Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

[Le Cygne]

11 hours ago, SeanF said:

@Le Cygne, @Cas Stark and others have already covered this at length, but I'll give some examples of the glamorising of prostitution and sexual slavery in the show, as compared to the books.  Those are not the same thing, although there's plainly a big overlap between the two.

Shae.  In the books, Tyrion's treatment of her is appalling.  She is (probably) kidnapped by Bronn;  Tyrion never gives her the money he promised, takes her jewels from her, and puts her in danger.  Eventually, he murders her very brutally - an act which George Martin has described as the worst thing that Tyrion has done.  Shae is not a nice person, but she is victimised by Tyrion.  Nor does she love Tyrion, in the slightest.  In the show, she falls in love with him, but ultimately turns against him, because he won't return her love.  She's offered a lot of money to go to Pentos and refuses.  Her murder is portrayed as something much closer to self-defence than the heinous act we read in the corresponding book scene.

Podrick, in the show, is so good at sex, that the prostitutes waive their fee.  A juvenile fantasy.  Any prostitute who did that would get a punch in the face from her pimp. There is no corresponding scene in the books.

In Selhorys, in ADWD, Tyrion twice rapes a bed slave.  He does it, despite seeing the whip marks on her back, and noticing that she's dead-eyed.  The corresponding scene in the show has her offer him sex for free, because he's so damned awesome.  As if a slave who has to earn money for her master would do such a thing!  She would get a whipping.

Martin depicts a lot of horrible things in the series, but they are rarely glamorised, or included for the sake of titillation, IMHO. 

Yep, they glamorized prostitution with the happy hookers in so many scenes throughout the course of the show. And the 13 year old boy way they talked about filming the scenes, it was for their own titillation. And there were many reports of this (Jason Momoa talked about this recently).

They also glamorized sexual assault. Be sure to thank the assaulter for empowering you, and the sex trafficker, too! And as you point out, the Ros scene was exploitation, they never brought up what Littlefinger did to her again. Instead, they made Sansa honor his "love" for her and thank him.

That Shae suddenly falls in "love" with the dwarf who kidnaps her and puts her in mortal danger for his own convenience is so laughable. It's what they wanted. Just like when they made the sex slave beg him to let her do it for free. It's what they wanted to happen. And the opposite of reality/the books.

There's an avalanche of examples - and since this is the thread to talk about what we did not like about the show, many examples have been provided.

They didn't give a damn. Just showing assaults is not showing the woman's perspective. A woman is more than what someone else does to her body.

And of course, they made prostitutes the punchline in the end. No concern for their trauma. It's clear Tyrion and Bronn were Benioff and Weiss in that scene, it's all a big joke.

[Dalinar]

13 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Yes, and then the audience would have been conflicted, since Marg gave every appearance that she was going to be a great queen, the show would then not have to work nearly as hard for Dany's turn toward desperation and villainy to be believable, a good number would already be rooting for Marg and her boy toy.  

All fair. But, I think they followed GRRM storyline here. I don't think for a second that Cersei is a gonner in the books. I think she will smash the Tyrells and Margaery in the next book too. 

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Dalinar said:

All fair. But, I think they followed GRRM storyline here. I don't think for a second that Cersei is a gonner in the books. I think she will smash the Tyrells and Margaery in the next book too. 

I'd expect fAegon and the Martells to sweep the Lannisters and Tyrells out of Kings Landing.   I could even see Cersei teaming up with Dany, if the new regime kills Tommen and Myrcella.  

Funnily enough, if Cersei's wedding to Rhaegar had gone ahead, she might have brought Dany up with her own children.

[Le Cygne]

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

I'd expect fAegon and the Martells to sweep the Lannisters and Tyrells out of Kings Landing.   I could even see Cersei teaming up with Dany, if the new regime kills Tommen and Myrcella.  

Funnily enough, if Cersei's wedding to Rhaegar had gone ahead, she might have brought Dany up with her own children.

Yeah, I think there's a reason why GRRM keeps bringing up the missing characters. They aren't just there, as he said, for hoots and giggles. They played swapsie.

I think Dany and Jon were swapped in repeatedly for others.

