Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

[Le Cygne]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I can't think of a show less like AGOT than Breaking Bad or Better Call Saul, for that matter.

True. Speaking of Better Call Saul, it's about to end, and I like it a lot, and I'm not sorry it's ending. It's time and I'm looking forward to it.

Still laughing that they brought out the "they didn't want it to end" excuse for why people don't like the ridiculously bad GoT finale.

If the GoT finale had been fabulous, people would have loved it, then re-watched the whole series again and again. Like we do for LOTR. It's a gift that keeps giving.

[SeanF]

31 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

True. Speaking of Better Call Saul, it's about to end, and I like it a lot, and I'm not sorry it's ending. It's time and I'm looking forward to it.

Still laughing that they brought out the "they didn't want it to end" excuse for why people don't like the ridiculously bad GoT finale.

If the GoT finale had been fabulous, people would have loved it, then re-watched the whole series again and again. Like we do for LOTR. It's a gift that keeps giving.

Even if the GOT finale had been mediocre, people would still have rewatched the show.  Yes, there would be plenty of criticisms, but at least the majority of casual viewers would have been satisfied.  In the end, most viewers, including most casual viewers, concluded that they had been trolled, and reacted accordingly.

If BB had ended with Walter murdering Skyler, Walt Junior, Holly, and Marie Schrader, viewers would likewise think they had been trolled.  It would be no good the show runners saying "but didn't you see, Walter was a bad man", because it would have been out of character for Walter to have done such a thing.   It would have been as just a piece of schlock.

[Le Cygne]

GoT, while gaining more investors for the television Ponzi scheme, had not been returning real dividends. It's not like Seinfeld where the episodes leading up to the end were complete little stories in and of themselves.

LOTR built toward something and paid off, and importantly, it also meant something all along. Friendship, love, sacrifice, noble deeds... You'd have to go back to long dead Ned and Catelyn to find that in GoT.

GoT shot themselves in the foot with the honor is stupid and gets you killed thing. We can't call it a theme, since they played hooky in the 8th grade. But there's no way to make a memorable ending on those terms.

Paying lip service to "family" after they completely destroyed the concept doesn't count (you don't get to do that after you almost kill your siblings or kill your aunt). All friendship was to them was Tyrion and Bronn telling brothel jokes.

That they couldn't even patch together an ending where they faked real human values is telling.

[SeanF]

21 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

GoT, while gaining more investors for the television Ponzi scheme, had not been returning real dividends. It's not like Seinfeld where the episodes leading up to it were complete little stories in and of themselves.

LOTR built toward something and paid off, and importantly, it also meant something all along. Friendship, love, sacrifice, noble deeds... You'd have to go back to long dead Ned and Catelyn to find that in GoT.

GoT shot themselves in the foot with the honor is stupid and gets you killed thing. We can't call it a theme, since they played hooky in the 8th grade. But there's no way to make a memorable ending on those terms.

Paying lip service to "family" after they completely destroyed the concept doesn't count (you don't get to do that after you almost kill your siblings). All friendship was to them was Tyrion and Bron telling brothel jokes.

That they couldn't even patch together an ending where they faked real human values is telling.

You can only do grimdark successfully if you have a fine black sense of humour, like Joe Abercrombie or KJ Parker, and then only in books.

[Cas Stark]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Even if the GOT finale had been mediocre, people would still have rewatched the show.  Yes, there would be plenty of criticisms, but at least the majority of casual viewers would have been satisfied.  In the end, most viewers, including most casual viewers, concluded that they had been trolled, and reacted accordingly.

If BB had ended with Walter murdering Skyler, Walt Junior, Holly, and Marie Schrader, viewers would likewise think they had been trolled.  It would be no good the show runners saying "but didn't you see, Walter was a bad man", because it would have been out of character for Walter to have done such a thing.   It would have been as just a piece of schlock.

Speaking of Walt, that was a master class in how you show someone slowly disintegrating over time.  Everyone I'm sure cheered when Walt blew up the stockbroker's? car and blew up Tuco's building.  The audience felt this was justified.  And then, little by little you saw Walt do worse and worse things..which while a certain segment of the audience stayed in denial about Walt, the show NEVER made the terrible things he did any kind of heroic, you didn't have swelling triumphant music when he let Jane die or killed Mike.  This is where GOT fatally went wrong, if they had presented Dany's many unsavory actions as actually  unsavory instead of heroic then at least her journey to the darkside may have been better received.  Not to excuse the last season, because even a better blueprint wouldn't have saved it's awfulness.  I am now resigned to see that Kim isn't who I thought she was, and I find that really sad, but I recognize what the show has shown me in the last season about her and none of it is good or excusable.  IMO

[SeanF]

