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Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!


The Fattest Leech

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Was the show “better” just b/c they had the books, or b/c Martin was more closely involved? Also worthy of mention is the fact that, despite not having the books, the Ds had Martin himself. 

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again... good writers would have been able to come up w/ a decent and coherent story, even w/o the books and w/o access to the author. 

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11 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

It is also true that the show was very good while they still had the books as their blueprint and it only began to seriously falter and go off the rails when they got to the point they needed the final books to understand the rest of the story.  

I do not agree with this, and as such, I cannot agree with your conclusion.

Season 1 was indeed very good, even if there were many pointless and detrimental changes. Seasons 2 and 3 were very inconsistent, with rather low low points and rather high high points relative to Season 1; for instance, Season 2 has "Blackwater", which I would deem by far the best episode of the show (I wonder who wrote it?), but also the entirety of whatever the Qarth storyline was supposed to be. Season 4 was itself the shark jump throughout, culminating irrecoverably in "The Children". Certainly, there were some very good scenes, some that were even earned, but they were the exception to rule of increasing mediocrity and a downward spiral of characterization and organic plot development. I would say the show was consistently watchable in these seasons; not coincidentally, Mr. Martin also did what little he had the power to do in these years, even writing one episode per season. 

Seasons 5 through 8 had absolutely nothing redeeming them on a narrative level. There was not a single moment, not even a single line, that was well-written in itself. All the moments that could have been good were undermined by the poor setup and/or resolution associated with them, and by the offensive implications involved. All the "good" lines were either mangled book dialogue that was nonsensical in the context of how the show presented it, or else trailer lines that might have sounded cool but had no substance whatsoever.

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2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Was the show “better” just b/c they had the books, or b/c Martin was more closely involved? Also worthy of mention is the fact that, despite not having the books, the Ds had Martin himself. 

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again... good writers would have been able to come up w/ a decent and coherent story, even w/o the books and w/o access to the author. 

I suspect the truth is that the show was better because the 1st 3 books were better, but if they had all the series then they would have at least had the superficial plot progression and the GRRM ending, and they could have read how it was intended to hit the audience.  We saw that they cannot create their own plots AT ALL, so just on this point, the back half of the show would have been much improved.  We saw that they don't understand the characters in any depth, and without the author's hand to guide them, they went with their own viewpoint, e.g. Jon is dumb, honor is dumb, revenge is sweet, etc.

Sure, good writers would have been able to come up with a decent story, good showrunners might have hired better writers or more writers or more continuity people to improve the product.  But, I don't see how it can be reasonably debated that having the full series can only have improved the show. 

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1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

I suspect the truth is that the show was better because the 1st 3 books were better, but if they had all the series then they would have at least had the superficial plot progression and the GRRM ending, and they could have read how it was intended to hit the audience.  We saw that they cannot create their own plots AT ALL, so just on this point, the back half of the show would have been much improved.  We saw that they don't understand the characters in any depth, and without the author's hand to guide them, they went with their own viewpoint, e.g. Jon is dumb, honor is dumb, revenge is sweet, etc.

Sure, good writers would have been able to come up with a decent story, good showrunners might have hired better writers or more writers or more continuity people to improve the product.  But, I don't see how it can be reasonably debated that having the full series can only have improved the show. 

What's weird is that I've read fan fictions for the show that are far better written than the stuff that D & D came up with. 

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The first three books being better is entirely subjective. A Storm of Swords is probably my favorite book overall in the series thus far, but A Feast for Crows is my second-favorite.

Also, there is an important distinction in that even the worst of the books -- whichever one might consider the worst -- is many orders of magnitude better than the best season of the show -- whichever one might consider the best -- to most people who perused both.

 

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

What's weird is that I've read fan fictions for the show that are far better written than the stuff that D & D came up with. 

That is only logical; Game of Thrones could be correctly labeled fan fiction, if not for the fact that D&D are not fans.

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2 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

  

That is only logical; Game of Thrones was fan fiction, save for the fact that D&D were not fans.

It became very bad fan fiction. 

I've read stuff where the plotting is good, the characterisation is plausible and well-developed, and in which surprises are actually built up over the course of several chapters - and these are people doing it for free.

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13 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

The first three books being better is entirely subjective. A Storm of Swords is probably my favorite book overall in the series thus far, but A Feast for Crows is my second-favorite.

Also, there is an important distinction in that even the worst of the books -- whichever one might consider the worst -- is many orders of magnitude better than the best season of the show -- whichever one might consider the best, to most people who perused both.

Agreed. The writing was just plain terrible. They sort of transcribed plot points in season 1, and yet made so many stupid changes to this, the foundation of the story, and they never did recover from their mistakes.

