Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

[Le Cygne]

On 5/27/2021 at 9:01 PM, Count Balerion said:

FIRE CANNOT KILL A DRAGON, CHAPTER 30. A LOT OF SOPHISTRY TRYING TO "DEFEND" EVIL DANY AND JUST SHUT THE BLAZES UP ALREADY, PART 5

my comments are in square brackets.

missandei's death. ms. emmanuel thought it was cool. anderson thinks one or the other was going to go, either GW or missandei. "cruel inevitability." ms. emmanuel would have preferred a 1-on-1 scene w/ dany in season 8. mr. nutter (director) thinks b/c she's not royalty and is just a pawn, how it worked is good.

losing missandei infuriated dany, who readied her attack. she turned to jon for love. EC: "there was just this last thread shewas holding onto, this boy." she hoped she'd finally found someone who accepted her for who she was. "and he *f***ing doesn't*."

which led to the crud in "the bells". city bells rang surrender [davos from season 2: "i've never known the bells to mean surrender." preston pointed this out.] dany firebombs city punishing all for cersei's sins.

ms. emmanuel: "you kind of went over the top there. i meant cersei, not, like, *everyone*."

"committing mass murder to punish a defiant enemy has a history in the targaryen family." [no, it doesn't. not on this scale.] aegon the conqueror burnt down harrenhall and roasted everyone inside. [burning a castle is hardly comparable to burning a city!!]

weiss: dany gave up so much "and she's looking at the red keep w/ the lannister logo [logo????] on it where her family's star of the seven [waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaait ... i know you're maybe on the spot; but this is basic lore you're getting wrong], her family's birthright was taken from her by the people who have done this to her." [NOT by the ppl of KL]

david benioff [God help us]: "and in spite of all these injustices, she tried her best to make peace w/ cersei -- and got betrayed for it." [this is just another argument *against* evil dany]

weiss: dany sacrificed her ppl and tried to be good and jaime defected.

benioff: ppl who would have tempered worst impulses like jorah [??; he wanted her to get a slave army] and missandei or tyrion either weren;t there or she doesn't trust them. [she was right not to trust tyrion. dany was doing good on her own initiative]

weiss: "dozens and dozens of factors going back to her birth to what she's seeing in her eyes right now a mile away and how that made her feel, all of them stepping on the scale tilting her into a terrible decision." [this makes no sense]

Too bad nobody tempered Tyrion's worst impulses to arm the mountain clans, kill the rightful king's army with wildfire to keep Joffrey on the throne, kidnap and murder Shae, etc.

It's like Benioff and Weiss are trying to be funny. They forgot their own show. I mean, it's totally forgettable and all, but still. They are like the worst snake oil salesmen on the planet.

[SeanF]

4 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Too bad nobody tempered Tyrion's worst impulses to arm the mountain clans, kill the rightful king's army with wildfire to keep Joffrey on the throne, kidnap and murder Shae, etc.

It's like Benioff and Weiss are trying to be funny. They forgot their own show. I mean, it's totally forgettable and all, but still. They are like the worst snake oil salesmen on the planet.

One can forgive a writer who, say, forgets the name of a horse, a last mentioned five hundred pages previously.  But, they "forgot" almost everything important.  

 

[Count Balerion]

i sometimes find myself wondering what "kinda forgot" even means. she knew there was something, but couldn't quite put her fnger on it ... it was ... oh! right! the enemy. whoops.

FIRE CANNOT KILL A DRAGON, CHAPTER 30. A LOT OF SOPHISTRY TRYING TO "DEFEND" EVIL DANY AND JUST SHUT THE BLAZES UP ALREADY, PART 6

my comments are in square brackets.

ms. emmanuel was very sad, but thinks you can understand it b/c dany's lost everyone that meant anything to her.

dinklage: we all love dany. "and she's doing these things for the greater good." [burning a city after it had surrendered?] "when freeing everyone for the greater good, you're going to hurt innocents along the way." [that would apply if there were collateral damage, not to deliberately and lovingly mowing down civilians, including women and children.]

hill: this shows war is futile.

cogman: "she's a tragic figure in a very shakespearean/greek sense. [where the bleep was that?]

dany's hitler speech wasn't too different from previous ones. "but before her rhetoric had been hypothetical and, perhaps, exaggeration?" [do you not know?] now fire and blood threat is real.

KH: "jon was watching the speech. he doesn't know valyrian. david and dan said, 'just pretend you know it.' just the way she's speaking and whaat she's doing was telling him everything he needs to know." [this is not very coherent.]