22 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Speaking of Walt, that was a master class in how you show someone slowly disintegrating over time.  Everyone I'm sure cheered when Walt blew up the stockbroker's? car and blew up Tuco's building.  The audience felt this was justified.  And then, little by little you saw Walt do worse and worse things..which while a certain segment of the audience stayed in denial about Walt, the show NEVER made the terrible things he did any kind of heroic, you didn't have swelling triumphant music when he let Jane die or killed Mike.  This is where GOT fatally went wrong, if they had presented Dany's many unsavory actions as actually  unsavory instead of heroic then at least her journey to the darkside may have been better received.  Not to excuse the last season, because even a better blueprint wouldn't have saved it's awfulness.  I am now resigned to see that Kim isn't who I thought she was, and I find that really sad, but I recognize what the show has shown me in the last season about her and none of it is good or excusable.  IMO

It wasn't just Dany though.  They wanted us to believe that a whole series of brutal actions were actually good.  They wanted us to feel Tyrion's pain at the lack of recognition he gets from his family, after hanging thieves and blowing men up with wildfire, in order to keep a psycopathic usurper in power;  they wanted us to cheer when he shoots his father;  they wanted us to gloat over the hideous deaths that Arya inflicted on people who had wronged House Stark (the Freys are so evil that they apparently keep buckets of poison at the Twins);  Cersei's treatment of Unella was portrayed as hilarious (according to Hibberd's book, they were originally going to show her being raped);  we were expected to rah-rah at Ramsay first torturing Theon, and then Ramsay being fed to dogs, and LF having his throat opened;  Olly being hanged, with his tongue sticking out was pure fanservice, and so on and so on.  And Tywin was lawful neutral.

You can't produce a show that revels in cruelty and brutality, and portrays revenge and dealing out evil unto evil as being good and empowering, and then turn around at the end and say "You should have seen how terrible this all is."

My own view for much of the series was simply "This is a cruel world, and it is how it is," as one would expect in a quasi-medieval world, or a series set in imperial Rome, or among rival mafia clans.  But, once the values of the world have been established, they have to be adhered to. And, you can't credibly portray cruelty as being good when done by characters you favour, bad when done by characters you disfavour.

[Cas Stark]

I agree, the D's lack any nuance, another reason the show majorly faltered after they went off book.  Even when they bastardized GRRM there was still an echo of his story in the first seasons, which is what made them so much better than  the later ones.

I admit I was happy that Arya poisoned House Frey and that I don't care if that is bad and I hope that GRRM also destroys the Freys in the books he's never finishing. 

[Le Cygne]

53 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It wasn't just Dany though.  They wanted us to believe that a whole series of brutal actions were actually good.  They wanted us to feel Tyrion's pain at the lack of recognition he gets from his family, after hanging thieves and blowing men up with wildfire, in order to keep a psycopathic usurper in power;  they wanted us to cheer when he shoots his father;  they wanted us to gloat over the hideous deaths that Arya inflicted on people who had wronged House Stark (the Freys are so evil that they apparently keep buckets of poison at the Twins);  Cersei's treatment of Unella was portrayed as hilarious (according to Hibberd's book, they were originally going to show her being raped);  we were expected to rah-rah at Ramsay first torturing Theon, and then Ramsay being fed to dogs, and LF having his throat opened;  Olly being hanged, with his tongue sticking out was pure fanservice, and so on and so on.  And Tywin was lawful neutral.

You can't produce a show that revels in cruelty and brutality, and portrays revenge and dealing out evil unto evil as being good and empowering, and then turn around at the end and say "You should have seen how terrible this all is."

My own view for much of the series was simply "This is a cruel world, and it is how it is," as one would expect in a quasi-medieval world, or a series set in imperial Rome, or among rival mafia clans.  But, once the values of the world have been established, they have to be adhered to. And, you can't credibly portray cruelty as being good when done by characters you favour, bad when done by characters you disfavour.

Getting justice is one thing. Getting revenge by acting like a psycho villain then proclaiming that is awesome is quite another.

The showrunners went over the top with this sort of thing, with the smirks and posturing. They made the characters say it was awesome (empowering!) or just swept it under the rug.

And then came Dany, who was made the scapegoat. Her murderer is applauded, and again, doesn't change. Tyrion murdered Shae and that was a big whatever. GRRM said that was his darkest deed.

[SeanF]

22 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

  

Getting justice is one thing. Getting revenge by acting like a psycho villain then proclaiming that is awesome is quite another.

The showrunners went over the top with this sort of thing, with the smirks and posturing. They made the characters say it was awesome (empowering!) or just swept it under the rug.

And then came Dany, who was made the scapegoat. Her murderer is applauded, and again, doesn't change. Tyrion murdered Shae and that was a big whatever. GRRM said that was his darkest deed.

