Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

[Cas Stark]

55 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Why did you not appreciate the tasteful and not even remotely gratuitous fetus-stabbing of a pregnant woman who was brought to the wedding, possibly in order to insult the Freys and definitely in order to tie up loose ends? Do you not realize how much a time-traveling feminist field nurse who sasses kings while roaming battlefields unchaperoned and wears peasant's clothing even as a queen adds to the story? She doesn't like to "waste [her] years planning dances and masquerades," not as though dances, masquerades, balls, tourneys, feasts, parties, and the like have historically been extremely significant exercises of power, demonstrations of wealth and status, the main vehicle for image maintenance and political statements, and so forth -- almost as if this stuff was exceedingly important, and her anachronistically implicit misogyny ("not like other girls") had no place on the show. What about Robb marrying because he was horny and all men have sexually active love lives, instead of in a lamentable attempt to save Jeyne Westerling's honor by sacrificing his own? Why not disregard the fact that Cat went to her death -- but not being at peace afterwards, tragically -- effectively thinking that all of her children were dead? Indeed, why should we note that Cat was a background character on the show in the first place? Do you not understand that careful worldbuilding and foreshadowing is pointless, and the Red Wedding was just a random evil thing that happened because everything sucks? Why do you not love this?

Don't forget either that the Queen in the North did not know where Winterfell was right up until the end.  LOL.  

 

[Prince of the North]

26 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Don't forget either that the Queen in the North did not know where Winterfell was right up until the end.  LOL.  

 

Well, in her defense, why should anyone need to actually know where someplace is when they can just teleport there

[SeanF]

7 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I've always been in the minority as I liked season 2, it isn't as if Book Qarth was a standout in logic or story.  I deeply disliked the way they handled the North story in season 3, but when I finally rewatched it, aside from "Talisa" and some other weaknesses, it was overall very good.  I've always said that 4 had highs and lows, but more highs.  The show took a huge nosedive in quality from 5 onward and another deep dive at 7 and a final dive to the bottom at 8. But it was coasting from season 5 onward on the goodwill it accrued from 1-4.

 

I liked Season 2, mostly, but not Qarth.  Apart from the House of the Undying Chapter, Dany's story in Qarth in books is not especially gripping, but in hindsight, Qarth displays everything the show runners would get wrong with the series as a whole.

1. Pointless conflict - between the Spice King and Daenerys.  Negotiation and diplomacy in the books, replaced with threats and bluster in the show.

2. Surprise, with no groundwork laid for it - Pyat Pree and Xaro killing the leaders of Qarth, murdering the Dothraki, stealing the dragons

3. An important element from the book is introduced, before it leads nowhere - Qaithe

4. Unexplained shifts in character - Doreah goes from having almost a romantic relationship with Daenerys to betraying her, for ......reasons.

5. Leaps in logic - Xaro has taken control of Qarth, but somehow, Dany and her men are able to slip into his bedroom and take him and Doreah prisoner. The Dothraki, murdered in one episode, regenerate at the end.

[Ghostlydragon]

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

I liked Season 2, mostly, but not Qarth.  Apart from the House of the Undying Chapter, Dany's story in Qarth in books is not especially gripping, but in hindsight, Qarth displays everything the show runners would get wrong with the series as a whole.

1. Pointless conflict - between the Spice King and Daenerys.  Negotiation and diplomacy in the books, replaced with threats and bluster in the show.

2. Surprise, with no groundwork laid for it - Pyat Pree and Xaro killing the leaders of Qarth, murdering the Dothraki, stealing the dragons

3. An important element from the book is introduced, before it leads nowhere - Qaithe

4. Unexplained shifts in character - Doreah goes from having almost a romantic relationship with Daenerys to betraying her, for ......reasons.

5. Leaps in logic - Xaro has taken control of Qarth, but somehow, Dany and her men are able to slip into his bedroom and take him and Doreah prisoner. The Dothraki, murdered in one episode, regenerate at the end.

