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Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!


The Fattest Leech

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19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But what's the problem with Arya killing the Lich King thing? Somebody had to do it, and it is not that the series would have been better if Jon had done that, considering no Lich King character is going to feature in the books, and we won't get some kind of stupidly organized last stand at Winterfell.

This thing didn't make the show bad. I mean, you have to be obsessed with what you think will be the book story to care about such a trivial detail.

I mean, a good ending doesn't make something good that is bad, just as a bad ending does not (necessarily) ruin a novel or a movie or a series. The weaknesses/silliness of GoT wouldn't have gone away if the show had done things differently in the last season. It wouldn't have been as bad as it turned out to be, but it would have still been bad.

well, the problem for me was that it came out of nowhere. jon and bran both have a history w/ the NK, arya doesn't. they tried to retcon it by having it that melisandre prophesied that arya would kill people with ... eyes (you don't say!). the ending's bad imo b/c it doesn't flow from anything that came before.

it's not even so much that it upset me as that, being the end of the WW storyline, it made the whole storyline (in retrospect) rot. which i guess it would have been anyway! and confirmed that, contrary to what we had been told, the ending is not martin's by a long shot.

(evil dany DID upset me.)

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Everything you said dragon is true. It's so sad what happened and infuriating. I mean were many journalists and news sources just too scared to investigate and reveal what was going on, or did they not want to lose their access like Watchers on the Wall who praised D&D for years and even acted like they deserved a break so wouldn't be at comic con last year.

House of the dragon should be interesting. Hopefully it will be managed and made like a real tv show so the frat boy approach of GoT will not happen again. Hopefully we will have comparisons made. Tbh anything that shows House of the dragon in a positive way and can show how bad GoT was will hopefully come out. I'm sure there are still many terribke secrets we don't know yet but will come out soon.

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32 minutes ago, Ghostlydragon said:

Everything you said dragon is true. It's so sad what happened and infuriating. I mean were many journalists and news sources just too scared to investigate and reveal what was going on, or did they not want to lose their access like Watchers on the Wall who praised D&D for years and even acted like they deserved a break so wouldn't be at comic con last year.

House of the dragon should be interesting. Hopefully it will be managed and made like a real tv show so the frat boy approach of GoT will not happen again. Hopefully we will have comparisons made. Tbh anything that shows House of the dragon in a positive way and can show how bad GoT was will hopefully come out. I'm sure there are still many terribke secrets we don't know yet but will come out soon.

TBH, I've no desire whatsoever to watch House of the Dragon.  Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me.

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I'm not surprised. How many of the general audience even know "Last Watch" exists? Probably not many. Most of them probably wouldn't even have bothered with it(or Hibberd) if season 8 hadn't been rot. I'm not even sure I blame them that much. They've mooved on to whatever the latest thing is.

I *am* interested in HOTD, but will pretend season 8 didn't happen. Or most of season 5-7 for that matter.

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8 hours ago, SeanF said:

TBH, I've no desire whatsoever to watch House of the Dragon.  Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me.

Agree.  I have zero interest and even if by some remote chance it beat the odds and was good, I would still probably not ever watch it until it was over so I could know it would be worth it.

I don't really think there is anything new to learn about GOT.  We knew for a long time that the Ds were jerks, that they wasted money like crazy getting fixated on wild ideas like shooting in Iceland during the winter, using live animals, shooting by virtual candlelight, etc. etc.  We thought and we know that they played favorites and their scripts reflected this and that they were unkind to some of the lesser actors.  The only thing I really wondered, other than how they managed to hold it together at all, and why no one was ever hired for the most basic fact checks continuity of how many Lannister necklaces are there and is it no horses or most horses type of easy fixes, was whether HBO realized how badly the final season was likely to be received, if you remember the actors were pretty cagey in their comments in the months leading up to it, and whether they, HBO, tried to put any pressure on the Ds, or if they were in the same river of denial, convinced that CGI splash would hide the rot one more time. 

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On 12/9/2020 at 12:15 AM, Count Balerion said:

well, the problem for me was that it came out of nowhere. jon and bran both have a history w/ the NK, arya doesn't. they tried to retcon it by having it that melisandre prophesied that arya would kill people with ... eyes (you don't say!). the ending's bad imo b/c it doesn't flow from anything that came before.

it's not even so much that it upset me as that, being the end of the WW storyline, it made the whole storyline (in retrospect) rot. which i guess it would have been anyway! and confirmed that, contrary to what we had been told, the ending is not martin's by a long shot.

(evil dany DID upset me.)

Oh, I get it that even some TV-only guys considered the Arya twist to be a bad call, because there was some buildup for Jon in that role, but it is just the question who used a stupid dagger on a monster. It is not that this Lich King creature was a character or that there was an intrinsic reason in the show lore that only a certain (prophesied) person could defeat him. Hence, there was good reason to expect that they would use a cheap trick to make this ending 'a surprise'.

I mean, for the Others story in the books to be good, Jon, Dany, whoever has to do more than just use a dagger on a zombie king for it justify prophecy shenanigans. This has to be bigger, more complex, more intricate, more substantial than just some person using a knife or a sword on another.

Especially since George has yet to reveal what 'the promised prince'/Azor Ahai is actually supposed to do. That is unclear so far for a reason, I imagine. Figuring out what it means to be this person is going to be a crucial part of their story.

The Daenerys story is another matter, which is why I didn't really mention this specifically. I did reference who is on the throne in the end, though, because I'd say that this, too, doesn't make the story stupid. If Bran truly is going to be George's king - which I still have trouble to buy, at least with him being 'a proper king' and not a living god, then the crucial thing there is how he ends up in that role, and not so much that he becomes king. Because the way this happened in the show was just utter crap.

