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Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!


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5 hours ago, sifth said:

I often wonder if D&D were scared to ever fully commit to characters like Tyrion and Arya. They were fan favorites, so they were afraid to have either of them do anything that was "too evil", despite both characters being very morally grey in the books.

For example Tyrion lying to Jamie about killing Joff and vowing to kill the rest of his family for what they did to Tysha and not having Tyrion take part in the rape of Tysha. They also make Tyrion's murdering of Shae pretty much self defense on the show.

With Arya, they were scared to have her kill anyone innocent, when she was part of the Facelessmen, which is why season 5, 6, 7 and 8 Arya only kills "bad guys", like Meryn Trant, The Freys, The Waif, and the Nights King.

However, I'm not sure if being a favorite of D&D is a good thing. To give examples:

  • I thought Cersei was a favorite. She should have been overruled at any point in Season 7, yet she turns the public in her favor and gets herself back on even ground with Daenerys by having Euron wipe out most of Daenerys' Westerosi allies. Then in the last season she spends almost all of her screentime staring out windows, drinking wine, staring out of windows while drinking wine, and anticlimactically gets a bunch of bricks dropped on her head. Even Lena Headey has said that she's disappointed in how she went out.
  • The Tyrells were considerably softened in the show; they're responsible for the food shortage in the books while in the show Tyrion puts the shortage squarely on Joffrey "They're starving you fool, all because of a war you started!" Mace is more of a comic relief character, Olenna is less cranky, and Margaery and her posse don't drop Sansa like a hot potato, with the Tyrells painted in a rosier light (pun intended) than their adversary Stannis (who D&D dislikes). Unfortunately that doesn't stop them from going up in green smoke.
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14 minutes ago, SeanF said:

He Martin's favourite, but also "the villain" of the tale.

I see him as Martin's Richard III.

It depends on the novel for me. Some novels don't really portray Tyrion as that evil to be honest. Don't get me wrong, he's never a saint or anything close to it. He's very much a grey character.

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11 hours ago, SeanF said:

He Martin's favourite, but also "the villain" of the tale.

I see him as Martin's Richard III.

Yeah, everyone noticed they super whitewashed Tyrion on the show, many articles mentioned it, even a director commented on it. He was their self-insert, and like them, dull.

Everyone had to praise him, all the women had to praise him, of course, at their own expense, even the sex slave begged him. He was supposedly smart and yet... so stupid.

We used to play a game, who is going to praise him next? It wasn't a long wait. But they also made the men praise him, too. Even Daario had to praise him (as if).

To add to their crimes against Sansa, they made her honor him in Bowed, Bent, and Broken. And in the end, he got to murder yet another woman who rejected him (Dany).

And he ends up effectively king. Telling Branbot what to do. Arranging chairs and setting up brothels, which is such a funny thing, so delightful for traumatized peasants.

The thing is, they tried to make him the bestest and yet, since they 1) don't know how to do this because they can't write and 2) are morally bankrupt themselves, they failed.

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2 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Yeah, everyone noticed they super whitewashed Tyrion on the show, many articles mentioned it, even a director commented on it. He was their self-insert, and like them, dull.

Everyone had to praise him, all the women had to praise him, of course, at their expense, even the sex slave begged him. He was supposedly smart and yet... so stupid.

We used to play a game, who is going to praise him next? It wasn't a long wait. But they also made the men praise him, too. Even Daario had to praise him (as if).

To add to their crimes against Sansa, they made her honor him in Bowed, Bent, and Broken. And in the end, he got to murder yet another woman who rejected him (Dany).

And he ends up effectively king. Telling Branbot what to do. Arranging chairs and setting up brothels, which is such a funny thing, so delightful for traumatized peasants.

The thing is, they tried to make him the bestest and yet, since they 1) don't know how to do this because they can't write and 2) are morally bankrupt themselves, they failed.

Going by what we saw, rather than what we were being told, Tyrion actually proved his father's judgement of him to be correct.

If you were a historian, looking at the characters dispassionately, you would conclude that no one could truly be so incompetent as Hand as Tyrion was.  You would conclude that he was actively trying to prevent Daenerys from defeating his siblings. You would note that he had advocated starving the Smallfolk of Kings Landing to death, as an alternative to attacking the city, and conclude that this was done, again, in order to save the life of his sister.  Then you would consider the lies that he told Jon during his "evil men" speech and conclude that he was just playing Jon for a fool, seeking revenge for the deaths of his siblings, revenge on a woman who rejected him, and aiming to move onwards and upwards.

 

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Yeah i was so damn mad that D&D whitewashed the characters, IMO the "Greyness" is what make ASOIAF so damn good and i knew the tv show would suck since i watched the episode 2

Why they focus on the death of lady instead of Mycah?

Why the Hound didn't throw Mycah's corpse at Ned's feet?