And she murdered Irri in a deleted scene. So pointless. I guess the lesson was that all women are power hungry and will do anything for wealth and fame and will happily betray their real friends and family to get what they want.

[The Dragon Demands]

yeah

[Le Cygne]

16 hours ago, SeanF said:

I liked Season 2, mostly, but not Qarth.  Apart from the House of the Undying Chapter, Dany's story in Qarth in books is not especially gripping, but in hindsight, Qarth displays everything the show runners would get wrong with the series as a whole.

1. Pointless conflict - between the Spice King and Daenerys.  Negotiation and diplomacy in the books, replaced with threats and bluster in the show.

2. Surprise, with no groundwork laid for it - Pyat Pree and Xaro killing the leaders of Qarth, murdering the Dothraki, stealing the dragons

3. An important element from the book is introduced, before it leads nowhere - Qaithe

4. Unexplained shifts in character - Doreah goes from having almost a romantic relationship with Daenerys to betraying her, for ......reasons.

5. Leaps in logic - Xaro has taken control of Qarth, but somehow, Dany and her men are able to slip into his bedroom and take him and Doreah prisoner. The Dothraki, murdered in one episode, regenerate at the end.

Don't forget they killed Dany's horse, the Silver, just for the hell of it. That's so telling. Something that meant so much to Dany and was such a gift from the source material to add depth to her and her story. Such callous disregard, and such crappy writing. A child would know how wasteful that was. They tossed it all aside for momentary hey, look at an actor emote, then blink and it's gone.

Here's GRRM commenting on the meaning of the horse, all they had to do was listen to him, he was right there (and yeah, they changed the wedding night, which screwed her story over right from the start, and they did it to the other women in the show the very first season, too, nothing is ever the same when you take these big moments and do a 180 on them or wipe them out).

"Her horse leaps over the fire pit, and this endears her to Drogo, he admires her courage... and it was sort of a semi-important kind of moment there...

"What happens later in the books is Drogo and Dany ride out to to consummate their marriage... You have Dany and Drogo riding out, and they find this little secluded spot, there's a stream. And Drogo doesn't speak any English, so they're talking to each other, and she says is no the only word you know. And they undress, and there's a sex scene which was pretty sexy and fairly romantic."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1863&v=PgEBuO1H_-I

[Ghostlydragon]

13 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Don't forget they killed Dany's horse, the Silver, just for the hell of it. That's so telling. Something that meant so much to Dany and was such a gift from the source material to add depth to her and her story. Such callous disregard, and such crappy writing. A child would know how wasteful that was. They tossed it all aside for momentary hey, look at an actor emote, then blink and it's gone.

Here's GRRM commenting on the meaning of the horse, all they had to do was listen to him, he was right there (and yeah, they changed the wedding night, which screwed her story over right from the start, and they did it to the other women in the show the very first season, too, nothing is ever the same when you take these big moments and do a 180 on them or wipe them out).

"Her horse leaps over the fire pit, and this endears her to Drogo, he admires her courage... and it was sort of a semi-important kind of moment there...

"What happens later in the books is Drogo and Dany ride out to to consummate their marriage... You have Dany and Drogo riding out, and they find this little secluded spot, there's a stream. And Drogo doesn't speak any English, so they're talking to each other, and she says is no the only word you know. And they undress, and there's a sex scene which was pretty sexy and fairly romantic."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1863&v=PgEBuO1H_-I

Whenever anyone gives me a funny look when I tell them the problems were there at the very start, I always use that wedding night scene as the show managed to turn Drogo into a terrifying monster when the book shows that despite his strength and appearance, he is actually a kind man who won't hurt his wife. Why D&D changed it I'll never know.