If I'm watching a show that's set in a world loosely based upon medieval Europe, I'll assume that certain norms apply, just as I would if I'm watching a film about Elizabeth I. 

In such a world, no one will dispute that capital punishment is legitimate, and that the more brutal the form of capital punishment, the greater the deterrent;  trial processes are likely to be quite primitive by our standards;  torture will be applied;  most people will assume that the world is meant to be run by kings and lords, and that women are inferior to men.  Pretty well everyone will assume that war is a legitimate means of settling political disputes.  Nobody would be in favour of same sex marriage.

The show or film doesn't need to endorse such beliefs, but it needs to accept that they are the norms by which the characters are operating.   And it can't play fast and loose, judging some characters according to the standards of a medieval world at war, and others by the standards of a modern world at peace.  You can't credibly treat the mass poisoning of the Freys as awesome, and the execution of the Tarlys as horrific, within a couple of episodes of each other. 

[Le Cygne]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

If I'm watching a show that's set in a world loosely based upon medieval Europe, I'll assume that certain norms apply, just as I would if I'm watching a film about Elizabeth I. 

In such a world, no one will dispute that capital punishment is legitimate, and that the more brutal the form of capital punishment, the greater the deterrent;  trial processes are likely to be quite primitive by our standards;  torture will be applied;  most people will assume that the world is meant to be run by kings and lords, and that women are inferior to men.  Pretty well everyone will assume that war is a legitimate means of settling political disputes.  Nobody would be in favour of same sex marriage.

The show or film doesn't need to endorse such beliefs, but it needs to accept that they are the norms by which the characters are operating.   And it can't play fast and loose, judging some characters according to the standards of a medieval world at war, and others by the standards of a modern world at peace.  You can't credibly treat the mass poisoning of the Freys as awesome, and the execution of the Tarlys as horrific, within a couple of episodes of each other. 

Yes, there's the bold. I agree, there was a double standard. Dany was doing the standard thing for a ruler of the times during warfare. And in The Bells, they went over the top with Dany, in terms of brutality, it made no sense.

They seemed to enjoy the brutality.

Arya and the Freys is not warfare but personal revenge. Sansa killing Ramsay by acting like Ramsay, and Arya killing the Freys by acting like the Freys, should be the stuff of tragedy. (Not to mention out of character for Sansa.)

Jon killed his aunt, and Tyrion talked him into doing it, after murdering another woman who rejected him, and the show glosses over that. On to the important stuff, frolicking with the dog and joking about brothels.

Look at the end of The Searchers - Ethan stays on the porch. The story shows us this is the impact of what he has felt and done. If you are going to go there with this sort of thing in a story, you need to really go there. The show didn't.

They enjoyed the brutality. The human beings, not so much.

[SeanF]

46 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Yes, there's the bold. I agree, there was a double standard. Dany was doing the standard thing for a ruler of the times during warfare. And in The Bells, they went over the top with Dany, in terms of brutality, it made no sense.

They seemed to enjoy the brutality.

Arya and the Freys is not warfare but personal revenge. Sansa killing Ramsay by acting like Ramsay, and Arya killing the Freys by acting like the Freys, should be the stuff of tragedy. (Not to mention out of character for Sansa.)

Jon killed his aunt, and Tyrion talked him into doing it, after murdering another woman who rejected him, and the show glosses over that. On to the important stuff, frolicking with the dog and joking about brothels.

Look at the end of The Searchers - Ethan stays on the porch. The story shows us this is the impact of what he has felt and done. If you are going to go there with this sort of thing in a story, you need to really go there. The show didn't.

They enjoyed the brutality. The human beings, not so much.

I don't know how the various character arcs will end in the books.  But, I do know that if Arya does finish up as a gloating torturer and murderer, it will be portrayed as something desperately sad.  And the author has confirmed that Tyrion is "the villain" of the tale, his favourite character, but siill very much like Richard III or Iago.

[Count Balerion]

11 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

I doubt they even watched Breaking Bad, much less revered it, since they learned diddly squat from it about how to tell a story or run a show. Yet another thing they blather about that flew over their heads.

Also the false logic about number of episodes for very different shows have zippo to do with this one.

Well, the book is providing lots of laughs, so there's that.

they did keep checking IMBD to see if they were ahead of BREAKING BAD or not. that's not necessarily revering, though. more like envy.

yes, the book is a riot.

[Count Balerion]

yah, why is it cool when arya murthers freys but shocking when dany kills tarlys.

[Morte]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

You can't credibly treat the mass poisoning of the Freys as awesome, and the execution of the Tarlys as horrific, within a couple of episodes of each other. 

Not to say that in the world they depicted the murder on the Frey-family would still be seen as mindless slaughter and evil (just as destroying the Vatican), while nobody would have even shrugged because of the Tarlys (or the masters, by the way) - normal warfare here, nothing to see or talk about.

