Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

[Many-Faced Votary]

Iconic lines are iconic for a reason; they are instantly recognizable, very likely to be well-written, and forthwith evoke the setting and context associated with them. For example, "Edd, fetch me a block." is short but sweet, immediately identifiable for what it is, meaning not just the decision to execute Janos Slynt, but a subversion of the expectation that Jon had changed his mind, when in reality he opted to do the act himself as per his upbringing. "Only Cat" is deceptively unembellished, but it sounds very natural, works perfectly as both subversion and expectation, concludes the scene and chapter masterfully, and fits perfectly into Lysa Arryn's arc in a way that "Only your sistah." does not accomplish.

Not only is there no good reason to change such excellent and simple lines, it seems malicious after a certain point. This would be akin to Mr. Peter Jackson randomly deciding that Gandalf should cry, "Run, ya idjits!" instead of, "Fly, you fools!" or that Galadriel should bite Frodo's ear and tell him, "You want a good girl, but you need the bad pussy." in place of the "Instead of a Dark Lord, you would have a queen..." speech. Granted, I absolutely have problems both minor and major with the adaptational decisions in The Lord of the Rings film series; in this scene, this includes how Galadriel was accidentally portrayed as selfish, and how true power appears to be unsubtle in direct contrast to the books. However, Mr. Jackson clearly respects the source material and seems to understand it quite well, and largely makes the correct decision to cut rather than change things where necessary; none of this can be said of Messrs. Benioff and Weiss.

[The Dragon Demands]

yeah

[Count Balerion]

I don't remember the broken man speech from the show, i confess. I do recall that the cleric's name was randomly changed, though, and wondering why.

Did any of Dolorous Edd's book dialogue make it to the show? Because I don't recall any, and I do recall being disappointed.

[Le Cygne]

  

On 7/10/2020 at 10:01 PM, The Dragon Demands said:

I remember in the commentary how proud Bryan Cogman was of his take on the Broken Man speech in episode 6.7 (or around that) by Ian McShane.  And you know Bryan....for a straight hour in this thing, he's pervasively giggling, jovial, and happy - EVERY god damned sentence punctuated with a chuckle, until you wonder if that's a psychological defense mechanism he's developed, or if he really is this happy-go-lucky lackey like that...

But the point is, he said how proud he was of it, and that it was "inspired" by the real Broken Man speech in the books.

And you're left wondering: why not just use the real Broken Man speech?

Obviously not the whole thing, the context had been shifted and simplified, to just "a random preacher who used to be a soldier conscript but it was horrifying and he feels guilty about it".  

When I say "why not use the original Broken Man speech?" I'm asking simply "why not directly quote even one or two sentences from it, then change the rest to fit the context of the TV episode?

I worry about reading too much into what the hell was going on in these writers heads, and Cogman isn't the same person as Benioff and Weiss so it's hard to say....but did there really come a point around Season 7 where they got all possessive and self-consciously thought of it as more "their" creation, than George R.R. Martin's?

Yes, this.

Cogman missed the point the Quiet Isle story, and it's really not hard to get.

They gave him the Sandor, Sansa, and Arya arcs, and he butchered them.

He could be quite mean to the characters. Gutting a character is mean enough, then making them say and do things they never would adds insult to injury.

He could be sappy, too. He had the corner on that. It was patronizing. And something was always off:  the wrong way, the wrong time, the wrong person.

Also he often justified what he did, stubbornly repeating what was clearly a mistake. Like how dare anyone not like what he did. He believed his own press.

[Le Cygne]

On 7/10/2020 at 9:16 AM, Corvinus85 said:

Lets not forget "Only Cat" becoming "Only your sister". That there is exact proof of them dumbing down the show.

This is a great example. Only your sister doesn't even make sense. They aren't strangers who have to refer to people as "your sister" - she's got a name, a name they would have said many times.

