Jump to content

Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!


The Fattest Leech

Recommended Posts

On 3/16/2021 at 1:17 PM, Le Cygne said:

I agree, but would not offer that as an excuse. Directly related to these bad representations of women is that the old boys network keeps giving the showrunner jobs to men like Benioff and Weiss.

They were called on these issues all along. I have posted articles sounding the alarm in season 1, here's a good one:

https://www.slantmagazine.com/tv/game-of-thrones-season-one/

Here's a later article, and there were lots of articles like this all along (this article was written before The Bells, which is one huge example of failing women characters):

https://www.thedailybeast.com/game-of-throness-ugliest-legacy-failing-women

Here's one pointing out issues with The Bells (there were so many more, this is just handy):

https://www.thedailybeast.com/game-of-thrones-the-bells-baffling-decision-to-turn-daenerys-into-a-crazy-murderous-ex-girlfriend

The viewers called them on it, too. There were uncritical media takes from those more interested in being fans and keeping access, but there were also honest critiques.

And apart from this, they knew, they aren't babes in the woods, they are grown men who thumbed their noses at critics, every time. There were many examples.

They blamed women for doing things they never would have done, then had the women thank them for doing it to them. It doesn't get more deliberate than that.

And HBO basically said whatever you want, boys.

"Troy" is a good example of Benioff's taking gold and turning it into dross.

Why on earth would you want to adapt the Iliad, and remove all the Divine and supernatural elements?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

That was the least of Troy's problems.

On wikipedia " In one of the commentary sequences, the film's writer, David Benioff, said that when it came to deciding whether to follow The Iliad or to do what was best for the film, they always decided with what was best for the film. "

Which is really the problem.  He thought he could improve on Homer, just as he thought he could improve on A Song of Ice and Fire.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

On wikipedia " In one of the commentary sequences, the film's writer, David Benioff, said that when it came to deciding whether to follow The Iliad or to do what was best for the film, they always decided with what was best for the film. "

Which is really the problem.  He thought he could improve on Homer, just as he thought he could improve on A Song of Ice and Fire.

Just as he thinks he can improve on every adaptation he will make for the rest of his career.

Oh Netflix, what were you thinking?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Speaking about the Iliad - can somebody please take a shitload of money and really properly adapt Homer and Vergil and a couple of other ancient epics to the screen as they are written?

That kind of thing could really blow people away.

Not because of the hexameters ... we don't necessarily need those - but simply because of the power of the material.

Even more so if somebody did an animated version of that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Speaking about the Iliad - can somebody please take a shitload of money and really properly adapt Homer and Vergil and a couple of other ancient epics to the screen as they are written?

That kind of thing could really blow people away.

Not because of the hexameters ... we don't necessarily need those - but simply because of the power of the material.

Even more so if somebody did an animated version of that.

There's a real dearth of good films set in the ancient world, when the source material is actually fabulous.  People seem able to write good books set in the ancient world, but unable to produce good films.  Compare Gates of Fire or Funeral Games with 300 or Alexander, for example.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Speaking about the Iliad - can somebody please take a shitload of money and really properly adapt Homer and Vergil and a couple of other ancient epics to the screen as they are written?

That kind of thing could really blow people away.

Not because of the hexameters ... we don't necessarily need those - but simply because of the power of the material.

Even more so if somebody did an animated version of that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Odyssey_(1997_miniseries)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Oh, I watched that back in the day. It wasn't that bad, but I was thinking about a really big, faithful adaptation of things, with an intention to not modernize things but to really try to create 'the Homeric spirit'.

I think some of the epic films of the past sort of did that, and they also tried something like that pretty decently with Rome, but with the means they have to today the potential to bring certain classics faithfully to live is actually staggering.

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

There's a real dearth of good films set in the ancient world, when the source material is actually fabulous.  People seem able to write good books set in the ancient world, but unable to produce good films.  Compare Gates of Fire or Funeral Games with 300 or Alexander, for example.

I actually like Alexander pretty well, but the movie could have been much more if there had been a bigger budget and more time - as a series it could have been much better. I think Stone very much followed the interpretation of Robin Lane Fox's biography - which you don't have to agree with, of course, but Alexander is pretty much an enigma, anyway.

And 300 is a comic book adaptation of a work by Frank Miller ;-).

But, of course, there were epic movies that do work pretty well as adaptations of modern takes on the source material. Even Quo vadis? works pretty well as an adaptation of the book - although not necessarily of Nero's reign as such...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, I watched that back in the day. It wasn't that bad, but I was thinking about a really big, faithful adaptation of things, with an intention to not modernize things but to really try to create 'the Homeric spirit'.