Why Ned didn't ask the Hound why he cut the child in half?

Why the Hound didn't laugh?

And D&D add a lot of dark scenes for no good reason why Jaime killed his cousin? WTF. He could just ask hin to fake his death:bang:

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You know for some daft reason I still find it funny that they couldn't kill the bear in season 3. This was a show that was fine with murdering men, women and children, sometimes quite a lot of them in the same episode; heck we even got a horse and wolf killed from time to time, but for some crazy reason PETA prevented them from killing a bear. I know this is a minor thing in the grand scheme of things, but it's something weird that's been on my mind as of late.

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10 hours ago, SeanF said:

Going by what we saw, rather than what we were being told, Tyrion actually proved his father's judgement of him to be correct.

If you were a historian, looking at the characters dispassionately, you would conclude that no one could truly be so incompetent as Hand as Tyrion was.  You would conclude that he was actively trying to prevent Daenerys from defeating his siblings. You would note that he had advocated starving the Smallfolk of Kings Landing to death, as an alternative to attacking the city, and conclude that this was done, again, in order to save the life of his sister.  Then you would consider the lies that he told Jon during his "evil men" speech and conclude that he was just playing Jon for a fool, seeking revenge for the deaths of his siblings, revenge on a woman who rejected him, and aiming to move onwards and upwards.

This is really interesting. We could look at the whole show that way. As many have noted, the only Shakespeare that applies is that it's a tale told by an idiot, signifying nothing.

What it really needed was someone standing to the side, as Shakespeare likes to have some of his characters do, and comment on the idiocy of the blathering fools.

"Look, he's winding up the watch of his wit; by and by it will strike."

Basically, the rants thread. Also I like what you posed, that a historian looking at the facts would look at what they actually did, because no one could be that stupid.

Diabolical Tyrion. And the evil remaining Starks (they truly were quite horrible, nearly killing members of their own family, and in the case of Jon, actually doing so).

Power hungry Sandra chose to marry family killers, psycho killer Arya blew off her family, too (she even used Gendry as a vibrator), Branbot just stood by and watched.

And Jon, the fool, murdered his long lost family, Dany, almost as soon as he found her. The historian would have to think he was brain dead. ("It is oft noted, he habitually gaped.")

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On 9/24/2020 at 4:49 PM, sifth said:

I often wonder if D&D were scared to ever fully commit to characters like Tyrion and Arya. They were fan favorites, so they were afraid to have either of them do anything that was "too evil", despite both characters being very morally grey in the books.

For example Tyrion lying to Jamie about killing Joff and vowing to kill the rest of his family for what they did to Tysha and not having Tyrion take part in the rape of Tysha. They also make Tyrion's murdering of Shae pretty much self defense on the show.

With Arya, they were scared to have her kill anyone innocent, when she was part of the Facelessmen, which is why season 5, 6, 7 and 8 Arya only kills "bad guys", like Meryn Trant, The Freys, The Waif, and the Nights King.

Tyrion seemed to be increasingly whitewashed as the seasons went by. They softened him and Cersei up a fair bit in those early seasons. In S2, for example, Tyrion does not allow Joffrey to torture the Antler Men as a distraction, and Cersei does not give the order to murder Robert's bastards. I guess they made this choice when they decided to increase the Lannister roles to be equal (and in some instances surpass) the Starks as protagonists. I believe they were 'conflicted' about doing the Tysha reveal in S4 and chose not to do it. I guess they had gotten attached to Tyrion as the moral centre of the show, and simply lacked the conviction to follow through with his dark turn. For me, that episode was when I really just began losing interest/faith in the show because of that choice (amongst others).  I had kept to the idea they were going for more shocking 'turn' dark, which would have been more ham-fisted, but would at least have gotten him to the same point. But nope. They just made him a sad alcoholic for a few episodes, and then back to the usual witty banter. 

Arya became a really annoying character. She felt like a fanservice hero, someone who had major plot-points planted on her lap without really earning or developing towards them. She may be the closest thing to a 'Mary Sue' in the show after Ramsay Snow (who really is the best example of the Villain Sue trope that I think I've ever seen in a supposedly serious show...)

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2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

This is really interesting. We could look at the whole show that way. As many have noted, the only Shakespeare that applies is that it's a tale told by an idiot, signifying nothing.

What it really needed was someone standing to the side, as Shakespeare likes to have some of his characters do, and comment on the idiocy of the blathering fools.

"Look, he's winding up the watch of his wit; by and by it will strike."

Basically, the rants thread. Also I like what you posed, that a historian looking at the facts would look at what they actually did, because no one could be that stupid.

Diabolical Tyrion. And the evil remaining Starks (they truly were quite horrible, nearly killing members of their own family, and in the case of Jon, actually doing so).

