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Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!


The Fattest Leech

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OK, that bloodmoony thing.

One thing that did sound cool was the COTF language, which iirc was approved by Martin.

And now I'm annoyed GOT didn't have robot dinosaurs. That would have been a riot.

Anyway, Bloodmoon sounds as if it would have been a bore.

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6 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Here's a new article:

Once believed to have gone extinct, Daenerys Targaryen’s three dragons — Drogon, Rhaegal, and Viserion — were fierce, powerful creatures. Armed with scales that shielded them against the most lethal attacks, the dragons could decimate entire cities with a simple “Dracarys” command from Daenerys.

It shouldn’t have been possible for Game of Thrones to kill off Daenerys’ dragons so easily. Euron Greyjoy quickly dispatched Rhaegal in Game of Thrones Season 8, shooting a scorpion dart through his underbelly. In Season 7, the Night King killed Viserion by launching an ice spear through his neck. It was disappointing to see these immensely powerful creatures one-shotted after hearing so much about their legendary power. But the deaths of Rhaegal and Viserion don't align with the lore within George R.R. Martin’s A Song of Ice and Fire. The Winds of Winter, the sixth book in the series, could fix the biggest dragon problem from Game of Thrones...

If Rhaegal is to ultimately die in The Winds of Winter, it should definitely be more of a climactic event than on the show, especially considering that Euron was a relatively new character who just happened to take a random shot at a dragon. It's possible Euron will attempt to figure out how to kill dragons so that he can take the perfect shot, likely through the eye.

There's a slim chance that none of the dragons will die, but Daenerys' claim to the Iron Throne makes them an obvious target for her enemies. The very least The Winds of Winter could do is give Rhaegal and Viserion a more memorable sendoff.

Also another newish one:

All that said, it would be a mistake for Cleganebowl to happen. It wasn’t very satisfying in the show and it’s sure to be less satisfying if it happens in The Winds of Winter. This is especially true considering Sandor’s personal journey thus far. Sandor’s entire life has been spent trying to fight the urge to be violent. He hated Gregor for the brutality and violence he so easily used against people. Sandor wanted to be better than his rage-fueled brother, as evidenced by his loyal protection of the Stark sisters. He’s had a lot of missteps, but the Hound’s path towards a life of less violence has been satisfying. Still, it was frustrating to see Sandor develop meaningful friendships and find a cause bigger than revenge, only to give his life at the end of Season 8 to fulfill the vendetta he'd outgrown.

If the Hound is indeed revealed to be the gravedigger, then it might be best to let him live out the rest of his life in peace — or at least leave his fraternal grudge in the past. He’s suffered at the hands of his brother long enough.

https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/winds-of-winter-release-date-dragons

Completely agreed on the first one.  Not so sure on the second.  I think, should Sandor end up battling the monster his brother has become, Martin will handle it deftly enough.  The brother that Sandor absolutely lived to exact vengeance on is dead and it certainly seems he's laid that thirst for vengeance aside.  But there may still be ways that Martin could have Sandor and the undead Robert Strong come into conflict.  Just spitballin', but what if Cercei chooses Robert Strong to be her champion in a trial by combat in which Sandor has an interest in the outcome?  Or...could Sandor find out what's happened to his brother and actually want to try to put an end to his undeath?  I don't know but I wouldn't be at all surprised if Martin still has them battle.  However, all the difference could be made in the circumstances and Sandor's motivation for doing so.  

ETA: Not that Gregor wasn't already a sadistic, psychopathic, murdering monster when he was alive. It's just that now he's an actual undead monster being used by another sadistic, psychopathic, murdering monster;)    

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4 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

They actually made a show about how honor is stupid.

It is worse than just that. The showrunners successfully produced a show where nothing means anything (not that they would understand how to write otherwise), everything is bad and you should feel bad, everyone is despicable (not that they realized this one), honor is stupid and gets you killed, love is dumb, xenophobia is commendable, playing the Game of Thrones is good, and winning the Game is zero-sum and necessitates taking lessons from such individuals as Littlefinger and Cersei.