Saying Cat instead conveys intimacy, a mutual understanding of what was passing between them. And they could have had him refer to her as Cat moments before, to remind the audience of her name.

It's these little details that make a story seem real, and that people remember long afterwards. They are well loved lines for a reason. To not see that is so telling of how bad they are at this.

[Cas Stark]

Or, split the difference.  He can say, "Your sister.  Only Cat" if they really believed the audience was so stupid they didn't know who "Cat" was or that she was Lysa's sister.  I agree 'your sister' is wrong because he'd use the name of the person he's obsessed with, CAT.

[Ghostlydragon]

43 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Or, split the difference.  He can say, "Your sister.  Only Cat" if they really believed the audience was so stupid they didn't know who "Cat" was or that she was Lysa's sister.  I agree 'your sister' is wrong because he'd use the name of the person he's obsessed with, CAT.

And using Cat's name makes it hurt Lysa even more.

But yes much like we all forgot about Tysha, we clearly forgot who Cat was too.

[Le Cygne]

This is funny. From a review for Greyhound, which was a pretty good movie, but did have some darkly lit scenes:

"Not to mention some battle scenes are rendered through such a dark filter, it’ll give flashback nightmares to certain “Game of Thrones” fans."

https://chicago.suntimes.com/movies-and-tv/2020/7/6/21312573/greyhound-review-tom-hanks-appletv-movie-world-war-ii-navy-uss-keeling

 

[Cas Stark]

1 hour ago, Ghostlydragon said:

And using Cat's name makes it hurt Lysa even more.

But yes much like we all forgot about Tysha, we clearly forgot who Cat was too.

Well, we were also too stupid to differentiate between Asha and Osha, even though one of them is a blonde and one has dark brown hair, and they were never in the same scene or even storyline.  

[Many-Faced Votary]

50 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Well, we were also too stupid to differentiate between Asha and Osha, even though one of them is a blonde and one has dark brown hair, and they were never in the same scene or even storyline.  

Given that Yara Greyjoy bears virtually no resemblance to Asha Greyjoy, I was actually fine with this decision to indirectly reduce conflation.

Would that they had renamed all the other characters as well, since no one was adapted competently.

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Would that they had renamed all the other characters as well, since no one was adapted competently.

They’ve all been renamed here... Sandra, Larry, Carol, and on it goes.

[Many-Faced Votary]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

They’ve all been renamed here... Sandra, Larry, Carol, and on it goes.

Larrol is the unironic OTP. 

It is the most jarring with characters who had scenes that actually fit their book characterization and plot trajectory on occasion, such as the hypersexual brothel-dwelling Showberyn randomly transforming into Oberyn Martell a couple of times.

[kissdbyfire]

8 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Larrol is the unironic OTP. 

It is the most jarring with characters who had scenes that actually fit their book characterization and plot trajectory on occasion, such as the hypersexual brothel-dwelling Showberyn randomly transforming into Oberyn Martell a couple of times.

Until we got to the end, and not a single character had anything left from their book selves anymore. So stupid, the whole mess was atrocious.

[Many-Faced Votary]

21 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Until we got to the end, and not a single character had anything left from their book selves anymore. So stupid, the whole mess was atrocious.

I think a case could be made that the main characters became the opposite of who they were and will probably become.

Arya: "What does family matter? Vengeance is where it's at. Whatever, I'm bored and blowing this joint."

Bran: Upon being asked to be Lord of Winterfell: "I can never be lord of anything. I'm the Three-Eyed Raven." Upon being elected King of (South) Westeros: "Why do you think I came all this way?" Upon seeing his siblings and returning to his home: "LOL who cares?"

Brienne: Who could forget: "You sound like a bloody woman." And, of course: "Oh, fuck loyalty!"

Cersei: Lioness? What of her wrath? As if. She's just a girl who needs the comfort of a man.

Dany: Her Satanic Majesty, eager to spill the blood of innocents for literally no reason whatsoever.