They made them do things they would never do. They just figured well, we want them to, so they will, then force fit it. But even so, there must be a suitable reaction (and not just a tacked on token one to justify the writer's mistake).

If you murder a close relative, unless you are a psycho, it's going to affect you in a big way, and in a story you absolutely have to show that. It's more than just gee, I'm a bit bummed. (Of course, ditto for if you are resurrected.)

Likewise, if you feed a man to dogs, you don't smile, unless you are a psycho.

Just who is the crazy one here.

The writers of this show so lack a moral compass themselves, they are unable to imagine how human beings who have one would behave. The result is an unbelievable mess. And it caught up with them in the end.

[Dalinar]

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

I'd expect fAegon and the Martells to sweep the Lannisters and Tyrells out of Kings Landing.   I could even see Cersei teaming up with Dany, if the new regime kills Tommen and Myrcella.  

Funnily enough, if Cersei's wedding to Rhaegar had gone ahead, she might have brought Dany up with her own children.

Sure, it is all up to speculation, which in iteself is fun. I personally believe that what we saw on the show - for the better or the worst - is what is coming in the books in the big scope. 

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Yeah, I think there's a reason why GRRM keeps bringing up the missing characters. They aren't just there, as he said, for hoots and giggles. They played swapsie.

I think Dany and Jon were swapped in repeatedly for others.

They made them do things they would never do. They just figured well, we want them to, so they will, then force fit it. But even so, there must be a suitable reaction (and not just a tacked on token one to justify the writer's mistake).

If you murder a close relative, unless you are a psycho, it's going to affect you in a big way, and in a story you absolutely have to show that. It's more than just gee, I'm a bit bummed. (Of course, ditto for if you are resurrected.)

Likewise, if you feed a man to dogs, you don't smile, unless you are a psycho.

Just who is the crazy one here.

The writers of this show so lack a moral compass themselves, they are unable to imagine how human beings who have one would behave. The result is an unbelievable mess. And it caught up with them in the end.

That's the problem.  You have a pair of show runners who seem unable to distinguish right from wrong.

[The Dragon Demands]

yeah

[Angel Eyes]

On 11/14/2020 at 12:50 PM, Le Cygne said:

Yeah, I think there's a reason why GRRM keeps bringing up the missing characters. They aren't just there, as he said, for hoots and giggles. They played swapsie.

I think Dany and Jon were swapped in repeatedly for others.

 

So would that explain why Jon is named Aegon?

[Le Cygne]

Here's another one for the "GOT is the go-to example of the worst ending" file:

The fans of supernatural are vocal, and they quickly lit up social media with their thoughts on the finale. 

"I think it’s safe to say #Supernatural topped #GameOfThrones for worst end of a series ever," said one fan. 

"Congratulations to the Supernatural Finale you've somehow made the Game Of Thrones ending look half decent, said another, adding: "What an achievement."

"I see #supernatural pulled the Game of Thrones. I peaced out eons ago but yeah, I can't imagine sticking with something FIFTEEN years .. for that," said another. 

Yep, many of the show's fans are comparing the final episode to that of Game of Thrones, the HBO epic which went out to a less than stellar reception in May, 2019. 

https://www.tvfanatic.com/2020/11/supernatural-fans-blast-series-finale-you-ruined-our-show/

[Count Balerion]

D&D smuggle explosives into Morocco! The cast and crew film on a frozen lake ... which begins to crack!

 

[Count Balerion]

And ... speaking of Dragon Demands and the Bloodmoon Botch-up:

 

[The Dragon Demands]

yeah

[Count Balerion]

Very a propos:

https://i.imgur.com/KlgOsn0.jpg

[The Dragon Demands]

 

yeah

[The Dragon Demands]

yeah

[The Dragon Demands]

Source: Wikipedia:

Quote

The story takes place on the fictional fantasy world of Osten Ard. The history of the world and the races present in Osten Ard have a great impact on the current events in the books. Thousands of years ago the long-lived Gardenborn arrived in the land, fleeing a cataclysm. They were three tribes, the Zida'ya (commonly called Sithi), the Hikeda'ya (also called Norns) and the Tinukeda'ya (known as Dwarrows and Niskies). In Osten Ard the Gardenborn prospered and they built nine great cities of tremendous beauty. The first two tribes had ruled the third in their ancestral home called the Garden, but in Osten Ard the Tinukeda'ya went their own way, developing into two separate tribes, the seafaring Niskies and the earth-dwelling Dwarrows.