 

In A Song of Ice and Fire, the true stakes of the series are introduced immediately and maintained throughout the epic, while the petty power grasps and horrible wars are depicted by their true nature, even if the reader sometimes forgets themselves and thinks otherwise in the moment. The futility of revenge is explored often and deeply, and explicitly connected to unending death and suffering through Lady Stoneheart. The Game of Thrones is repeatedly demonstrated to be a terrible thing; the suffering of the conscripts, knights, and their families, the plight of all the smallfolk, and indeed even the hardships of the high lords who participate, are clearly kept in view. Tywin's legacy, built on fear, brutality, and blood, begins to fall apart immediately after his death, for all that his diabolical intelligence and cold cunning awarded him temporary gratification; his children will also take each other apart, due to his abusive parenting. Ned and Cat's legacy, built on love, honor, and justice (inasmuch as that is possible in a feudal setting), holds strong for the sake of their children and their part of the realm; their men would happily march and die for "the Ned's little girl," and the reader has every reason to believe their children will reconnect and reform their home, due to their warm parenting.

The aforementioned petty conflicts are understood by the audience -- and will be understood by the main characters -- not to matter in the face of an existential threat to humankind, the Second Long Night, which compels unity and the ability to compromise. The Others in the books are portrayed as intelligent and sapient, but also inimical to life (as we know it) itself. Their modus operandi includes murdering and resurrecting other forms of life, effectively enslaving them as thralls; this is how Dany's story maintains a thematic connection to the overarching antagonists even while she remains on another continent. To fight Ice, the world needs Fire; to preserve life, the people must set aside their differences and work together for a common good.

 

In Game of Thrones, we see essentially the exact opposite. Revenge is the best thing ever, and indeed the only reason anyone would do anything. War is glorified; Machiavellian measures are extolled; bloody maintenance of self-image is dignified; and the smallfolk are completely irrelevant, shamelessly used as props or strawmen the rare instances they are shown. The existential threat is marginalized and rarely kept in view, and presented as a silly zombie war instead of a creepy and fundamentally terrifying conflict from those utterly alien to humankind the one time it was in full focus at Hardhome Hard-On. Moments of love and levity are completely eliminated, often replaced with snark or cruelty in direct contradiction to the books, except for the sake of blatant emotional manipulation of the audience. Honor is misunderstood, simplified, and ultimately deemed to be stupid; and fighting injustice and generally doing good is suggested to be either pointless (Jonny) or a sign of true evil (Daedpan).

It was not only understandable to root for the White Walkers in the show, but also judicious to do so. Every human was utterly despicable by the end, either starting that way and ultimately reinforcing it or through learning that such is the way to be empowered and to win petty games of power, which of course was presented as a good thing to do. On the other hand, the White Walkers seemed to have a nice adoption policy, appeared to get along well with each other and with their wights, and would have made their new world open to everyone. Too bad humankind did not -- and never would have, in the show-universe -- band together to take out this threat, which was neatly eliminated as a simple distraction from what truly mattered, the Game of Thrones. 

 

One cannot even properly call the series nihilistic. Of course it was, but ultimately everything prove to be completely and utterly meaningless; even nihilism offers a purpose, whatever one might think of that purpose. What were the themes and motifs of the show, or of individual seasons? What were the themes of even individual plotlines (and only plotlines, because actual character arcs essentially stopped occurring after Season 4)? I understand the showrunners believe themes to be a matter for eight-grade book reports, but they inherently ascribe meaning to narratives, and the show did not even have consistent accidental themes.

Although, it must be noted, the bigotry in the form of sexism, racism, ableism, classism, religious intolerance, whorephobia, and what have you was very consistent. Thus, we could conclude some horrible things from what the show continuously demonstrated, including but not limited to: that women in power is fundamentally bad because they are crazy and cannot control their emotions, unless they are directly granted their positions by men because no one else wanted it (Asnas Krats); that people of color, including crazy Pornishmen as well as the faceless and, for some reason and contrary to canon, the racially homogenous Essosi, are evil and uncivilized savages; that mental illness is fundamentally evil and genetic predeterminism is accurate; that smallfolk don't matter and only serve to enhance the stories of nobles; that religion is evil and fake and empowerment is denouncing it, and the only good practitioners are those who do not even know their own tenets (Septon Ray); and that sex workers and sex slaves should be thankful for their lot in life, and that they want nothing more than to offer free sex to men who "deserve" it.