Jaime: "To be honest, I never really cared for [the people of King's Landing], innocent or otherwise."

Jon: Absolutely useless in every way, shape, and form, with no resolution to his arc with the Others and no internal or external struggle with his identity.

Sansa: Let's just call this person "Asnas Krats" at this point since "Sandra" isn't enough, for she has become like Littlefinger and Cersei and has lost all empathy.

Tyrion: Happy-go-lucky saintly dwarf, but someone who apparently does not have to deal with ableism or self-loathing and has the intellect of a pebble, and who also has no deeply-seated and often forgotten desire to do better because he is already perfect in every way.

Yara: "By the Drowned God, I do so love reaving. What's that, independence for the Iron Islands? Meh."

 

[Corvinus85]

34 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

They’ve all been renamed here... Sandra, Larry, Carol, and on it goes.

 

29 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Larrol is the unironic OTP. 

It is the most jarring with characters who had scenes that actually fit their book characterization and plot trajectory on occasion, such as the hypersexual brothel-dwelling Showberyn randomly transforming into Oberyn Martell a couple of times.

I liked how Preston Jacobs, in his roleplay reviews, often referred to some of the characters by the actors' names. It wasn't Jon Snow, but simply Kit Harrington. Or not Dany, but Emilia Clarke. And of course, the Bran9000. 

 

[kissdbyfire]

18 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

I think a case could be made that the main characters became the opposite of who they were and will probably become.

Arya: "What does family matter? Vengeance is where it's at. Whatever, I'm bored and blowing this joint."

Bran: Upon being asked to be Lord of Winterfell: "I can never be lord of anything. I'm the Three-Eyed Raven." Upon being elected King of (South) Westeros: "Why do you think I came all this way?" Upon seeing his siblings and returning to his home: "LOL who cares?"

Brienne: Who could forget: "You sound like a bloody woman." And, of course: "Oh, fuck loyalty!"

Cersei: Lioness? What of her wrath? As if. She's just a girl who needs the comfort of a man.

Jaime: "To be honest, I never really cared for [the people of King's Landing], innocent or otherwise."

Jon: Absolutely useless in every way, shape, or form, with no resolution to his arc with the Others and no internal or external struggle with his identity.

Dany: Her Satanic Majesty, eager to spill the blood of innocents for literally no reason whatsoever.

Sansa: Let's just call this person "Asnas Krats" at this point since "Sandra" isn't enough, for she has become like Littlefinger and Cersei and has lost all empathy.

Tyrion: Happy-go-lucky saintly dwarf, but someone who apparently does not have to deal with ableism or self-loathing and has the intellect of a pebble, and who also has no deeply-seated and often forgotten desire to do better because he is already perfect in every way.

Yara: "By the Drowned God, I do so love reaving. What's that, independence for the Iron Islands? Meh."

 

Perfect!

17 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

 

I liked how Preston Jacobs, in his roleplay reviews, often referred to some of the characters by the actors' names. It wasn't Jon Snow, but simply Kit Harrington. Or not Dany, but Emilia Clarke. And of course, the Bran9000. 

 

PJ's reviews, together w/ blacknerdproblens were absolutely amazing and perfectly spot on!

[Le Cygne]

4 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Given that Yara Greyjoy bears virtually no resemblance to Asha Greyjoy, I was actually fine with this decision to indirectly reduce conflation.

Would that they had renamed all the other characters as well, since no one was adapted competently.

Oh if only they had renamed them all. This will always be good for a laugh, from the script:

Yara opens her mouth to respond but sees the look on Arya’s face. Yara is as tough as they come, but Arya-- Arya’s different. She sits...

Just a look from Arya... That's all it takes. Why didn't she go look at Cersei? She didn't even need to jump from the tree, just one look and the Night King would have sat down, too.

[SeanF]

6 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

I think a case could be made that the main characters became the opposite of who they were and will probably become.