[Many-Faced Votary]

Drogo might have been kind for a khal -- almost unbelievably so, considering he only had one wife and did not share her, listened to her and seemed to respect her, often formalized commands for what she desired (since a khaleesi has no real power), and so forth -- but he most certainly was not a kind person. I do imagine much of this was his upbringing rather than his nature, precisely because he was so unusual for how khals are described. Saliently, he did indeed rape Daenerys many times. The exception in the early weeks/months was the wedding night, and as we understand consent today, we should know that Dany did not have a real choice in the matter. The importance of this moment was that she exercised what little control she had over her body in the moment and accepted Drogo's touch due to his unexpected kindness, not that she had the ability to refuse and chose not to. This is how the adaptation failed in this regard; it did not care about what minimal control she did have, and did not properly demonstrate that she was repeatedly and brutally raped rather than during the wedding night.

Dany's perspective of Drogo can probably be described as Stockholm syndrome. Given him, her abusive brother Viserys, and the creep Jorah, her views on loves are very abnormal. Hopefully, she will continue to discover what love should look like, be it platonic or romantic. The show did romanticize the relationship a bit, but chiefly, I imagine Mr. Jason Momoa's charm and looks are to blame for the general rose-tinted understanding of Drogo.

[Angel Eyes]

31 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Drogo might have been kind for a khal -- almost unbelievably so, considering he only had one wife and did not share her, listened to her and seemed to respect her, often formalized commands for what she desired (since a khaleesi has no real power), and so forth -- but he most certainly was not a kind person. I do imagine much of this was his upbringing rather than his nature, precisely because he was so unusual for how khals are described. Saliently, he did indeed rape Daenerys many times. The exception in the early weeks/months was the wedding night, and as we understand consent today, we should know that Dany did not have a real choice in the matter. The importance of this moment was that she exercised what little control she had over her body in the moment and accepted Drogo's touch due to his unexpected kindness, not that she had the ability to refuse and chose not to. This is how the adaptation failed in this regard; it did not care about what minimal control she did have, and did not properly demonstrate that she was repeatedly and brutally raped rather than during the wedding night.

Dany's perspective of Drogo can probably be described as Stockholm syndrome. Given him, her abusive brother Viserys, and the creep Jorah, her views on loves are very abnormal. Hopefully, she will continue to discover what love should look like, be it platonic or romantic. The show did romanticize the relationship a bit, but chiefly, I imagine Mr. Jason Momoa's charm and looks are to blame for the general rose-tinted understanding of Drogo.

Which is funny because Momoa is less rose-tinted than in the books; it's pretty clear in that last scene in the pilot that Daenerys is uncomfortable and he does nothing to ease that. And Daenerys still doesn't quite look on that time fondly, as evidenced by her speech to Jon in Season 7, Episode 3.

[Angel Eyes]

On 7/21/2020 at 6:58 AM, Ghostlydragon said:

And she murdered Irri in a deleted scene. So pointless. I guess the lesson was that all women are power hungry and will do anything for wealth and fame and will happily betray their real friends and family to get what they want.

Didn't we already know that with Cersei?

[SeanF]

17 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Drogo might have been kind for a khal -- almost unbelievably so, considering he only had one wife and did not share her, listened to her and seemed to respect her, often formalized commands for what she desired (since a khaleesi has no real power), and so forth -- but he most certainly was not a kind person. I do imagine much of this was his upbringing rather than his nature, precisely because he was so unusual for how khals are described. Saliently, he did indeed rape Daenerys many times. The exception in the early weeks/months was the wedding night, and as we understand consent today, we should know that Dany did not have a real choice in the matter. The importance of this moment was that she exercised what little control she had over her body in the moment and accepted Drogo's touch due to his unexpected kindness, not that she had the ability to refuse and chose not to. This is how the adaptation failed in this regard; it did not care about what minimal control she did have, and did not properly demonstrate that she was repeatedly and brutally raped rather than during the wedding night.

Dany's perspective of Drogo can probably be described as Stockholm syndrome. Given him, her abusive brother Viserys, and the creep Jorah, her views on loves are very abnormal. Hopefully, she will continue to discover what love should look like, be it platonic or romantic. The show did romanticize the relationship a bit, but chiefly, I imagine Mr. Jason Momoa's charm and looks are to blame for the general rose-tinted understanding of Drogo.