Power hungry Sandra chose to marry family killers, psycho killer Arya blew off her family, too (she even used Gendry as a vibrator), Branbot just stood by and watched.

And Jon, the fool, murdered his long lost family, Dany, almost as soon as he found her. The historian would have to think he was brain dead. ("It is oft noted, he habitually gaped.")

If Ned was looking down on them from the next world, I'm sure he he'd wish he took a vow of celibacy after the birth of Robb.

Sansa, a sly, selfish, woman, who was (as you say) quite prepared to risk Jon's life to serve her ends.  Once Jon had served his purpose, he got kicked into the wilderness.

Bran, an emotionless tree, who seems to have established a magical totalitarian state, by the end.

Arya, who adopts Cersei's line of argument "I'll never trust her.  She's not one of us."

Jon would be an enigma to the historian.  He would note that the honourable Northmen went on the rampage across Kings Landing, murdering robbing, and raping.   He would note too, that Jon also favoured starving the Smallfolk.  He would therefore conclude that none of the players actually cared about the people of Kings Landing.  And so, he would conclude that Daenerys fell victim to a place coup.

 

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10 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Bran, an emotionless tree, who seems to have established a magical totalitarian state, by the end.

I found something very strange about this. Bran just entered S7 as the Branbot 3000. There was no indication of him losing his humanity in S6. It makes me wonder: I remember there being a bit of outrage online because Bran had no real response to Hodor and Summer's deaths, yet was happy to see his Uncle Benjen. It makes me wonder if the Robo Bran was their clunky way of trying to retcon that lack of emotional reaction - making out Bran the Person is dead. They even had Mera say "Bran died in that cave" when she left him in S7 despite the fact he was still emoting - happy to see Benjen, curious about the visions, behaving like Bran - at the end of S6. 

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1 hour ago, Ser Drewy said:

Tyrion seemed to be increasingly whitewashed as the seasons went by. They softened him and Cersei up a fair bit in those early seasons. In S2, for example, Tyrion does not allow Joffrey to torture the Antler Men as a distraction, and Cersei does not give the order to murder Robert's bastards. I guess they made this choice when they decided to increase the Lannister roles to be equal (and in some instances surpass) the Starks as protagonists. I believe they were 'conflicted' about doing the Tysha reveal in S4 and chose not to do it. I guess they had gotten attached to Tyrion as the moral centre of the show, and simply lacked the conviction to follow through with his dark turn. For me, that episode was when I really just began losing interest/faith in the show because of that choice (amongst others).  I had kept to the idea they were going for more shocking 'turn' dark, which would have been more ham-fisted, but would at least have gotten him to the same point. But nope. They just made him a sad alcoholic for a few episodes, and then back to the usual witty banter. 

Arya became a really annoying character. She felt like a fanservice hero, someone who had major plot-points planted on her lap without really earning or developing towards them. She may be the closest thing to a 'Mary Sue' in the show after Ramsay Snow (who really is the best example of the Villain Sue trope that I think I've ever seen in a supposedly serious show...)

I couldn't agree with you more when it comes to Ramsay. He starts out alright, when he's just hurting Theon, but he just gets worse and worse as the series goes on. The level of plot armor that character got just became insane at some points; apparently all of Roose's lords and soldiers were fine with working for a guy who killed his own father, lol

Though Stannis got it the worst by D&D. The guy is by no means a saint in the novels and does some pretty dark stuff, but he's never the evil jerk the show makes him out to be. In fact, the guy kind of reminds me a little of King Arthur in some ways. The fact that D&D turn him into a straight up monster by the end really hurts a bit.

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52 minutes ago, sifth said:

 

Though Stannis got it the worst by D&D. The guy is by no means a saint in the novels and does some pretty dark stuff, but he's never the evil jerk the show makes him out to be. In fact, the guy kind of reminds me a little of King Arthur in some ways. The fact that D&D turn him into a straight up monster by the end really hurts a bit.

D&D have gone on record saying they don't like him.

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53 minutes ago, sifth said:

I couldn't agree with you more when it comes to Ramsay. He starts out alright, when he's just hurting Theon, but he just gets worse and worse as the series goes on. The level of plot armor that character got just became insane at some points; apparently all of Roose's lords and soldiers were fine with working for a guy who killed his own father, lol

His fighting skills took a big downturn however. In Season 4, he charged shirtless into a fight and came out unscathed, while in Season 6 he was reverse One-Punch man (explanation: he went down in one punch).

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3 hours ago, Count Balerion said:

Don't Expect It to Make Sense.

Oh, and Bronn gets Highgarden.

Tyrion thinks killing slavers iis Bad, but starving smallfolk is Good.

You know, something I observed and for all we know might be accidental: Tyrion hasn't had sex since Season 4 or 5. Does he literally need whores to function?

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