaimed self-insert as a god?

[Le Cygne]

8 hours ago, Ghostlydragon said:

Things keep getting worse. Has anyone noticed that Arya killing the Night King has somehow been nominated as Must See Moment in the 2020 Baftas?

Seriously. I mean yes it's probably the only thing you can actually see in the episode  but for that to get nominated is insane. The moment they killed the entire show is apparently one of the best moments in tv in the last year? Who votes for this? To me, and I'd argue a lot of others, it's the worst moment in game of thrones ever.

It's tough to decide the most laughable thing about that episode, but Arya Ninja Turtle ranks at or near the top.

They rushed past the threat they established in the first episode and played up the entire series. Like you said, that moment is the one where if you were paying attention (and that was hard because it was all so stupid and so dark), you knew the jig was up. The show was dead.

Then on to Tyrion setting things right by murdering another woman who rejected him, and replacing her with his choice. The show was his game, and he arranged his toys to his liking. Then ended where he began, about prostitutes (peasant women pretending to like having sex with him).

I took a look, the reliability of online polls is very iffy anyway, but the moments themselves were decided by "TV journalists" so it's meaningless. The former CEO of HBO said they spent a lot of money setting things up to favor themselves, then snagging nominations and votes.

Adding this, if you search on Chris Albrecht (former CEO of HBO), there are lots of quotes like this:

"I was part of the team that invented how to campaign for Emmy Awards. Trust me, it's not a level playing field. I spent years inside the TV Academy, working it. It took a lot of money, and there's a certain amount of momentum that goes along with that."

[divica]

On 6/5/2020 at 4:16 PM, Le Cygne said:

Indeed. Identity is a central theme in literature. Who am I? And it's central to ASOIAF. It's what makes characters and their stories compelling in any story or television show.

So this is not something where you can pose a question in the beginning and never answer it, or have the response be, Whatever. And yet, that's what the show did to all of the characters.

Jon in his big season 1 scene with Ned (who he thinks is his father but is not): Is my mother alive? Does she know about me? Where I am? Where I'm going? Does she care?

"Who am I" is Jon's central question, and it's at the very heart of ASOIAF.

Who is he on the show? Some dumbass who finally finds out and doesn't give a rat's butt, then kills his father's sister because someone tells him to do it, then goes off to frolic with his dog.

This is spot on. The mistery of what happened in the rebellion, why rhaegar took Lyanna, his thoughts on profecy at the time (whether right or wrong) and how the main characters react to rlj is the core of asoiaf. 

And the show just fucked this up in a way that isn t aceptable. These informations are so important and have a meaningful impact in so many characters... The Stark siblings that aren t siblings and have been lied their entire life, the bastard that could have been king, the queen that isn t the last targ in the world, the Kingsguard that Don t know who to follow, the lords that won t know how to accept the info... 

[Ghostlydragon]

7 hours ago, divica said:

This is spot on. The mistery of what happened in the rebellion, why rhaegar took Lyanna, his thoughts on profecy at the time (whether right or wrong) and how the main characters react to rlj is the core of asoiaf. 

 

Not getting any scene where Jon tries to come to terms with that information, him struggling to take it in, how he wouldn't believe it was true at first. Why didn't we get to see any if that. Same for Jon telling his 'sisters' that as well.

 

And how what R&L did caused the deaths of thousands but the show just treated it as a Romeo and Juliet love story was awful. And how they decided that the Rebellion was based solely on Robert loving a woman who didn'tlove him was ridiculous.

[The Dragon Demands]

yeah

[ThotKiller]

I dont think Dany will go mad in the books. Dany will be ruthless maybe but not mad. And DnD Never says it was GRRM idea. When Shireen was burned alive they said was GRRM idea. Bran king they said was GRRM. But Dany mad? they never mention GRRM. 

NEVER.

[The Dragon Demands]

…..Maybe they were LYING that GRRM told them Bran would be king "of Westeros"?

[divica]

1 hour ago, The Dragon Demands said:

…..Maybe they were LYING that GRRM told them Bran would be king "of Westeros"?

I Don t think it is strange that grrm told them in one of his drafts bran ended as king. We know he intended for that to happen in that early plan for asoiaf that circulated some years ago. 

However he was also supposed to be the one that contacted the wildlings, tyrion burned Winterfell, Cersei didn t really exist, Jaime wanted to be king, joff and Robb fought each other in battle, Jon and arya were in love... 

So many things changed that I doubt that those pages still have any value... Just forgetting the 5 year gap must have changed the story drastically

[Ghostlydragon]

8 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

…..Maybe they were LYING that GRRM told them Bran would be king "of Westeros"?

Exactly. Everyone has been saying this for the last year. King of what exactly? This is just them twisting it to suit their story. E.g. Shireen is burned becomes Stannis burns her.