[SeanF]

11 hours ago, Count Balerion said:

i sometimes find myself wondering what "kinda forgot" even means. she knew there was something, but couldn't quite put her fnger on it ... it was ... oh! right! the enemy. whoops.

FIRE CANNOT KILL A DRAGON, CHAPTER 30. A LOT OF SOPHISTRY TRYING TO "DEFEND" EVIL DANY AND JUST SHUT THE BLAZES UP ALREADY, PART 6

my comments are in square brackets.

ms. emmanuel was very sad, but thinks you can understand it b/c dany's lost everyone that meant anything to her.

dinklage: we all love dany. "and she's doing these things for the greater good." [burning a city after it had surrendered?] "when freeing everyone for the greater good, you're going to hurt innocents along the way." [that would apply if there were collateral damage, not to deliberately and lovingly mowing down civilians, including women and children.]

hill: this shows war is futile.

cogman: "she's a tragic figure in a very shakespearean/greek sense. [where the bleep was that?]

dany's hitler speech wasn't too different from previous ones. "but before her rhetoric had been hypothetical and, perhaps, exaggeration?" [do you not know?] now fire and blood threat is real.

KH: "jon was watching the speech. he doesn't know valyrian. david and dan said, 'just pretend you know it.' just the way she's speaking and whaat she's doing was telling him everything he needs to know." [this is not very coherent.]

A tragic hero/heroine, is a fundamentally decent person who is brought down by a fatal flaw.  Not someone who suddenly becomes Hitler/Satan to hit a particular plot point.  Among other things, they don't understand tragedy.

[Le Cygne]

Asked whether he had watched the controversial final episode of the series’ eighth season, Bean asked the Times: “No, what happened?”

Batting away the writers’ concerns that they will spoil it for Bean should he want to watch the show in the future, the actor replied: “I’ll have forgotten by then, go on.”...

The hugely popular fantasy series came to an abrupt end in 2018, and many fans complained about its hasty final season. Millions of viewers signed a petition demanding that season eight be reshot.

Game of Thrones star Charles Dance, who famously portrayed Tywin Lannister, joined the chorus, stating that he was also “disappointed” by the closing chapter.

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/sean-bean-game-of-thrones-b1856268.html

[Cas Stark]

8 hours ago, SeanF said:

A tragic hero/heroine, is a fundamentally decent person who is brought down by a fatal flaw.  Not someone who suddenly becomes Hitler/Satan to hit a particular plot point.  Among other things, they don't understand tragedy.

I do think GRRM is going to go this direction.   I'm not sure, what do you think her fatal flaw is or will be?  The reasons I stopped liking her is that she seemed to become more impulsive and judgmental/harsh as her campaign went on.  She's always believed she is 'special' but then so do a lot of GOT characters.  

**And as we head into June we're getting into the territory of GRRM is going to miss another year for Winds.  He now has about 3-4 months to get it out for the holiday shopping season.  Oy.

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Asked whether he had watched the controversial final episode of the series’ eighth season, Bean asked the Times: “No, what happened?”

Batting away the writers’ concerns that they will spoil it for Bean should he want to watch the show in the future, the actor replied: “I’ll have forgotten by then, go on.”...

The hugely popular fantasy series came to an abrupt end in 2018, and many fans complained about its hasty final season. Millions of viewers signed a petition demanding that season eight be reshot.

Game of Thrones star Charles Dance, who famously portrayed Tywin Lannister, joined the chorus, stating that he was also “disappointed” by the closing chapter.

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/sean-bean-game-of-thrones-b1856268.html

There’s quite a few actors who were disappointed by the ending; mainly with how they ended.

[SeanF]

54 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I do think GRRM is going to go this direction.   I'm not sure, what do you think her fatal flaw is or will be?  The reasons I stopped liking her is that she seemed to become more impulsive and judgmental/harsh as her campaign went on.  She's always believed she is 'special' but then so do a lot of GOT characters.  

**And as we head into June we're getting into the territory of GRRM is going to miss another year for Winds.  He now has about 3-4 months to get it out for the holiday shopping season.  Oy.

If she has a fatal flaw in the books, I'd suggest it's similar to that of Turin Turambar - namely, extreme self-doubt. Now, that is a feature of her character that the two D's completely ignored, but it can be absolutely fatal for a political or military leader.  A fundamental lack of confidence in their own judgement, which can lead them to overcompensate in the direction of being either too harsh, or too lenient, depending on the situation, and to endlessly second-guess their decisions.