I would view Daenerys as being in essence, a privileged concubine, who has absolutely no choice whether or not to  to join the Khalasar, or to consent to sex, but finds herself with an unusually kind master.   The master is remarkably good by the lights of his society, but the system is a horrible one.  Most Dothraki wives seem to have the status of chattels, more or less, even if some of their husbands are kind to them (as would likely be the case). 

Psychologists generally reject the idea of Stockholm syndrome, now.  But, a young girl who expects violence and cruelty, and has been taught from a young age that she is a "slut" and a "whore", and is instead, treated with relative kindness, might well view her situation in an unrealistically rose-tinted light. 

I don't think that either Daenerys or Drogo would have considered that what took place between them at any stage was rape.  The idea that there can be marital rape is unknown in either Westerosi or Dothraki society (perhaps the Dornish do have such a concept).  Given the nature of her world, it's unlikely that Daenerys could ever unlearn everything she's ever been taught about the status of women in that world.  We're probably still hundreds of years away from any view that a married woman could view a husband as an equal, rather than her lord and master.  

[ThotKiller]

On 7/14/2020 at 7:19 PM, The Dragon Demands said:

Not going to lie, I'm falling into a deep depression over the lack of news attention to this.  Elio never gave his views on it at all.  Mainstream news didn't bother to report on it.  Vanity Fair's Joanna Robinson flat out said that I made it up -- not that I "misinterpreted" the script text, but some vague accusation that "I read the scripts, it doesn't say that, the on-screen version is the real ending!" when.....no, the WGA script is very different.

I mean, I do expect rational people to debate "well is it different ENOUGH to suggest a huge change?" etc.  But she just curtly accused in a single tweet "he made this up!" ....when....it's a public archive, anyone could contact the WGA library to confirm its veracity.

They don't want to.  The wall I'm running into, which I think we all have, are that the remaining TV show die-hards would never report on this...which makes sense....but a lot of news sites are of the mentality that "well, everyone knows the TV show was bad, it isn't news anymore, why bother reporting on it?"

….because you never DID report on it!  I'm thinking of Vulture, Variety, etc.

It's a sick world we live in where news sites only report on "good, happy" news, and after something goes bad, rather than a measured assessment or research into what went wrong, it's "I don't feel like reporting on it".  

(shrug)  Benioff is addicted to fame, sooner or later he'll try to get into the spotlight again with his Netflix deal, dragging all this up all over again.

I do hope that SDCC next week, well virtual SDCC, starts buzz going again about major franchises and that news picks up.

Here in Brazil a youtuber made a video based on your report

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ay4F4g-gMPk

[SeanF]

On 7/14/2020 at 11:19 PM, The Dragon Demands said:

Not going to lie, I'm falling into a deep depression over the lack of news attention to this.  Elio never gave his views on it at all.  Mainstream news didn't bother to report on it.  Vanity Fair's Joanna Robinson flat out said that I made it up -- not that I "misinterpreted" the script text, but some vague accusation that "I read the scripts, it doesn't say that, the on-screen version is the real ending!" when.....no, the WGA script is very different.

I mean, I do expect rational people to debate "well is it different ENOUGH to suggest a huge change?" etc.  But she just curtly accused in a single tweet "he made this up!" ....when....it's a public archive, anyone could contact the WGA library to confirm its veracity.

They don't want to.  The wall I'm running into, which I think we all have, are that the remaining TV show die-hards would never report on this...which makes sense....but a lot of news sites are of the mentality that "well, everyone knows the TV show was bad, it isn't news anymore, why bother reporting on it?"

….because you never DID report on it!  I'm thinking of Vulture, Variety, etc.

It's a sick world we live in where news sites only report on "good, happy" news, and after something goes bad, rather than a measured assessment or research into what went wrong, it's "I don't feel like reporting on it".  