The other two tribes also split ways, making a pact at Sesuad'ra, the Stone of Farewell. Their main subject of argument was the appearance of Men or mortals in Osten Ard. The Zida'ya were content to leave Men alone to go their own way, as long as they didn't trespass in Sithi lands. The Hikeda'ya were of the opinion that the mortals had to be wiped out or driven from Osten Ard. The Norns and their fell queen Utuk'u, eldest and most powerful of the Gardenborn, removed to the north of the world, taking the two northernmost cities for their own. Three cities were also given to the Tinukeda'ya, one was sea-bound Jhina't'senei which went to the Niskies and the other two were deep under the earth which went to the Dwarrows, the smaller tribe of the Tinukeda'ya. In the greatest of them all, Asu'a, the High King ruled.

But Men began to prosper and advance and the sea empire of Nabban rose and fell without it disturbing the Gardenborn. The Sithi also had great friendship with the Hernystiri of the west. Then the Rimmersmen came with iron and to them the Gardenborn were devils and demons, to be killed on sight. Unfortunately the Gardenborn suffer from a severe allergy to iron and even with their magics and their own iron-hard witchwood weapons, they were beaten back, one after the other. The Hernystiri were the only ones who stood by the Sithi in the final battle where both armies were destroyed. The remaining Sithi withdrew to Asu'a and there awaited the end. Ineluki, the King's younger son, wove terrible magic at the end with five of his servants and there they and Asu'a were destroyed. However, the spell gave the remaining Sithi time to flee to Aldheorte forest, where they continued to live in secrecy.

Also, it turns out that the human capital city Hayholt is built over the ruins of the Sithi capital, Asu'a, and there are ancient Sithi tunnels running beneath it.

....I think there's even odds that the unexplored crypts beneath Winterfell, "at least as big as the huge castle above it", extend into tunnels formerly inhabited by the Children of the Forest. With natural hot springs it's an obvious settlement location.  And the rumors and dragon-dreams of things "hidden" in those crypt tunnels...

And could the Deep Ones be a third tribe of the Children of the Forest?

[Lord Varys]

For the books, who and what the Green Men are is still an open question ... but if the story about the Pact is even remotely accurate, they would predate the creation of the Others - if they as a force were not already a part of the original war between Children and First Men during the Dawn Age.

If the Others were a last straw resort of the Children after the Pact was made and, presumably, broken with the First Men later conveniently forgetting/supressing that knowledge, then either all Children decided to create the Others - and one faction, those the Last Hero searched out, eventually turned against the Others-creating Children, or there were always two factions - a First Men-friendly faction after the Pact, and a First Men-hating faction eventually creating the Others.

The MST parallel there is pretty striking. The Norns also dwell in the far north, so if we assume the Children created the Others and dwelled with them at the place we know as the Heart of Winter now then this would be a different power center than the other places the Children lived in the Age of Heroes.

So there is a chance that around the time of the Pact there was a split among the Children and those who made the peace with the First Men stayed in all of Westeros while those who hated mankind left for the far north and created the Others.

Overall, I imagine the power behind the Others will turn out to be an Utuk-ku-like (the immortal Norn queen from MST) character. A greenseer of the Children so old that he or she still remembers firsthand all atrocities the First Men committed during the original and later wars who literally conserved his/her pain and hatred in eternal ice. This would then be what 'The North remembers' truly means.

There is also the chance that the Others are spell running amok, but they do act meticulously and execute a long-term plan, meaning they must have access to a lot of information and they would have to be able to coordinate and direct their efforts. This indicates that there is some mind behind them.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

For the books, who and what the Green Men are is still an open question ... but if the story about the Pact is even remotely accurate, they would predate the creation of the Others - if they as a force were not already a part of the original war between Children and First Men during the Dawn Age.

If the Others were a last straw resort of the Children after the Pact was made and, presumably, broken with the First Men later conveniently forgetting/supressing that knowledge, then either all Children decided to create the Others - and one faction, those the Last Hero searched out, eventually turned against the Others-creating Children, or there were always two factions - a First Men-friendly faction after the Pact, and a First Men-hating faction eventually creating the Others.