12 hours ago, SeanF said:

TBH, I've no desire whatsoever to watch House of the Dragon.  Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me.

To be sure, if the recent news about the casting sheets for HoD are correct, chances are pretty good that we are going to get more decent writing/story there, especially since chances are good that they are taking their time and won't rush to the Dance.

We will have Princess Rhaenys, Mysaria the White Worm, and Harrold Westerling, Cole's predecessor as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard among the main characters ... which sort of implies the show will focus on the first half of the reign of Viserys I, making this, perhaps, more a 'The Crown' or 'The Tudors' with dragons than a GoT - which could actually make it pretty good.

Wars with dragons we already saw in GoT, but subtle, well-written intrigue was completely absent from GoT after the first season ... and HoD could deliver on that front. It won't be written by those two morons, after all.

I mean, there is great potential in the story of Rhaenyra and Criston Cole, in the exploits of Daemon Targaryen, the relationship between Alicent Hightower and her stepdaughter, etc.

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11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, I get it that even some TV-only guys considered the Arya twist to be a bad call, because there was some buildup for Jon in that role, but it is just the question who used a stupid dagger on a monster. It is not that this Lich King creature was a character or that there was an intrinsic reason in the show lore that only a certain (prophesied) person could defeat him. Hence, there was good reason to expect that they would use a cheap trick to make this ending 'a surprise'.

I mean, for the Others story in the books to be good, Jon, Dany, whoever has to do more than just use a dagger on a zombie king for it justify prophecy shenanigans. This has to be bigger, more complex, more intricate, more substantial than just some person using a knife or a sword on another.

Especially since George has yet to reveal what 'the promised prince'/Azor Ahai is actually supposed to do. That is unclear so far for a reason, I imagine. Figuring out what it means to be this person is going to be a crucial part of their story.

The Daenerys story is another matter, which is why I didn't really mention this specifically. I did reference who is on the throne in the end, though, because I'd say that this, too, doesn't make the story stupid. If Bran truly is going to be George's king - which I still have trouble to buy, at least with him being 'a proper king' and not a living god, then the crucial thing there is how he ends up in that role, and not so much that he becomes king. Because the way this happened in the show was just utter crap.

To be sure, if the recent news about the casting sheets for HoD are correct, chances are pretty good that we are going to get more decent writing/story there, especially since chances are good that they are taking their time and won't rush to the Dance.

We will have Princess Rhaenys, Mysaria the White Worm, and Harrold Westerling, Cole's predecessor as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard among the main characters ... which sort of implies the show will focus on the first half of the reign of Viserys I, making this, perhaps, more a 'The Crown' or 'The Tudors' with dragons than a GoT - which could actually make it pretty good.

Wars with dragons we already saw in GoT, but subtle, well-written intrigue was completely absent from GoT after the first season ... and HoD could deliver on that front. It won't be written by those two morons, after all.

I mean, there is great potential in the story of Rhaenyra and Criston Cole, in the exploits of Daemon Targaryen, the relationship between Alicent Hightower and her stepdaughter, etc.

I suppose I'm also put off, however good this series might be, by the fact that of the last two scions of this dynasty, one goes batshit and gets stabbed to death by the other, who goes off to live in the wilderness, even if that does turn out to be s show only thing, and not Martin's ending.

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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I suppose I'm also put off, however good this series might be, by the fact that of the last two scions of this dynasty, one goes batshit and gets stabbed to death by the other, who goes off to live in the wilderness, even if that does turn out to be s show only thing, and not Martin's ending.

That was definitely off-putting, and can indeed undermine interest to a point. A doomed dynasty whose end we already know is less interesting than one with an open end. However, I doubt that the Targaryens will be dynastic dead ends in the books the way their show counterparts were. Even Dumb & Dumber hinted at a Jon-Dany love child in one of later seasons, and that is something they would have gotten from George, one imagines. I mean, my And then there is a decent chance that Aegon is going to have time enough to breed with Arianne or another wife before his downfall (not to mention that Aegon himself could actually survive the series).

Even if there is no Targaryen monarch at the end of the story, there might be a lordly/princely branch of the house left. Even if Aegon/Arianne's child doesn't get the Iron Throne, they would be the heirs to Dorne, for instance.

From a dynastic point of view the three big houses are all goners - not only the Targaryens will die out, but the Starks and Lannisters, too, considering that at the end of the show story the remaining members are either unmarried, childless, or incapable of producing children.

The Lannisters cannot possibly die out in the books, and we can also expect that Sansa, Arya, and especially Rickon have different fates in the books.

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7 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

you don't seriously think that was the real ending, do you?

I sincerely hope not.  And, TBH, it must surely have been holiest of "Holy Shit!" moments.  The fates of Hodor and Shireen are interesting, but hardly in the same league, if GRRM had made such a revelation to D & D.

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1 hour ago, The Dragon Demands said:

you don't seriously think that was the real ending, do you?

Yes.  Dany becomes a villain and is killed 100%.  Jon returns to the wall 100%.  Bran becomes king 100%.  Arya leaves Westeros 98%.  Sansa becomes queen 95%.  Tyrion is back on top 100%. Jamie and Cersei die together 98%.  

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24 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Yes.  Dany becomes a villain and is killed 100%.  Jon returns to the wall 100%.  Bran becomes king 100%.  Arya leaves Westeros 98%.  Sansa becomes queen 95%.  Tyrion is back on top 100%. Jamie and Cersei die together 98%.  

That's 100% fan fiction.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

That's 100% fan fiction.

I wouldn’t put it past Martin to write a series in which Richard III (ie Tyrion) wins. Of course, that makes him a very different character to the insufferable show-runners’ self-insert that we got in the second half of the series.  Like every other main character, he shared the same name, and did some of the same things as his book counterpart, but otherwise bore no relation.

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