They clearly didn't understand the story, and the writing lacked maturity, insight, and depth, not to mention artistry and skill. Then in season 2, they went in their own direction, even while they had books.

It was up to them, taking this on, to tell a good story. And they failed. Resoundingly.

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2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I suspect the truth is that the show was better because the 1st 3 books were better, but if they had all the series then they would have at least had the superficial plot progression and the GRRM ending, and they could have read how it was intended to hit the audience.  We saw that they cannot create their own plots AT ALL, so just on this point, the back half of the show would have been much improved.  We saw that they don't understand the characters in any depth, and without the author's hand to guide them, they went with their own viewpoint, e.g. Jon is dumb, honor is dumb, revenge is sweet, etc.

Sure, good writers would have been able to come up with a decent story, good showrunners might have hired better writers or more writers or more continuity people to improve the product.  But, I don't see how it can be reasonably debated that having the full series can only have improved the show. 

I agree, to an extent. I think you’re right when you say that the show would have been less of a train wreck if the Ds had all the books. But the point (for me) is, how much better? Because seriously, virtually anything would have been better than what we got. So, yeah, it would have been better, but my guess is, only marginally. I’m one of those people who don’t think much of series 2, 3, and 4, and they had the books for those. 
I think the main issue is indeed the fact that Benioff and Weiss can’t write, full stop. But to make matters much, much worse, they seem to think that they can, and better than the actual author of this particular story. They don’t listen to criticism; their tone, when they address it, is one of mockery. All the insane stories that we’ve heard/read over the years about how they managed things - from discouraging actors to even mention the source material, to giving the finger to audiences/readers, to dismissing any type of question the fans/crew/actors might have - are extremely telling. And again, they could have gone to Martin at any point, they could have asked him anything. But I don’t think they really wanted to... they thought they knew better, they thought they were better writers. That’s why they made a number of dumb decision and ended up shooting themselves in the foot. 
And IMO all of that is on them, and no one else. 

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7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

What's weird is that I've read fan fictions for the show that are far better written than the stuff that D & D came up with. 

Absolutely.  The show apologists who attempted to make sense of the many huge plot holes, dangling plot threads and 360 character changes almost always paid more attention to detail than the show did.   This is exactly why I had hoped that GRRM and the Ds would have burried the hatchet and gotten over the rift that I speculate existed for the good of the show.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I agree, to an extent. I think you’re right when you say that the show would have been less of a train wreck if the Ds had all the books. But the point (for me) is, how much better? Because seriously, virtually anything would have been better than what we got. So, yeah, it would have been better, but my guess is, only marginally. I’m one of those people who don’t think much of series 2, 3, and 4, and they had the books for those. 
I think the main issue is indeed the fact that Benioff and Weiss can’t write, full stop. But to make matters much, much worse, they seem to think that they can, and better than the actual author of this particular story. They don’t listen to criticism; their tone, when they address it, is one of mockery. All the insane stories that we’ve heard/read over the years about how they managed things - from discouraging actors to even mention the source material, to giving the finger to audiences/readers, to dismissing any type of question the fans/crew/actors might have - are extremely telling. And again, they could have gone to Martin at any point, they could have asked him anything. But I don’t think they really wanted to... they thought they knew better, they thought they were better writers. That’s why they made a number of dumb decision and ended up shooting themselves in the foot. 
And IMO all of that is on them, and no one else. 

I think 1-4 are very good, with the caveat that by 4 the plot had gotten shaky due to stupid add-ons, but there is much great stuff in it.  Even rewatching the parts of 5 & 6 that I can stand, there is still much good there, though by 5 the plotting no longer made any sense.  The last two seasons are the opposite, 7 is almost total complete inane crap with a handful of decent scenes, season 8 doesn't even have that. 

I agree they thought they knew better, and why shouldn't they?  The world, the critics and the audience ignored the flaws and gave them unequivocal praise until literally the very end of the show, when no rabbit came out of the hat full of s**.

I don't agree that having all the books would have only been a marginal improvement, because with the books all they have to do is transfer to the screen, like they did in 1-4, the further they got from a full blueprint the worse the show became, and when they went all the way past any book stuff it was full on garbage. 

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8 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Whether he suffers at the hands of his brother or his brother's animated corpse, the message is that you can never escape past abuse, which is show territory.  Many reviews said the same thing, it's a terrible message.

Thematically, it would be more interesting and profound for someone else to do it. GRRM's style is an intricate interweaving of characters and motivations. Like the one you bring up, the Queen of Thorns killing Joffrey.

Now, that is something Benioff/Weiss would never have come up with, because it's not obvious she will be the one to do it from the start, and it's very layered, the build-up towards that happening. That is a GRRM style plot.