(shrug)  Benioff is addicted to fame, sooner or later he'll try to get into the spotlight again with his Netflix deal, dragging all this up all over again.

I do hope that SDCC next week, well virtual SDCC, starts buzz going again about major franchises and that news picks up.

Well, you've had thousands of views and plenty of comments, and this has been widely discussed on social media.

[The Dragon Demands]

yeah

[Le Cygne]

On 7/22/2020 at 1:37 PM, SeanF said:

I would view Daenerys as being in essence, a privileged concubine, who has absolutely no choice whether or not to  to join the Khalasar, or to consent to sex, but finds herself with an unusually kind master.   The master is remarkably good by the lights of his society, but the system is a horrible one.  Most Dothraki wives seem to have the status of chattels, more or less, even if some of their husbands are kind to them (as would likely be the case). 

Psychologists generally reject the idea of Stockholm syndrome, now.  But, a young girl who expects violence and cruelty, and has been taught from a young age that she is a "slut" and a "whore", and is instead, treated with relative kindness, might well view her situation in an unrealistically rose-tinted light. 

I don't think that either Daenerys or Drogo would have considered that what took place between them at any stage was rape.  The idea that there can be marital rape is unknown in either Westerosi or Dothraki society (perhaps the Dornish do have such a concept).  Given the nature of her world, it's unlikely that Daenerys could ever unlearn everything she's ever been taught about the status of women in that world.  We're probably still hundreds of years away from any view that a married woman could view a husband as an equal, rather than her lord and master.  

Everyone is entitled to see it as they like, but by making it about that, it's not a very good story at all. And it cuts Dany out of her own story. GRRM did better than that.

GRRM said the wedding night in the book is romantic and sexy, so that invites the reader to see how he establishes this in the text. It's his story, not the reader's story.

"Her horse leaps over the fire pit, and this endears her to Drogo, he admires her courage... and it was sort of a semi-important kind of moment there...

"What happens later in the books is Drogo and Dany ride out to to consummate their marriage... You have Dany and Drogo riding out, and they find this little secluded spot, there's a stream. And Drogo doesn't speak any English, so they're talking to each other, and she says is no the only word you know. And they undress, and there's a sex scene which was pretty sexy and fairly romantic."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1863&v=PgEBuO1H_-I

It was a marriage arranged by her brother, like the marriage arranged for Catelyn by her father, but in the story that follows, it's genuine love on the parts of Dany and Catelyn for their spouses. True, Dany's brother was horrible, but there were many other marriages arranged by horrible fathers. The horrible family members set up conflict.

He repeatedly shows how Drogo is the opposite of Viserys, through the eyes of Dany. And Drogo vanquishes him when Dany herself does. This is the resolution of the conflict.

Upon a close reading, GRRM is indeed writing a love story for Dany and Drogo. Note that he made the wedding night about Dany choosing Drogo, for example, the part where she chooses to take off his bells, that's a trademark thing he does, where the consensual pair takes turns. And the scene centers on her saying YES.

Once you take a really close look at GRRM's romantic storylines, you see his style emerge.

GRRM earned the right to say it was romantic and sexy, in terms of his writing. He showed Dany's attraction before the wedding night. Another thing he does often is allude to "fear" as sexual excitement. It's the classic sexual awakening "fear" of the unknown (he explores this a la Beauty and the Beast with Sansa and the Hound).

Here he has Dany say that explicitly, looking back, and note, the emphasis of the final word, she tells us she was excited, and to downplay her excitement is to downplay Dany herself:

She remembered the night of her first wedding, when Khal Drogo had claimed her maidenhead beneath the stranger stars. She remembered how frightened she had been, and how excited.

GRRM showed Dany and Drogo evolving after the marriage. That's another thing he does, tells stories of how a man and woman evolve when they get to know each other.

As for the Silver, that's Dany choosing to embrace her new life. When she gives way to her horse, which was a gift from Drogo, and learns from her about herself, she's truly happy. The saddle sores go away, then she enjoys sex again. There's something about the good parts of the Dothraki culture she finds liberating. And Drogo learns from her, too.