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7 hours ago, Prince of the North said:

Completely agreed on the first one.  Not so sure on the second.

The article is right, he's already suffered enough at his hands. He doesn't want to be a kinslayer, and it would be horrible if he was forced to be one. It would wipe out his whole arc, just like it did on the show.

The ones he talked to about his brother are Sansa and Arya. I think it would be a nice twist for one of them to protect him for a change. GRRM likes earned surprises, whereas the show goes for the predictably stupid.

I think whatever happens, as with all things, it will be an actual story, and not destroy the story that came before it, which is already way ahead of the stupid show.

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8 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

The article is right, he's already suffered enough at his hands. He doesn't want to be a kinslayer, and it would be horrible if he was forced to be one. It would wipe out his whole arc, just like it did on the show.

The ones he talked to about his brother are Sansa and Arya. I think it would be a nice twist for one of them to protect him for a change. GRRM likes earned surprises, whereas the show goes for the predictably stupid.

I think whatever happens, as with all things, it will be an actual story, and not destroy the story that came before it, which is already way ahead of the stupid show.

Good point.  And I...kind of agree.  I realize this is not supposed to be a debate thread so I'll leave off after this but another interesting question is, I think, is "Robert Strong" Gregor Clegane/Sandor's brother anymore?  I don't know the answer to that question but it could be another thing Martin wants readers to wrestle with (just like whether the Queen of Thorns is good or bad in poisoning Joffery, etc.)  All I know is, should anything along these lines be done, as you said, it will be an actual story.:)

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1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

I wonder if the prequel will really get produced.  There isn't much appetite for GOT among the public, combined with the huge costs of CGI and COVID, it may never get off the storyboard. 

If AGOT had ended to critical acclaim, and fandom acclaim, then yes, I'm sure the prequel would be made.  But, D & D trashed the brand.

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19 minutes ago, SeanF said:

If AGOT had ended to critical acclaim, and fandom acclaim, then yes, I'm sure the prequel would be made.  But, D & D trashed the brand.

Yeah, that's what I mean.  Although I confess to not understanding why GRRM spent all this time on F&B with the original idea of a Targ prequel, since the end of the GOT story, even if it had been done well, still undercuts that storyline, you would know that the destiny of House Targaryen is extinction.  

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1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

I wonder if the prequel will really get produced.  There isn't much appetite for GOT among the public, combined with the huge costs of CGI and COVID, it may never get off the storyboard. 

GRRM probably has some contract that forces HBO to make a spin off series as payment for him not trashing GOT even after it ended. 

It is kind of the only explanation for grrm still being so nice to HBO after GOT putting him in an awful situation regarding the books. 

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1 hour ago, divica said:

GRRM probably has some contract that forces HBO to make a spin off series as payment for him not trashing GOT even after it ended. 

It is kind of the only explanation for grrm still being so nice to HBO after GOT putting him in an awful situation regarding the books. 

I doubt it, because at the time he sold the rights he wouldn't have had that kind of leverage and HBO could never have conceived that a medieval fantasy show would become the biggest show on the planet.  You can't blame GOT for the books situation, thats all on George. 

 

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4 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Well, technically the Children of the Forest language wasn't just a Bloodmoon thing; he expanded it for that, but Peterson said he developed it for Season 6 of Game of Thrones itself - then they decided not to use it on-screen at the last minute.

Ah, in that case, Bloody can rest in pieces. The *name* still sounds kind of cool, I guess, if not very meaningful.

And "deciding at the last minute" seems to be a big part of the Ds' modus operandi. "Let's make Dany evil at the last minute!" "But we haven't built up to that!" "We haven't ... what?"

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2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I doubt it, because at the time he sold the rights he wouldn't have had that kind of leverage and HBO could never have conceived that a medieval fantasy show would become the biggest show on the planet.  You can't blame GOT for the books situation, thats all on George. 

 

Furthermore, there are several good reasons for Martin to continue to play nice with HBO regardless of his feelings one way or the other about how the abomination turned out. 