Here's one (there are lots of good reviews here):

Loser: Cleganebowl

After years upon years of hype, Cleganebowl aimed for the epic while feeling utterly inconsequential, which is maybe a great subtweet of “The Bells” as a whole. It took place on a crumbling staircase (cool), as a dragon periodically flew overhead (cool), and as we looked upon the zombified remains of Gregor Clegane (COOL!).

But as it was happening, I realized I had absolutely no emotional investment in what was unfolding, beyond having a vague idea that I was sad the Hound couldn’t escape his own cycles of abuse and trauma. It played out in the most perfunctory fashion possible, though I’m pretty sure it would have sounded so much cooler if scored by the Doof Warrior from Mad Max: Fury Road.

Loser: the breaking of cycles

Much of Game of Thrones, thematically, has been about breaking destructive cycles — whether political cycles, cycles of violence, or cycles of oppression... (For more on this idea, check out Twitter user @chachch_changes’ thread on Cleganebowl.) So some portion of the [show] ending will be at least somewhat hopeful about the possibility of breaking these cycles, right?

Nah. That turns out to mostly not be the case, and it turns out to not be the case in the most bitter and dark way possible, as Daenerys succumbs to what amounts to a family curse, the Hound plunges into battle against the Mountain, and Jaime returns to Cersei after seeming to swear her off multiple times previously.

https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/5/13/18617316/game-of-thrones-season-8-episode-5-recap-the-bells-winners-losers

I genuinely think that they planned for Cersei and Jaime to die in each other's arms as far back as Season 5, since the line in Cersei's prophecy about being killed by the Valonqar is left out and Jaime's line about dying in the arms of the woman he loves.

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6 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I agree they thought they knew better, and why shouldn't they?  The world, the critics and the audience ignored the flaws and gave them unequivocal praise until literally the very end of the show, when no rabbit came out of the hat full of s**.
 

I agree w/ this. And I would like to see all the media outlets and such that were praising previous series to the high heavens and then said, practically unanimously, that s8 was shite do a mea culpa. Not that it would have made much of a difference, but who knows there had been more any criticism, maybe someone would have done something; HBO, even, if not the Ds. 

 

6 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I don't agree that having all the books would have only been a marginal improvement, because with the books all they have to do is transfer to the screen, like they did in 1-4, the further they got from a full blueprint the worse the show became, and when they went all the way past any book stuff it was full on garbage. 

Here we disagree. I think b/c I really don’t like s 2, 3 & 4. It’s not the same level of disgust brought on by s5 and s8 (didn’t watch 6 & 7 except for a few scenes) but I really, really dislike 2, 3 & 4. And even s1, which was very good despite numerous red flags and idiotic stuff, I don’t feel like watching. At all. Ever. :ack:

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8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I agree w/ this. And I would like to see all the media outlets and such that were praising previous series to the high heavens and then said, practically unanimously, that s8 was shite do a mea culpa. Not that it would have made much of a difference, but who knows there had been more any criticism, maybe someone would have done something; HBO, even, if not the Ds. 

 

Here we disagree. I think b/c I really don’t like s 2, 3 & 4. It’s not the same level of disgust brought on by s5 and s8 (didn’t watch 6 & 7 except for a few scenes) but I really, really dislike 2, 3 & 4. And even s1, which was very good despite numerous red flags and idiotic stuff, I don’t feel like watching. At all. Ever. :ack:

I've always been in the minority as I liked season 2, it isn't as if Book Qarth was a standout in logic or story.  I deeply disliked the way they handled the North story in season 3, but when I finally rewatched it, aside from "Talisa" and some other weaknesses, it was overall very good.  I've always said that 4 had highs and lows, but more highs.  The show took a huge nosedive in quality from 5 onward and another deep dive at 7 and a final dive to the bottom at 8. But it was coasting from season 5 onward on the goodwill it accrued from 1-4.

 

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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

What's weird is that I've read fan fictions for the show that are far better written than the stuff that D & D came up with. 

I've seen several rewrites either of the entire show (mostly 5-8) or season 8, and they're all without exception better than the show itself.

There was no writers' room and there were no professional writers (at least in the last several seasons). Incidentally, if I'm not mistaken, Martin actually IS a professional TV or film writer, albeit a retired one. Probably everyone has seen or heard of the Austin Film Festival where the Ds revealed both that they had no experieence AND that they thought they were better qualified than anyone else (in response to a question why they didn't hire writers of colour).

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1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Was the show “better” just b/c they had the books, or b/c Martin was more closely involved? Also worthy of mention is the fact that, despite not having the books, the Ds had Martin himself. 