Arya: "What does family matter? Vengeance is where it's at. Whatever, I'm bored and blowing this joint."

Bran: Upon being asked to be Lord of Winterfell: "I can never be lord of anything. I'm the Three-Eyed Raven." Upon being elected King of (South) Westeros: "Why do you think I came all this way?" Upon seeing his siblings and returning to his home: "LOL who cares?"

Brienne: Who could forget: "You sound like a bloody woman." And, of course: "Oh, fuck loyalty!"

Cersei: Lioness? What of her wrath? As if. She's just a girl who needs the comfort of a man.

Jaime: "To be honest, I never really cared for [the people of King's Landing], innocent or otherwise."

Jon: Absolutely useless in every way, shape, or form, with no resolution to his arc with the Others and no internal or external struggle with his identity.

Dany: Her Satanic Majesty, eager to spill the blood of innocents for literally no reason whatsoever.

Sansa: Let's just call this person "Asnas Krats" at this point since "Sandra" isn't enough, for she has become like Littlefinger and Cersei and has lost all empathy.

Tyrion: Happy-go-lucky saintly dwarf, but someone who apparently does not have to deal with ableism or self-loathing and has the intellect of a pebble, and who also has no deeply-seated and often forgotten desire to do better because he is already perfect in every way.

Yara: "By the Drowned God, I do so love reaving. What's that, independence for the Iron Islands? Meh."

 

I love this.  It's spot on.

[SeanF]

6 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

 

I liked how Preston Jacobs, in his roleplay reviews, often referred to some of the characters by the actors' names. It wasn't Jon Snow, but simply Kit Harrington. Or not Dany, but Emilia Clarke. And of course, the Bran9000. 

 

Bran becoming King at the end was the equivalent of R2D2 becoming Galactic Emperor at the end of Return of the Jedi.

Actually, R2D2 was more charismatic, come to think of it.

[SeanF]

On 7/5/2020 at 2:18 PM, SeanF said:

My guess would be that they suddenly realised that people dying by wildfire explosion doesn't actually provide much of a justification for Jon killing Daenerys.  Jon killing Daenerys simply in order to save Sansa would have left Jon as a very unsympathetic and stupid character.  But, it didn't work anyway.

Revisiting this issue.  

I think the sack of Kings Landing by Dany's and Jon's soldiers makes sense, in a medieval world.  These are people who have been fighting for months, faced the army of the Dead, and have taken the city by storm.  The city's commander promised to fight alongside them, before betraying them.  She then refused to surrender when called upon to do so, instead, publicly executing a prominent prisoner.  In addition, the Northmen have the deaths of Ned Stark and his men to avenge, the treatment of Sansa to avenge, and the Red Wedding to avenge (almost every Northern soldier  will have lost someone they knew).  If a city fails to surrender, the victorious army will go on the rampage, once it's taken, and these are men with a lot of scores to settle.  That's entirely in accordance with the laws of war.  That said, while a sack will involve killing, a massacre of the entire population is rarely on the cards, unless there's some religious motivation.

Daenerys burning the Red Keep to the ground makes sense as well, in terms of the narrative.  She has spoken of it several times, and she too, would be full of anger at Missandei's death, and keen for revenge on Cersei.

What makes no sense at all, as @The Dragon Demandshas demonstrated, is that Daenerys should turn aside from the Red Keep to wantonly incinerate women and children.  It's not part of her character (as established in the first 71 episodes of the show) and it's not what we see her intending to do when she takes off on Drogon;  nor is it what she said she was going to do beforehand. 

It could perhaps have been made explicable, if she had had a complete mental breakdown;  or if there were a botched surrender;  or, if the Lannisters had embedded themselves among the civilians, leaving her the choice between retreat from the city, or burning her enemies - but  D & D chose the worst and lamest explanation - turning her into a mad Nazi intent on conquering the world, and then via Tyrion, retconning her anti-slavery campaign as evil.