So not like the Netflix/BBC Fall of Troy. That one definitely did not feel epic, or very much Homeric despite putting the gods in.

23 hours ago, Ghostlydragon said:

Just as he thinks he can improve on every adaptation he will make for the rest of his career.

Oh Netflix, what were you thinking?

So you see, it makes sense for Netflix to recruit Benioff.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, I watched that back in the day. It wasn't that bad, but I was thinking about a really big, faithful adaptation of things, with an intention to not modernize things but to really try to create 'the Homeric spirit'.

I think some of the epic films of the past sort of did that, and they also tried something like that pretty decently with Rome, but with the means they have to today the potential to bring certain classics faithfully to live is actually staggering.

I actually like Alexander pretty well, but the movie could have been much more if there had been a bigger budget and more time - as a series it could have been much better. I think Stone very much followed the interpretation of Robin Lane Fox's biography - which you don't have to agree with, of course, but Alexander is pretty much an enigma, anyway.

And 300 is a comic book adaptation of a work by Frank Miller ;-).

But, of course, there were epic movies that do work pretty well as adaptations of modern takes on the source material. Even Quo vadis? works pretty well as an adaptation of the book - although not necessarily of Nero's reign as such...

Either it should have been a series about Alexander as you say, or else just focused on a key point in his life.

Quo Vadis is fun, admittedly, due to Peter Ustinov's wonderfully OTT performance as Nero.  I'm sure that a modern film or series about Nero would go down very well (the marriage to Sporus, incest and murder of Agrippina, burning Christians alive). Spartacus is a good film, although the "oysters and snails" scene is pretty stupid.  Any Roman master who took a fancy to a male slave would tell him to get his clothes off and wait for him in his bedroom.  Spartacus the series is better in depicting the treatment of slaves, but makes the mistake of portraying gladiators as invincible fighters who don't need to bother with armour.  In reality, Spartacus achieved his success by training his men to fight like legionaries.

Rome was fun, but I think went overboard in depicting the main protagonists as all sociopaths.  I Claudius remains the best series set in the ancient world.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Either it should have been a series about Alexander as you say, or else just focused on a key point in his life.

Yeah, but I really like this 'history is uncertain' angle Stone is trying with Ptolemy as the narrator and stuff. It isn't perfect, but the guy really tries to make a complex, layered movie there.

27 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Quo Vadis is fun, admittedly, due to Peter Ustinov's wonderfully OTT performance as Nero.  I'm sure that a modern film or series about Nero would go down very well (the marriage to Sporus, incest and murder of Agrippina, burning Christians alive).

Oh, well, the whole Christian stuff I'd not include, considering there are pretty much no contemporary sources for this. A Quo vadis? adaptation needs that, of course, but a Nero movie doesn't really need it. There is also great potential there to create a complex version of Seneca - great philosopher and ruthless politican. A great writer could do tremendous characterization there.

27 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Spartacus is a good film, although the "oysters and snails" scene is pretty stupid.  Any Roman master who took a fancy to a male slave would tell him to get his clothes off and wait for him in his bedroom. 

Of course, but it was around 1960 back then - and they even had issue with the scene.

27 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Rome was fun, but I think went overboard in depicting the main protagonists as all sociopaths.  I Claudius remains the best series set in the ancient world.

Rome simplifies the nobility too much, especially in Julio-Claudian family - that's not great. In the end, Tiberius seems to be an only child and Octavian's Julia is non-existent.

I, Claudius is great, but the problem there is the ridiculous portrayal of Livia in the source material - and the idea that there are still any 'republicans' in the imperial family during the reign of Augustus and afterwards. But taking it as a model for a series on the dynasty is great.

They could do a lot of great stuff by taking some inspiration from that, and not vilify all the folks to the point Robert Graves did. Make Livia more loyal wife, fiercely protecting the interests of her husband, and Julia not a stupid nymphomaniac but rather a woman with her own political ambitions, the deaths of her sons tragedies, Tiberius a guy who just isn't very well-suited for the job of ruler, etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/16/2021 at 11:22 AM, Le Cygne said:

They are arrested development boys, too. They can't imagine the joys of being a child, much less an adult.

Why did these characters want to be alive? To not answer that question in a meaningful way after 8 seasons is to fail, resoundingly. They are fighting for nothing.