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again... good writers would have been able to come up w/ a decent and coherent story, even w/o the books and w/o access to the author. 

Yeah, they chose to distance themselves from Martin.  I have no doubt that he would have been more involved if they wanted him to be.  I'm very tempted to believe the only reason the first three seasons were as close as they were to the books was because they couldn't deviate too much and still progress to bringing the Red Wedding to TV (which, of course, is really all they wanted to do).

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6 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

Yeah, they chose to distance themselves from Martin.  I have no doubt that he would have been more involved if they wanted him to be.  I'm very tempted to believe the only reason the first three seasons were as close as they were to the books was because they couldn't deviate too much and still progress to bringing the Red Wedding to TV (which, of course, is really all they wanted to do).

Yeah, the freaking Red Wedding that they were soooooooooo excited about, sooooooooo looking forward to doing, and then they of course ruin everything. Why, oh why did you remind me of that? Talisa, yikes, and the in uterus stabbing of her foetus! :ack: :bang:

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22 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, the freaking Red Wedding that they were soooooooooo excited about, sooooooooo looking forward to doing, and then they of course ruin everything. Why, oh why did you remind me of that? Talisa, yikes, and the in uterus stabbing of her foetus! :ack: :bang:

Why did you not appreciate the tasteful and not even remotely gratuitous fetus-stabbing of a pregnant woman who was brought to the wedding, possibly in order to insult the Freys and definitely in order to tie up loose ends? Do you not realize how much a time-traveling feminist field nurse who sasses kings while roaming battlefields unchaperoned and wears peasant's clothing even as a queen adds to the story? She doesn't like to "waste [her] years planning dances and masquerades," not as though dances, masquerades, balls, tourneys, feasts, parties, and the like have historically been extremely significant exercises of power, demonstrations of wealth and status, the main vehicle for image maintenance and political statements, and so forth -- almost as if this stuff was exceedingly important, and her anachronistically implicit misogyny ("not like other girls") had no place on the show. What about Robb marrying because he was horny and all men have sexually active love lives, instead of in a lamentable attempt to save Jeyne Westerling's honor by sacrificing his own? Why not disregard the fact that Cat went to her death -- but not being at peace afterwards, tragically -- effectively thinking that all of her children were dead? Indeed, why should we note that Cat was a background character on the show in the first place? Do you not understand that careful worldbuilding and foreshadowing is pointless, and the Red Wedding was just a random evil thing that happened because everything sucks? Why do you not love this?

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@Many-Faced Votary, I was alternating between laughing and crying while reading your post. Ultimately, though, the whole thing is just so sad, really. 
You also brought back long scenes of letter writing and buttocks walking around. Did that happen? And maybe the scenes weren’t that long, and it only felt that way? Yikes. 

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43 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, the freaking Red Wedding that they were soooooooooo excited about, sooooooooo looking forward to doing, and then they of course ruin everything. Why, oh why did you remind me of that? Talisa, yikes, and the in uterus stabbing of her foetus! :ack: :bang:

Sorry!  I do apologize for adding any more angst to your life (no one needs any more of that these days).  And, yes, as @Many-Faced Votary describes, I'm sure in their minds they feel they actually improved on the Red Wedding :stillsick:

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@kissdbyfire

The letter-writing did indeed occur, and the camera did spend a lot of time focusing on what amounted to nothing at all! This is the point at which the excuses the audience made for the terrible writing, by spending much more time thinking about things than the writers cared to, became so common: so-called "honeypotting," named after the Lannister-Honeypot theory. The idea was that Talisa was a spy working for Tywin who intentionally attracted Robb's attentions in order to get him to break his marriage pact, who reported the Northern army's movements to the Lannisters, and so forth. Naturally, this was not the case, not that the show would have been more than marginally coherent if it were true -- although still much better than the incoherence we see on the screen without these honeypots.

I'm not sure if I recall buttocks precisely in this storyline, but it has been a while. I imagine you are referring to female nudity, so it probably happened very often! Male nudity started to occur more often as the show went on as well, although it was almost never kept in clear focus of the camera, unlike its analogue; it was rarely presented in a titillating fashion, unlike the countless clearly sexual close-ups of attractive women; and male shirtlessness was most often used as a shortcut to demonstrate poverty in Essos, in contrast to the physically perfect women. (There was absolutely some fanservice for the male-attracted audience, such as Jason Momoa's close-ups, but only a fraction as common as the completely unnecessary and illogical fanservice for the female-attracted audience, complete with sexposition and Carice Van Houten inexplicably popping out her breasts fifty times.)

I don't believe the scenes were that long, but they were inherently too long, if that makes sense. :P

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