[Cas Stark]

27 minutes ago, SeanF said:

If she has a fatal flaw in the books, I'd suggest it's similar to that of Turin Turambar - namely, extreme self-doubt. Now, that is a feature of her character that the two D's completely ignored, but it can be absolutely fatal for a political or military leader.  A fundamental lack of confidence in their own judgement, which can lead them to overcompensate in the direction of being either too harsh, or too lenient, depending on the situation, and to endlessly second-guess their decisions.

Hmm.  I never though of her as having very much self doubt since the first book, although it has now been a few  years since I read any of her chapters, but she does veer from too harsh to too lenient.  

[Count Balerion]

my sense is that she does doubt herself a fair bit of the time. she's also willing to listen to advisors but doesn't seem to have any good ones. barristan being perhaps the best but he's over his head too.

but yah, tragedy requires greater skill than anyone in the writing room had.

[SeanF]

15 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Hmm.  I never though of her as having very much self doubt since the first book, although it has now been a few  years since I read any of her chapters, but she does veer from too harsh to too lenient.  

I was impressed by Tom Shippey's critique of Turin.  It's not that Turin lacks courage - rather he lacks steadfastness.  And, I think that applies to Dany as well.  Branding herself as a monster, endlessly beating herself up over Eroeh and Viserys, chaining up her dragons because of the death of Hazzeah, thinking she can appeal to slavers and their supporters as well as freedmen, when she really has to pick a side etc.

The type of wartime leader you need is someone like Harry Truman, who will carefully weigh up the options, then act, and won't lose much sleep over his choice.

[SeanF]

15 hours ago, Count Balerion said:

my sense is that she does doubt herself a fair bit of the time. she's also willing to listen to advisors but doesn't seem to have any good ones. barristan being perhaps the best but he's over his head too.

but yah, tragedy requires greater skill than anyone in the writing room had.

Jorah is the devil on her shoulder (and I expect Tyrion will serve that function in the future), whereas Barristan and Missandei are the angels.

[Angel Eyes]

20 hours ago, SeanF said:

If she has a fatal flaw in the books, I'd suggest it's similar to that of Turin Turambar - namely, extreme self-doubt. Now, that is a feature of her character that the two D's completely ignored, but it can be absolutely fatal for a political or military leader.  A fundamental lack of confidence in their own judgement, which can lead them to overcompensate in the direction of being either too harsh, or too lenient, depending on the situation, and to endlessly second-guess their decisions.

I think they actually discussed this with Alliser Thorne and Jon in "The Watchers on the Wall".

[SeanF]

19 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I think they actually discussed this with Alliser Thorne and Jon in "The Watchers on the Wall".

I liked that interaction between them.

[The Bard of Banefort]

The more I think about it, the more I think that GOT would not have been nearly as successful in 2021 as it was in 2011. Firstly, because we're going through a particularly moralistic cultural period right now where anything that is deemed "problematic" must be removed from sight (I can already think of half a dozen things in House of the Dragon that people are going to rage about online), but for more specific reasons as well. D&D were completely indignant that people were upset about RamSan, but that was two years before MeToo, when the hammer really came down on depictions of assault and abuse (which probably explains why there was both less sexual violence and less nudity in the final two seasons). All the brown people kneeling to Daenerys the White and crowdsurfing her would elicit a much stronger backlash now than it did a few years ago, as would her conquest of Essos in general (there were a few articles criticizing this over the years, but they were drowned out by all the yas kweening). You would have thought there'd have also been more criticism about GOT not having any female writers or directors, since that actually was a hot topic in the 2010s, but somehow GOT managed to slip under the radar. 

[Ghostlydragon]

7 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The more I think about it, the more I think that GOT would not have been nearly as successful in 2021 as it was in 2011. Firstly, because we're going through a particularly moralistic cultural period right now where anything that is deemed "problematic" must be removed from sight (I can already think of half a dozen things in House of the Dragon that people are going to rage about online), but for more specific reasons as well. D&D were completely indignant that people were upset about RamSan, but that was two years before MeToo, when the hammer really came down on depictions of assault and abuse (which probably explains why there was both less sexual violence and less nudity in the final two seasons). All the brown people kneeling to Daenerys the White and crowdsurfing her would elicit a much stronger backlash now than it did a few years ago, as would her conquest of Essos in general (there were a few articles criticizing this over the years, but they were drowned out by all the yas kweening). You would have thought there'd have also been more criticism about GOT not having any female writers or directors, since that actually was a hot topic in the 2010s, but somehow GOT managed to slip under the radar. 

Agreed 100%. For all their many faults, D&D never pandered to the sjw crowd that so many other people have. Like you said, it would never stand now.

