Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

[Angel Eyes]

Now, something from the episode in-between:

• How does one forget about an entire fleet, especially one that can teleport from one side of the continent to the other?
• Conversely, if we're following the same rules, why couldn't Daenerys ask Yara to blockade King's Landing if she had retaken the Iron Islands and had their backing? If the fleet can teleport as Euron's can (or that's one of his acquired powers for all I know), they could have Yara blockade, choose not to engage the fleet and prevent it from resupplying.

[Angel Eyes]

On 5/8/2021 at 6:41 PM, Le Cygne said:

Also another thought, GRRM called Tyrion the grayest of the grays (I have quoted the source before, he definitely said this) and he also said murdering Shae was his darkest deed.

Darker than what he does in Volantis with the dead-eyed prostitute?

[Angel Eyes]

9 hours ago, SeanF said:

If Dark Daenerys had been done similarly to the way that Kim Wexler's character arc is being handled, in Better Call Saul, I think it could have been a very good character arc.  It's possible for any military leader to become corrupted and brutalised by war, and to resort to measures that would once have filled them with horror (you could argue that even our own military leaders were like that in WWII).  But, that takes good writing.

The problem is there was no point to burning civilians at random at the end.  The war was won.  IMHO, a better tale would have been if Daenerys was facing bitter street fighting, and had the choice.  Retreat in order to save civilian lives, and risk losing the war, or unleash fire on the enemy, knowing that tens of thousands of civilians will die in the inferno.  She makes the choice to unleash fire.  That keeps it as a deliberate decision on her part, but also shows the dilemma that many commanders  face.

I remember a similar video focusing on the tactics of Daenerys' forces.

 

[Mindwalker]

2 hours ago, Count Balerion said:

evil dany was a last minute decision. the original idea seems to have been dany accidentally setting off wildfire while burning red keep. we know tat it was widfire and not dany that was burning civilians indiscriminately.

They probably didn't know how to kill her off, so they changed plans.

No, it was probably that they thought they needed more SHOCK because SHOCKing twist is awesome, see Red Wedding!

[Cas Stark]

I don't believe that Dany turning evil was a last minute decision, as I am absolutely sure, though I know many here disagree, that this is how GRRM is going to end her story as well.  Their problem was that they S.U.C.K. at character development and foreshadowing.  All of the decent foreshadowing that existed in the show came from the books.  The D's 'foreshadowing 'was like everything else they did on their own: sophomoric, obvious, illogical and stupid.  Adding in that that they wanted the end to be a surprise!!!, gave up trying to write the story after season 6 and relied completely on action...and there is the recipe for Dany turning evil in 1.5 episodes of an 8 year show, and indeed, turning evil in the most stupid, pointless and silly way imaginable and then also dying in an even more stupid, silly, asinine manner.

[HoodedCrow]

The only bit that I liked was Drogon torching the throne and carrying Dany away. He forgot to roast Jon, but I guess it was complicated?

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, Mindwalker said:

They probably didn't know how to kill her off, so they changed plans.

No, it was probably that they thought they needed more SHOCK because SHOCKing twist is awesome, see Red Wedding!

They could have killed her off via her lighting one of the wildfire caches by accident (remember the green plumes of explosion going off every so often when she starts torching the city) and it goes off in her face, say when she's perched on one of the buildings when she'd won the battle and before she decided to burn everything.

[SeanF]

9 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I don't believe that Dany turning evil was a last minute decision, as I am absolutely sure, though I know many here disagree, that this is how GRRM is going to end her story as well.  Their problem was that they S.U.C.K. at character development and foreshadowing.  All of the decent foreshadowing that existed in the show came from the books.  The D's 'foreshadowing 'was like everything else they did on their own: sophomoric, obvious, illogical and stupid.  Adding in that that they wanted the end to be a surprise!!!, gave up trying to write the story after season 6 and relied completely on action...and there is the recipe for Dany turning evil in 1.5 episodes of an 8 year show, and indeed, turning evil in the most stupid, pointless and silly way imaginable and then also dying in an even more stupid, silly, asinine manner.

I think Dany is likely to become an antagonist to other sympathetic characters in the story (if we ever get it) because ultimately, only one person can wear the crown.  One character I like in the books is Arianne Martell, but I'm pretty sure it was no accident that Martin had her thinking "Nymeria burned as bright as any man, and so shall I". I think she'll come to a bad end at Dany's hands, along with fAegon and their allies.  What I doubt is that we would get anything as crude and unsubtle as Madam Hitler/Suddenly Satan.

[SeanF]

18 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

I love that Kim's darker side has come out. Did Jimmy bring it out, or was she drawn to Jimmy because she wanted to bring it out, or both. I like when stories explore the darker side of characters.

Dany was bullied by her brother and she and other characters in the story (like Sandor, Arya) respond to such bullying by trying to help others. But they are not perfect, so they help in imperfect ways.

It's just so interesting to see it play out. I think what GRRM is trying to show is that ruling is not an easy thing to do, and sometimes things just don't turn out perfectly. But he has a lot of compassion for Dany.