2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

And in The Bells, they went over the top with Dany, in terms of brutality, it made no sense.

Not even that would be much to talk about - Tyros, Korinth, Karthago, Magdeburg, just to name a few of so many cities completely destroyed... Maximum negative reaction of fellow leaders: a frown, a "well, was that necessary?" . And in this special case: a city whose citizens stood by and let the Vatican been blown up, without any consequences for the lunatic who did this? People who stayed behind their walls while the rest of the Kingdom faced the Others? With Cersei not hanging from the City-walls as the armies approached, the city would be magdeburgerised by every historical military you would put in charge.

[SeanF]

16 minutes ago, Morte said:

Not to say that in the world they depicted the murder on the Frey-family would still be seen as mindless slaughter and evil (just as destroying the Vatican), while nobody would have even shrugged because of the Tarlys (or the masters, by the way) - normal warfare here, nothing to see or talk about.

Not even that would be much to talk about - Tyros, Korinth, Karthago, Magdeburg, just to name a few of so many cities completely destroyed... Maximum negative reaction of fellow leaders: a frown, a "well, was that necessary?" . And in this special case: a city whose citizens stood by and let the Vatican been blown up, without any consequences for the lunatic who did this? People who stayed behind their walls while the rest of the Kingdom faced the Others? With Cersei not hanging from the City-walls as the armies approached, the city would be magdeburgerised by every historical military you would put in charge.

At any point up to perhaps 1850 or so, the treatment of Kings Landing would have been met with a shrug.  Cersei was offered quarter, and responded by executing the best friend of the besieging general.   Henry V or Caesar or Wallenstein would not have offered mercy after that. 

[Cas Stark]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I don't know how the various character arcs will end in the books.  But, I do know that if Arya does finish up as a gloating torturer and murderer, it will be portrayed as something desperately sad.  And the author has confirmed that Tyrion is "the villain" of the tale, his favourite character, but siill very much like Richard III or Iago.

Oh I think Arya's ending will probably be quite sad, but I seem one of the few who saw her leaving her family and Westeros to go out into the unknown as not liberating but as profoundly sad, she managed to stay alive, reunite with her family, but like Frodo, she will no longer belong.

The show also often confused how characters in the show would react to how the audience would react.  We, the audience could and should see her killing the Tarlys as bad strategy and unnecessary and possibly as a red flag for her.  While Tyrion could and would reasonably argue not to kill them for strategic reasons, the idea that his character would somehow be profoundly shaken at these two non compliant enemies, let alone have this begin him on his route to her betrayal is not believable.

[Cas Stark]

5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

At any point up to perhaps 1850 or so, the treatment of Kings Landing would have been met with a shrug.  Cersei was offered quarter, and responded by executing the best friend of the besieging general.   Henry V or Caesar or Wallenstein would not have offered mercy after that. 

Ha.  Right?  Caesar would have burned KL to the ground, killed every adult in the city, enslaved the rest and not broken a sweat or needed any dragons to get the job done. 

[SeanF]

34 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Oh I think Arya's ending will probably be quite sad, but I seem one of the few who saw her leaving her family and Westeros to go out into the unknown as not liberating but as profoundly sad, she managed to stay alive, reunite with her family, but like Frodo, she will no longer belong.

The show also often confused how characters in the show would react to how the audience would react.  We, the audience could and should see her killing the Tarlys as bad strategy and unnecessary and possibly as a red flag for her.  While Tyrion could and would reasonably argue not to kill them for strategic reasons, the idea that his character would somehow be profoundly shaken at these two non compliant enemies, let alone have this begin him on his route to her betrayal is not believable.

The only way to rationalise Tyrion's behaviour throught Seasons 7 and 8 is that he was trying to ensure that his siblings did not lose. One could understand that, but it makes Tyrion a traitor - who should never have accepted his position as Hand.  He was prepared to sacrifice thousands in his effort to save Jaime and Cersei.  

[SeanF]

34 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Ha.  Right?  Caesar would have burned KL to the ground, killed every adult in the city, enslaved the rest and not broken a sweat or needed any dragons to get the job done. 

You don't even need to go back to ancient times.  I'm doing my MA on the Peninsular War.  Every side behaved with utter ruthlessness. 

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

You don't even need to go back to ancient times.  I'm doing my MA on the Peninsular War.  Every side behaved with utter ruthlessness. 

Ciudad Rodrigo and Badajoz come to mind. The entire episode Sharpe’s Company revolves around the fact that rape pillage and burn is inevitable and Sharpe has to figure how to get his wife and daughter out of the city before they get raped and/or murdered, specifically by his old enemy Obadiah Hakeswill, who’s a specialist in this type of behavior (when he isn’t eyeing up his fellow soldiers’ wives to rape).