Full frontal naked women and excessive sex scenes focusing mostly on the women, rape being used to make women stronger, that crowd surfing bit, getting rid of the older characters like Barristan, Stannis and Roose to focus on the younger ones like Tyrion, Jon and Ramsay. And of course deciding Danaerys being a woman is a reason she's unfit to rule Westeros.

There's so much that would never stand and it's a miracle they could get away with it back then.

[SeanF]

28 minutes ago, Ghostlydragon said:

Agreed 100%. For all their many faults, D&D never pandered to the sjw crowd that so many other people have. Like you said, it would never stand now.

Full frontal naked women and excessive sex scenes focusing mostly on the women, rape being used to make women stronger, that crowd surfing bit, getting rid of the older characters like Barristan, Stannis and Roose to focus on the younger ones like Tyrion, Jon and Ramsay. And of course deciding Danaerys being a woman is a reason she's unfit to rule Westeros.

There's so much that would never stand and it's a miracle they could get away with it back then.

I think that if you're setting a series in a quasi-medieval world at war, the protagonists should have the political and ethical outlooks that you would expect from the leaders in such a world. In this world, pretty much everyone ought to view war as the Ultimate Argument of Kings, support capital punishment, consider torture to be effective.  laugh at the idea of same-sex marriage, and believe that the world should be ruled on the basis of one's bloodline.

What one needs to avoid is (a) anachronisms, such as someone suggesting that women should get the vote; or (b) endorsing the most bigoted of in-universe prejudices.

No writer can achieve that balance perfectly, and one shouldn't jump down the throats of such writers.  I do feel that as AGOT deteriorated, so the show runners chopped and changed between in-universe values and modern values in order to hit the plot points that they wanted. The execution of the Tarlys is a good example;  it should have gone unremarked in this type of world, given that it has been repeatedly established that traitors face execution, yet Tyrion and Varys, who have themselves waded up to their necks in blood, clutch their pearls over it, because that's a plot point that the show runners wished to hit. 

 

[HoodedCrow]

Randall Tarly was not a good guy. Tyrion has been very grey and may go different ways. Varys was very iffy. Still Daenerys wasn’t gloating or slavering over executions and battle destruction, so suddenly going mad queen did not make sense. In a way these books could be the anatomy of villainy or heroism in war time. It’s grey!

There are examples in history of there not being a lot of joy in having an excessively brutal king or heir. Fear, yes, but that could lead to friendly fire. IDK if Daenerys is going to be that kind by the end. It would need a much better build up than what was shown in the abomination. Whatever happens, we will not feel tidy!

[Angel Eyes]

3 hours ago, Ghostlydragon said:

Agreed 100%. For all their many faults, D&D never pandered to the sjw crowd that so many other people have. Like you said, it would never stand now.

Full frontal naked women and excessive sex scenes focusing mostly on the women, rape being used to make women stronger, that crowd surfing bit, getting rid of the older characters like Barristan, Stannis and Roose to focus on the younger ones like Tyrion, Jon and Ramsay. And of course deciding Daenerys being a woman is a reason she's unfit to rule Westeros.

There's so much that would never stand and it's a miracle they could get away with it back then.

Stannis would have gotten rid of anyways; D&D never liked him. They just decided to have him do something that would make most casual viewers turn on him (burning Shireen).

[Angel Eyes]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

I think that if you're setting a series in a quasi-medieval world at war, the protagonists should have the political and ethical outlooks that you would expect from the leaders in such a world. In this world, pretty much everyone ought to view war as the Ultimate Argument of Kings, support capital punishment, consider torture to be effective.  laugh at the idea of same-sex marriage, and believe that the world should be ruled on the basis of one's bloodline.

What one needs to avoid is (a) anachronisms, such as someone suggesting that women should get the vote; or (b) endorsing the most bigoted of in-universe prejudices.

No writer can achieve that balance perfectly, and one shouldn't jump down the throats of such writers.  I do feel that as AGOT deteriorated, so the show runners chopped and changed between in-universe values and modern values in order to hit the plot points that they wanted. The execution of the Tarlys is a good example;  it should have gone unremarked in this type of world, given that it has been repeatedly established that traitors face execution, yet Tyrion and Varys, who have themselves waded up to their necks in blood, clutch their pearls over it, because that's a plot point that the show runners wished to hit. 

 

On Varys: he’s very inconsistent when it comes to what he values in a ruler. He’s blunt to Ned that Robert is a fool because he makes no effort as King and didn’t want the crown, yet he says to Jon he’d be a great ruler because he doesn’t want to rule. The worst part is that Varys, who was trying to poison Daenerys at the time, somehow forgot that Robert was so apathetic because the woman he cared for died. How did he expect Jon was going to be if the woman he loved died?