And, yes, the pace of the writing and book releases is all on Martin.  No one's been able to hurry him with that for quite some time now. 

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On 7/19/2020 at 8:44 AM, Prince of the North said:

Good point.  And I...kind of agree.  I realize this is not supposed to be a debate thread so I'll leave off after this but another interesting question is, I think, is "Robert Strong" Gregor Clegane/Sandor's brother anymore?  I don't know the answer to that question but it could be another thing Martin wants readers to wrestle with (just like whether the Queen of Thorns is good or bad in poisoning Joffery, etc.)  All I know is, should anything along these lines be done, as you said, it will be an actual story.:)

Whether he suffers at the hands of his brother or his brother's animated corpse, the message is that you can never escape past abuse, which is show territory.  Many reviews said the same thing, it's a terrible message.

Thematically, it would be more interesting and profound for someone else to do it. GRRM's style is an intricate interweaving of characters and motivations. Like the one you bring up, the Queen of Thorns killing Joffrey.

Now, that is something Benioff/Weiss would never have come up with, because it's not obvious she will be the one to do it from the start, and it's very layered, the build-up towards that happening. That is a GRRM style plot.

Here's one (there are lots of good reviews here):

Loser: Cleganebowl

After years upon years of hype, Cleganebowl aimed for the epic while feeling utterly inconsequential, which is maybe a great subtweet of “The Bells” as a whole. It took place on a crumbling staircase (cool), as a dragon periodically flew overhead (cool), and as we looked upon the zombified remains of Gregor Clegane (COOL!).

But as it was happening, I realized I had absolutely no emotional investment in what was unfolding, beyond having a vague idea that I was sad the Hound couldn’t escape his own cycles of abuse and trauma. It played out in the most perfunctory fashion possible, though I’m pretty sure it would have sounded so much cooler if scored by the Doof Warrior from Mad Max: Fury Road.

Loser: the breaking of cycles

Much of Game of Thrones, thematically, has been about breaking destructive cycles — whether political cycles, cycles of violence, or cycles of oppression... (For more on this idea, check out Twitter user @chachch_changes’ thread on Cleganebowl.) So some portion of the [show] ending will be at least somewhat hopeful about the possibility of breaking these cycles, right?

Nah. That turns out to mostly not be the case, and it turns out to not be the case in the most bitter and dark way possible, as Daenerys succumbs to what amounts to a family curse, the Hound plunges into battle against the Mountain, and Jaime returns to Cersei after seeming to swear her off multiple times previously.

https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/5/13/18617316/game-of-thrones-season-8-episode-5-recap-the-bells-winners-losers

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4 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Whether he suffers at the hands of his brother or his brother's animated corpse, the message is that you can never escape past abuse, which is show territory.  Many reviews said the same thing, it's a terrible message.

Thematically, it would be more interesting and profound for someone else to do it. GRRM's style is an intricate interweaving of characters and motivations. Like the one you bring up, the Queen of Thorns killing Joffrey.

Now, that is something Benioff/Weiss would never have come up with, because it's not obvious she will be the one to do it from the start, and it's very layered, the build-up towards that happening. That is a GRRM style plot.

Here's one (there are lots of good reviews here):

Loser: Cleganebowl

After years upon years of hype, Cleganebowl aimed for the epic while feeling utterly inconsequential, which is maybe a great subtweet of “The Bells” as a whole. It took place on a crumbling staircase (cool), as a dragon periodically flew overhead (cool), and as we looked upon the zombified remains of Gregor Clegane (COOL!).

But as it was happening, I realized I had absolutely no emotional investment in what was unfolding, beyond having a vague idea that I was sad the Hound couldn’t escape his own cycles of abuse and trauma. It played out in the most perfunctory fashion possible, though I’m pretty sure it would have sounded so much cooler if scored by the Doof Warrior from Mad Max: Fury Road.

Loser: the breaking of cycles

Much of Game of Thrones, thematically, has been about breaking destructive cycles — whether political cycles, cycles of violence, or cycles of oppression... (For more on this idea, check out Twitter user @chachch_changes’ thread on Cleganebowl.) So some portion of the [show] ending will be at least somewhat hopeful about the possibility of breaking these cycles, right?