I would have liked to see this exploration continue, rather than making her Suddenly Satan, which was just really stupid.

(Also as you point out, you can't hold one character to different standards than the other characters. It's yet more evidence they were just throwing stuff at the wall. The show was not art, it was a wet fart.)

Arya is a great example of someone who in some respects is far more enlightened than any other noble character in this tale.  She actually treats the Smallfolk as equals, befriends them, and sticks up for them.   In that, she's pretty well unique.  The best of the nobility in this world display paternalistic concern for their subjects, but not even someone like Ned would see them as equals.

But then, there's the darker side to her, that's eager to deal out punishment and sees killing as an easy way to solve problems.  She's complicated.  D & D of course turned her into a gloating sadist, and thought that was positive character development.

Every one of the main six protagonists has a darker side.  Bran is willing to warg Hodor, something the author has described as an "obscenity".  Sansa possesses quite a bit of kindness and empathy, but is also quite prepared to connive with Littlefinger's crimes, if it keeps her alive and in a position of comfort. Tyrion of course, is the greyest of the grey.  He is not at all the saintly pacifist that the show runners tried to present him as (and he committed far too many crimes even in the show for that to be credible).

Dany fits in with the others.

[Cas Stark]

I guess the only solace that can be taken is that the D's really and truly....despite the warning signs from the actors reactions ....  believed they would be lauded as auteurs, surprisers, trope subverters, deconstructors instead of insane hacks who ruined a beloved and valuable artistic property.

[Mindwalker]

2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I guess the only solace that can be taken is that the D's really and truly....despite the warning signs from the actors reactions ....  believed they would be lauded as auteurs, surprisers, trope subverters, deconstructors instead of insane hacks who ruined a beloved and valuable artistic property.

Well, I'm sure they're telling themselves that their audience is just too stupid to understand the unique value of their work.

[Angel Eyes]

7 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I guess the only solace that can be taken is that the D's really and truly....despite the warning signs from the actors reactions ....  believed they would be lauded as auteurs, surprisers, trope subverters, deconstructors instead of insane hacks who ruined a beloved and valuable artistic property.

Unfortunately I think it's the deconstruction nature of the story; since Game of Thrones is famous for having the unexpected happen (Ned being built up as a main character only to be axed before the first season was over, the Red Wedding) Benioff and Weiss believed that the bigger shock, the better, damn all logic.

And I'll tell you this: it isn't hard to write Rule of Cool, it just has to make sense based on what's been established. For example: pour boiling oil since wights are vulnerable to fire? Cool visual, makes sense in-story.

[Le Cygne]

On 5/10/2021 at 4:18 PM, Mindwalker said:

They probably didn't know how to kill her off, so they changed plans.

No, it was probably that they thought they needed more SHOCK because SHOCKing twist is awesome, see Red Wedding!

Like Arya Ninja Turtle, where they admitted they kept trying to find a way to SHOCK us.

If someone has to sit there and think, hey, I want a twist here, it's just no damn good. 

A story has to lead you where it goes, and that includes any sudden change in direction.

They weren't writing a story, that's the problem.

[SeanF]

8 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Unfortunately I think it's the deconstruction nature of the story; since Game of Thrones is famous for having the unexpected happen (Ned being built up as a main character only to be axed before the first season was over, the Red Wedding) Benioff and Weiss believed that the bigger shock, the better, damn all logic.

And I'll tell you this: it isn't hard to write Rule of Cool, it just has to make sense based on what's been established. For example: pour boiling oil since wights are vulnerable to fire? Cool visual, makes sense in-story.

Plenty of people have pointed out the shock of Ned's death is caused by the fact that we expect the man who has been treated as the hero of the story up to that point to survive.  Instead, he dies. But, his death is the logical outcome of the mistakes which he made.  It's not a shock that comes out of the left field.

There's a brilliant example of this in KJ Parker's novel The Hammer.  The protagonist's sister is murdered.  It's like a punch in the stomach when you read it, but when you think about it, the author has laid out all the steps and all the clues that lead up to the murder.  It doesn't come out of nowhere at all.

Those are good shocks.  Bad shocks are those that come out of the left field, and for which there has been no build-up.  Those are the shocks that D & D liked. 

[Cas Stark]

10 hours ago, SeanF said:

Plenty of people have pointed out the shock of Ned's death is caused by the fact that we expect the man who has been treated as the hero of the story up to that point to survive.  Instead, he dies. But, his death is the logical outcome of the mistakes which he made.  It's not a shock that comes out of the left field.

There's a brilliant example of this in KJ Parker's novel The Hammer.  The protagonist's sister is murdered.  It's like a punch in the stomach when you read it, but when you think about it, the author has laid out all the steps and all the clues that lead up to the murder.  It doesn't come out of nowhere at all.

Those are good shocks.  Bad shocks are those that come out of the left field, and for which there has been no build-up.  Those are the shocks that D & D liked. 

True.  But it is worth remembering that the critics/audience/bloggers played a role in enabling GOT to go off the rails.  The show continued to get great reviews and awards right up until the bells episode.