GRRM uses allusions to riding as sexual and liberating, too. He uses this a lot in their story, and in others as well. It's that juxtaposition of sexual choice and life choice, that he plays upon a lot. So when she names Drogon, her spirit animal, who she also rides, after Drogo, that's a very positive connection, that is life affirming to her.

And Dany has evolved through five books, but she still loves Drogo, something GRRM takes pains to illustrate, again and again (he uses repetition to make his points):

It was Drogo who had given her the pelt she wore, the head and hide of a hrakkar, the white lion of the Dothraki sea. It was too big for her and had a musty smell, but it made her feel as if her sun-and-stars was still near her.

At any rate, this is the rants thread, and my rant is that GRRM's story, of how Dany chose Drogo, and how this empowers her as a person, was tossed out in the show. And the show routinely swapped consensual sex for rape. They did it with Sansa (they never let her make a choice of a man), and even Cersei (the sept scene).

It robs women of their characterization and it just plain ruins the story. And that's why a lot of us were very bothered that they changed the wedding night - it was hugely important to set the stage for Dany's evolution as a human being, that she chose to be with Drogo, and what this choice tells us about her as person.

The show just threw it all away. Like they threw everything away.

[Le Cygne]

On 7/23/2020 at 5:50 PM, The Dragon Demands said:

All the shit they did was ....it really feels like what they truly were: dilettante brats sent to art school by rich parents as basically day care, faking their way through classes.  The film school student who thinks "Let's put a star-wipe in every transition edit!"

Ha, this reminded me of this commercial. "The guy at the station said he's never seen so many star wipes!"

Benioff and Weiss after 10 years of expensive film school, still insisting on crap. At least Jimmy got better at it.

BTW, I never saw Pointlessbowl, the episode was so off putting.

[Count Balerion]

Righto, le Pointlessbowl. My reaction to that, even before seeing it, was mleah. That is, the basic idea didn't appeal to me. I'm not a sports fan, still less an American football fan, so whateverbowl. And one of the things I did like in later seasons is New and Improved Hound -- which is not very compatible with Clegbowl, is it? So I don't know what the Ds could have done or left undone to interest me in what I already thought was a soulless hyporama. One of them thought it was "apocalyptically beautiful", and who am I to say it wasn't?

[The Dragon Demands]

yeah

[Le Cygne]

On 7/24/2020 at 4:27 PM, Count Balerion said:

Righto, le Pointlessbowl. My reaction to that, even before seeing it, was mleah. That is, the basic idea didn't appeal to me. I'm not a sports fan, still less an American football fan, so whateverbowl. And one of the things I did like in later seasons is New and Improved Hound -- which is not very compatible with Clegbowl, is it? So I don't know what the Ds could have done or left undone to interest me in what I already thought was a soulless hyporama. One of them thought it was "apocalyptically beautiful", and who am I to say it wasn't?

Soulless hyporama is perfect!

Thank you for telling me what they said, I have been laughing all day. When they spout off about their trash, it's the gift that keeps on giving.

I think you've got to start wondering, what the hell is this plot?... Creatively it made sense to us because we wanted it to happen... This is a hardened woman making a choice... She's not her father, and she's not insane, and she's not a sadist...

Oh and here's what they said about Sandor before they changed course yet again:

He's a more thoughtful person. He's really thinking about his past in a way he never had before. He's starting to see that there's perhaps a different way of living your life.

Suddenly, killing his brother (who was dead anyway) is more important to him than his own life, even though his story was about living his life (their words).

Yet he never once tried to kill him, not when he had the perfect chance in season 1, not when he was right there in season 7, not ever. Not once in the entire series.

[Count Balerion]

Kinda forgot. They say this stuff in a kind of pompous way that will fool you, if you let it, into thinking it makes sense.

As for rewatching Hell's Bells, with or without sound, I'll have to take a pass. Once was enough. I don't doubt the editing is messy, though.