Nah. That turns out to mostly not be the case, and it turns out to not be the case in the most bitter and dark way possible, as Daenerys succumbs to what amounts to a family curse, the Hound plunges into battle against the Mountain, and Jaime returns to Cersei after seeming to swear her off multiple times previously.

https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/5/13/18617316/game-of-thrones-season-8-episode-5-recap-the-bells-winners-losers

Well...respectfully disagree again.  I don't believe the only message, should Sandor and Robert Strong come blows in the books, is "you can never escape past abuse".  I believe Sandor's motivation for confronting Robert Strong being something other than vengeance could indicate already escaping/moving past/breaking the cycle of living for vengeance on his brother.  I'm not saying this will happen - none of us knows that yet.  I'm just saying that I think it still could but that the circumstances surrounding it and Sandor's reasons for doing so would make all the difference.  Again, as we've both said, regardless of what happens at least it'll be an actual story:)         

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On 7/19/2020 at 10:15 AM, Cas Stark said:

I doubt it, because at the time he sold the rights he wouldn't have had that kind of leverage and HBO could never have conceived that a medieval fantasy show would become the biggest show on the planet.  You can't blame GOT for the books situation, thats all on George. 

I agree, but it seems to me that most people who discuss this phenomenon appear to do the opposite: they blame Mr. Martin for not writing faster, as if the abomination were his fault and not the fault of the people working on it.

The showrunners and writers consistently demonstrated that they were willing to do what they would and write according to their own biases and superficial interpretations of the text, even when they most closely aligned with the source material during Season 1, and increasingly so as the show continued. No one was competently adapted even in the first season; all the characters were missing key aspects of characterization ("Promise me, Ned" and Cat's political acumen are great examples), were rewritten to be more or less competent and more or less moral according to the showrunners' biases (Poor Doomed Ned being stupidly obsessed with honor and out of his depth, rather than a reluctantly competent Ned being driven by love and a desire not to see children harmed due to his trauma from the Targaryen children; Saint Tyrion [possibly the biggest snob in the books] instead of the smallfolk Donal Noye lecturing Jon on class privilege, one scene after name-dropping his sister the Queen, mind you; Saint Tyrion bemoaning the disproportionately emphasized stupidity of his capture and easily outsmarting that Temperamental Cat, instead of Cat calmly outwitting the former at every turn and making a difficult snap decision that reasonably seemed best to her given the circumstances; etc.), and/or bore virtually no resemblance to their book analogues to begin with (Sansa is probably the best example of someone who was doomed from the start in the adaptation). This is not even getting into how Jon and Dany, arguably the primary two among the main characters, were adapted, for that would require paragraphs' worth of explanation. Furthermore, their vision of "adapting" A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons gave us Season 5; clearly new books would not have helped in the slightest at that point, especially since that very season destroyed all remaining character arcs and thematic ties to the books, while cutting or -- worse -- changing all character-driven moments, as well as many important plot points and even entire plots. 

Regarding Mr. Martin selling the rights to the adaptation to Messrs. Benioff and Weiss, I do agree that he should have chosen more carefully and better ensured that their understanding of the text was profound during their pitch meeting. We can now readily conclude that their understanding of the books was quite superficial, best illustrated through their takes on characters that require a lot of work to understand such as Sansa and Stannis, and that they probably didn't even read AFfC and ADwD at all. I tend to believe Mr. Martin was not aware how deep the discourse delves into the books in some parts of the fandom, and especially that R+L=J was and is readily found on fan sites -- especially this one! -- and did not necessarily reflect on the respective knowledge of Messrs. Benioff and Weiss. I think @kissdbyfire has put it best through example: most of us careful book readers knew long ago that poor Shireen is likely to be burned and rather deliberated upon who would be responsible, while the showrunners outright admitted that the idea came as a shock to them.

I personally believe that unfinished works should never be adapted, but given that GRRM made the decision to sell the rights to D&D, I do not think it is fair to attribute any additional blame to GRRM for what happened. The showrunners did not appreciably change over the years; all the signs were there on the show from the very beginning, and the cracks in the plaster grew ever wider as the scaffolding of A Song of Ice and Fire continued to fall away from Game of Thrones.