Arya killing the NK is almost as stupid as Dany randomly flying off the handle and destroying the city she previously sacrificed her allies to protect.  Ahem.

Yet, this extremely stupid, ungrounded surprised was cheered on by critics and most of the audience, despite the fact that it gutted Jon Snow's entire reason for being undead, and was a transformers level dumb move.  Arya is my fav character so if I can recognize that this was a horrible decision, I'm not sure why it wasn't universally condemned as audience fan service and terrible storytelling.  Just because she was a somewhat gender bending tom boy female character doesn't mean it should have been applauded. 

[SeanF]

53 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

True.  But it is worth remembering that the critics/audience/bloggers played a role in enabling GOT to go off the rails.  The show continued to get great reviews and awards right up until the bells episode.

Arya killing the NK is almost as stupid as Dany randomly flying off the handle and destroying the city she previously sacrificed her allies to protect.  Ahem.

Yet, this extremely stupid, ungrounded surprised was cheered on by critics and most of the audience, despite the fact that it gutted Jon Snow's entire reason for being undead, and was a transformers level dumb move.  Arya is my fav character so if I can recognize that this was a horrible decision, I'm not sure why it wasn't universally condemned as audience fan service and terrible storytelling.  Just because she was a somewhat gender bending tom boy female character doesn't mean it should have been applauded. 

The Long Night did attract a lot of criticism, even from casual viewers, although more for the fact it was hard to see what was happening, and the absurd tactics, more than for Arya Ninja Turtle. And, I think a lot of people crticised the wight hunt as ridiculous. 

Within the show's continuity, there was actually no reason for Jon to have been resurrected.  Which, as you say, guts the whole story.  If Jon stays dead, Dany finally loses patience and flattens the Red Keep, before destroying the Boltons, and installing any surviving Stark as Lord or Lady of Winterfell. The White Walkers remain stuck North of the Wall - presumably finding a way through eventually, but facing the united resources of the Seven Kingdoms.

[Le Cygne]

33 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The Long Night did attract a lot of criticism, even from casual viewers, although more for the fact it was hard to see what was happening, and the absurd tactics, more than for Arya Ninja Turtle. And, I think a lot of people crticised the wight hunt as ridiculous. 

Within the show's continuity, there was actually no reason for Jon to have been resurrected.  Which, as you say, guts the whole story.  If Jon stays dead, Dany finally loses patience and flattens the Red Keep, before destroying the Boltons, and installing any surviving Stark as Lord or Lady of Winterfell. The White Walkers remain stuck North of the Wall - presumably finding a way through eventually, but facing the united resources of the Seven Kingdoms.

There was a huge flap over the darkness, the stupid tactics, Arya killing the NK, etc.

So much for Jon, everyone said! So much for prophesy! Over in an instant. Anticlimax! Waste of his whole arc! Why her? Why is it so dark? Why did they do this? Why did they do that? And so on.

Before and after that, yet another manufactured cat fight between female leads, Cersei just standing around doing nothing, Jaime negating his entire arc, Sansa thanking LF and Ramsay for rape empowerment, ...

That the final two episodes surpassed suspicions that the worst ending ever was ahead only added to the feelings of discontent. And prior to that season, it had been noted the writing had declined after they ran out of material.

So yeah, there was lots of criticism, mixed in with sunk costs for viewers.

For the media, there was always a symbiotic relationship. The puff pieces made money for the media companies. Hype it up, keep access, ride the gravy train. Hibberd articles for EW is the perfect example.

[Angel Eyes]

20 hours ago, SeanF said:

The Long Night did attract a lot of criticism, even from casual viewers, although more for the fact it was hard to see what was happening, and the absurd tactics, more than for Arya Ninja Turtle. And, I think a lot of people crticised the wight hunt as ridiculous. 

Within the show's continuity, there was actually no reason for Jon to have been resurrected.  Which, as you say, guts the whole story.  If Jon stays dead, Dany finally loses patience and flattens the Red Keep, before destroying the Boltons, and installing any surviving Stark as Lord or Lady of Winterfell. The White Walkers remain stuck North of the Wall - presumably finding a way through eventually, but facing the united resources of the Seven Kingdoms.

For that last one, that depends. The White Walkers' original plan was to go around the Wall and they were close anyways.

[Ghostlydragon]

3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

For that last one, that depends. The White Walkers' original plan was to go around the Wall and they were close anyways.

Exactly.  And if not that way then another. Bran passing through the wall destroys the magic keeping the dead out, the wight giant busts the gate at castle black apart, the horn is seized by Euron at the citadel and he destroys the wall, or as you said they go around it.

The dead would have gotten through no matter what.

[Le Cygne]

Interesting comments on this one:

Here's one comment, but they are all telling:

I will never forget what it is like to stay up until 4AM and stuff myself with coffee and slowly realizing over the course of 6 weeks that not only it won't get better but it will get progressively worse. The slow murder of my enthusiasm, going to bed both tired and utterly disappointed to the point where I felt dead inside and I didn't care at all... No other media will disappoint me as much ever.