Charles Foster Kane wasn't satisfied with power alone. Rosebud must have flown over their heads, too. Hell, the whole movie. Every movie. Everything. They are so clueless.

They mocked hopes and dreams. Sansa didn't want a tiara, she wanted love. Arya didn't want a boat trip out of the blue, she wanted to be with her pack. Dany wanted someone to belong to and a home, too.

You can bet if Dany dies in the books, GRRM will let her remember her sun and stars. But not the show.

Their story was just hell, then YAWN in the end, as they metered out empty endings. Empty endings for empty characters written by empty writers who couldn't tell a story.

Suggestion for Sansa: why couldn’t Benioff and Weiss have Sansa fall in love with somebody like Podrick in Season 8? He’s someone she’s known for a few years, close in age (Tyrion, The Hound), not related to her (Jon), a generally sweet-tempered guy, not going to stand in the way of her being queen, Benioff and Weiss can make jokes about Pod the Rod being the man who can please Sansa after her marriage to Ramsay, win-win.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/18/2021 at 10:48 AM, SeanF said:

On wikipedia " In one of the commentary sequences, the film's writer, David Benioff, said that when it came to deciding whether to follow The Iliad or to do what was best for the film, they always decided with what was best for the film. "

Which is really the problem.  He thought he could improve on Homer, just as he thought he could improve on A Song of Ice and Fire.

Hilarious, he would say that about the show all the time, too. What I do is best for the film. What I do is best for the show.

His go-to excuse is so dull. It shows no imagination whatsoever.The dog ate my homework is an epic excuse compared to that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Suggestion for Sansa: why couldn’t Benioff and Weiss have Sansa fall in love with somebody like Podrick in Season 8? He’s someone she’s known for a few years, close in age (Tyrion, The Hound), not related to her (Jon), a generally sweet-tempered guy, not going to stand in the way of her being queen, Benioff and Weiss can make jokes about Pod the Rod being the man who can please Sansa after her marriage to Ramsay, win-win.

I was convinced they would have Sansa begging Tyrion to forgive her for turning him down, and asking for a second chance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, SeanF said:

I was convinced they would have Sansa begging Tyrion to forgive her for turning him down, and asking for a second chance.

They killed off Sansa's love interest in the books on a meme. Here's GRRM's story, it's a very detailed Beauty and the Beast (Sansa and the Hound): https://romancingthecage.tumblr.com/post/90157713456

Nothing made sense anymore, once they injected their own biases and made the characters the actors. Tyrion was their boy, their self-insert. And they came to the story with his grudges, ready for payback.

In the source material, the author tells stories of how expressions of sexuality that come from the women's own choices empower them. Instead, Benioff and Weiss changed this to rape is empowering.

Which really is just a line, they just hate women. There is no genuine message in the show other than they are hacks hacking. They dog at my homework-ed... best for the show-ed... the whole thing.

Look at what they did to the women who rejected Tyrion, and in every case, they made the women honor him first. It wasn't enough to destroy them as characters, they had to pay homage to him, too.

They made Sansa bizarrely give herself to the Boltons, they made Dany go bonkers because a gaping fool rejected her, they made Shae adore then try to murder Tyrion... and always they blamed the women.

It should also be mentioned how badly they screwed over Jaime, because he rejected Cersei.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

They killed off Sansa's love interest in the books on a meme. Here's GRRM's story, it's a very detailed Beauty and the Beast (Sansa and the Hound): https://romancingthecage.tumblr.com/post/90157713456

Nothing made sense anymore, once they injected their own biases and made the characters the actors. Tyrion was their boy, their self-insert. And they came to the story with his grudges ready for payback.

In the source material, the author tells stories of how expressions of sexuality that come from the women's own choices empower them. Instead, Benioff and Weiss changed this to rape is empowering.

Which really is just a line, they just hate women. There is no genuine message in the show other than they are hacks hacking. They dog at my homework-ed... best for the show-ed... the whole thing.

Look at what they did to the women who rejected Tyrion, and in every case, they made the women honor him first. It wasn't enough to destroy them as characters, they had to pay homage to him, too.

They made Sansa bizarrely give herself to the Boltons, they made Dany go bonkers because a gaping fool rejected her, they made Shae adore then try to murder Tyrion... and always they blamed the women.

It should also be mentioned how badly they screwed over Jaime, because he rejected Cersei.

I think they saw Tyrion and Cersei as the hero and heroine of the tale.  Suffice to say, that's not the story that the author is telling.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...