(I am just replying to your point in the post, hence the quote; I am not vehemently disagreeing with you. I apologize if it seemed otherwise. :P)

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8 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

I agree, but it seems to me that most people who discuss this phenomenon appear to do the opposite: they blame Mr. Martin for not writing faster, as if the abomination were his fault and not the fault of the people working on it.

The showrunners and writers consistently demonstrated that they were willing to do what they would and write according to their own biases and superficial interpretations of the text, even when they most closely aligned with the source material during Season 1, and increasingly so as the show continued. No one was competently adapted even in the first season; all the characters were missing key aspects of characterization ("Promise me, Ned" and Cat's political acumen are great examples), were rewritten to be more or less competent and more or less moral according to the showrunners' biases (Poor Doomed Ned being stupidly obsessed with honor and out of his depth, rather than a reluctantly competent Ned being driven by love and a desire not to see children harmed due to his trauma from the Targaryen children; Saint Tyrion [possibly the biggest snob in the books] instead of the smallfolk Donal Noye lecturing Jon on class privilege, one scene after name-dropping his sister the Queen, mind you; Saint Tyrion bemoaning the disproportionately emphasized stupidity of his capture and easily outsmarting that Temperamental Cat, instead of Cat calmly outwitting the former at every turn and making a difficult snap decision that reasonably seemed best to her given the circumstances; etc.), and/or bore virtually no resemblance to their book analogues to begin with (Sansa is probably the best example of someone who was doomed from the start in the adaptation). This is not even getting into how Jon and Dany, arguably the primary two among the main characters, were adapted, for that would require paragraphs' worth of explanation. Furthermore, their vision of "adapting" A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons gave us Season 5; clearly new books would not have helped in the slightest at that point, especially since that very season destroyed all remaining character arcs and thematic ties to the books, while cutting or -- worse -- changing all character-driven moments, as well as many important plot points and even entire plots. 

Regarding Mr. Martin selling the rights to the adaptation to Messrs. Benioff and Weiss, I do agree that he should have chosen more carefully and better ensured that their understanding of the text was profound during their pitch meeting. We can now readily conclude that their understanding of the books was quite superficial, best illustrated through their takes on characters that require a lot of work to understand such as Sansa and Stannis, and that they probably didn't even read AFfC and ADwD at all. I tend to believe Mr. Martin was not aware how deep the discourse delves into the books in some parts of the fandom, and especially that R+L=J was and is readily found on fan sites -- especially this one! -- and did not necessarily reflect on the respective knowledge of Messrs. Benioff and Weiss. I think @kissdbyfire has put it best through example: most of us careful book readers knew long ago that poor Shireen is likely to be burned and rather deliberated upon who would be responsible, while the showrunners outright admitted that the idea came as a shock to them.

I personally believe that unfinished works should never be adapted, but given that GRRM made the decision to sell the rights to D&D, I do not think it is fair to attribute any additional blame to GRRM for what happened. The showrunners did not appreciably change over the years; all the signs were there on the show from the very beginning, and the cracks in the plaster grew ever wider as the scaffolding of A Song of Ice and Fire continued to fall away from Game of Thrones.

(I am just replying to your point in the post, hence the quote; I am not vehemently disagreeing with you. I apologize if it seemed otherwise. :P)

Yes I do blame him.  First, he is the one who was bamboozled by the D's, elsewise they would never have come within 500 miles of such a project.  I don't give a huge amount of blame as I feel Benioff is a worldclass banboozler, since he did the same with HBO.

Yes, I enthusiastically blame him for not writing faster.  No one made him sell out before the series was finished, once he did, it was incumbent upon him to keep his promise to his fans that the show would not outpace the books.  He failed.

And while it isn't a 'fact' it is highly probable that if the Ds had all the books to work from the last half of the show would have been much, much better and the ending almost surely would not have totally sucked.  It is true they are hacks and that they began hacking up the books from the first season with stupid and pointless changes.  It is also true that the show was very good while they still had the books as their blueprint and it only began to seriously falter and go off the rails when they got to the point they needed the final books to understand the rest of the story.  

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