The MST parallel there is pretty striking. The Norns also dwell in the far north, so if we assume the Children created the Others and dwelled with them at the place we know as the Heart of Winter now then this would be a different power center than the other places the Children lived in the Age of Heroes.

So there is a chance that around the time of the Pact there was a split among the Children and those who made the peace with the First Men stayed in all of Westeros while those who hated mankind left for the far north and created the Others.

Overall, I imagine the power behind the Others will turn out to be an Utuk-ku-like (the immortal Norn queen from MST) character. A greenseer of the Children so old that he or she still remembers firsthand all atrocities the First Men committed during the original and later wars who literally conserved his/her pain and hatred in eternal ice. This would then be what 'The North remembers' truly means.

There is also the chance that the Others are spell running amok, but they do act meticulously and execute a long-term plan, meaning they must have access to a lot of information and they would have to be able to coordinate and direct their efforts. This indicates that there is some mind behind them.

Nornish society is horrific, but fascinating.

The parallel between the Norns and the Others seems quite clear.  

I’m torn between loathing Utukkhu and her subjects, and feeling great sympathy for them.  In many ways, they are awful, but terrible wrongs were committed against them.

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

Nornish society is horrific, but fascinating.

The parallel between the Norns and the Others seems quite clear.  

I’m torn between loathing Utukkhu and her subjects, and feeling great sympathy for them.  In many ways, they are awful, but terrible wrongs were committed against them.

I'd think the Utuk'ku parallel is even more glaring with the new trilogy, considering the entire Norn story there shows how insidiously she manipulates her people with political and religious symbolism and propaganda to pretend she has their best interest at heart - and their entire war thingy is something the Norns as a people would also profit from - when in fact they are all just used as pawns for her great exit ... which seems to involve the destruction of the entire world by unleashing this 'Unbeing' thing which destroyed the original Garden.

And I expect the big twist there will be that she also used Ineluki in the last book to pave the way for that. With him failing, she has to do the work herself.

In relation to ASoIaF I'm more inclined to believe that all the Children decided - by consensus, most likely - to create the Others when the First Men broke the Pact and pushed them further and further away. This would be based on the fact that Bran is confused that the Children are not angry about the fact that they are dying - implicating that they were angry about that ages ago ... and then, after the fires of their wrath died down and consumed all their hate only ashes remained. With the normal Children, but not whoever went through the ritual of creating and controlling the Others. For him/her their hatred and wrath would be conserved by the cold of the eternal ice, very much like Maester Aemon said.

Meaning, ideally, whoever is behind the Others isn't necessarily an evil person, but one who still acts on feelings and emotions that are still as vivid and real to them as they were 8,000 or 10,000 years ago. This kind of thing would be the only kind of plot I can see that would add a human element to the entire Others plot - both for the reasons why the Others were created in the first place and why their actions today are not just some evil ice demons being evil. And then the final confrontation could also be more about some ancient creature finally giving up their hatred and wrath and die, rather than some stupid battle where only the assembled ice demons are killed, and nobody can guarantee that some didn't get away.

The question of the Green Men's role in all that is intriguing, though. It is curious that we don't know anything about their role during the Long Night so far, so they definitely could have played a role there ... both for good or ill.

[The Dragon Demands]

Well the scenario I gathered from the TV series, is that the White Walkers were a weapon of last resort that the Children of the Forest made, but NEVER deployed, during their wars against the First Men...because at the last minute, peace broke out.  

I like the analogy Elio cited in a video when this happened, to that old episode from Babylon 5 season 1, of a weapon of last resort made as a bluff between two warring groups of aliens - but then the aliens made peace with each other, so the weapon turned on all of them (something similar also happened with war robots in a Star Trek: Voyager episode).  

So it even loosely makes sense that some rogue Child of the Forest, centuries later, may have activated these weapons they never actually unleashed at the time of their creation.

The problem is that this leak says the Green Men sided with the First Men AGAINST the other Children of the Forest, when the story says that the Green Men are guardians of "the Pact" between the First Men and the CotF.  

What if Winterfell IS "the Heart of Winter"? And the knowledge was lost to the mists of time?