Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

[Daemon of the Blacks]

On 6/16/2021 at 4:59 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Of course (and this is common to both versions), Tywin doesn't seem to consider that Tyrion and Sansa would not be accepted in the North as:

1. A Lannister (Tyrion)
2. Sansa has been associated with the Lannisters for too long to not believed tainted thought process-wise (show)
3. Tyrion is a cripple, as the North doesn't like cripples with Torrhen and Eddard Karstark saying that Bran should commit suicide
4. Robb disinherited Sansa so the Lannisters wouldn't get Winterfell

I think there are a couple of things to consider in that. Primarily that Tywin doesn't understand the north and isn't very interested in learning to understand them. About complaints of Tyrion being a cripple he'd just say ''I stomached him and so shall you''

The crown also has no real need to honor Robb disinheriting her. He did so as King in the North which in the crown's view isn't an office that actually exist as a legitimate thing. So Robb wouldn't have the authority to do this. 

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, Daemon of the Blacks said:

I think there are a couple of things to consider in that. Primarily that Tywin doesn't understand the north and isn't very interested in learning to understand them. About complaints of Tyrion being a cripple he'd just say ''I stomached him and so shall you''

The crown also has no real need to honor Robb disinheriting her. He did so as King in the North which in the crown's view isn't an office that actually exist as a legitimate thing. So Robb wouldn't have the authority to do this. 

Well in the show, they weren't really accepting of Sansa either in Season 6, when she and Jon were going around asking for help retaking Winterfell from the Boltons, partially because of her association with the Lannisters. Imagine how they'd react if Sansa had Tyrion's child and the child was a dwarf. That child would be double-dead because Tywin wouldn't like that they're a dwarf and again, the cripple notion.

[$erPounce]

I'm just looking for an excuse to post this quote, which captures well D&D's view of what an adaptation is:

David Benioff: "Season five is still very much within the books for the most part. The very first scene of the season and the very last scene of the season are book scenes. It's more season six that's going to be diverging a bit." (real quote)

So: according to D&D. If the first and last scenes are (loosely) based on the books, it's an adaptation, regardless of what is done with the time in between. Even if you only film the first and last page of a book and ignore the rest, D&D will consider it an adaptation of the book.
 

Note that D&D removed the valonqar in the first scene of Season 5 and in the last scene they changed the motive for why Jon was killed (not oathbreaking, as in the books, but wildling hatred). Even in the first and last scene of the season, they changed things for inexplicable reasons.

[Angel Eyes]

49 minutes ago, $erPounce said:

 

Note that D&D removed the valonqar in the first scene of Season 5 and in the last scene they changed the motive for why Jon was killed (not oathbreaking, as in the books, but wildling hatred). Even in the first and last scene of the season, they changed things for inexplicable reasons.

In the case of the valonqar, I think they intended Jaime to die with Cersei instead of killing her, which is emphasized when Bronn asks Jaime where he wants to die: "in the arms of the woman [he] loves".

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, $erPounce said:

I'm just looking for an excuse to post this quote, which captures well D&D's view of what an adaptation is:

David Benioff: "Season five is still very much within the books for the most part. The very first scene of the season and the very last scene of the season are book scenes. It's more season six that's going to be diverging a bit." (real quote)

So: according to D&D. If the first and last scenes are (loosely) based on the books, it's an adaptation, regardless of what is done with the time in between. Even if you only film the first and last page of a book and ignore the rest, D&D will consider it an adaptation of the book.
 

Note that D&D removed the valonqar in the first scene of Season 5 and in the last scene they changed the motive for why Jon was killed (not oathbreaking, as in the books, but wildling hatred). Even in the first and last scene of the season, they changed things for inexplicable reasons.

Another of those comments that makes you wonder if they ever read the books, as opposed to reading summaries on the internet.

The Pink Letter is absolutely crucial to Jon's final chapter, prompting him to declare open war on the Boltons, (he's been waging covert war throughout ADWD), and prompting the conspirators to strike him down.  This bad change all stems from their decision to turn Stannis into a villain, rather than a leader who is ruthless, but fair for his time, and a man that Jon respects.  

So, when we get the Pink Letter, in Season 6, it's quite underwhelming.  It's a nod to something in the books that goes nowhere.

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Another of those comments that makes you wonder if they ever read the books, as opposed to reading summaries on the internet.

The Pink Letter is absolutely crucial to Jon's final chapter, prompting him to declare open war on the Boltons, (he's been waging covert war throughout ADWD), and prompting the conspirators to strike him down.  This bad change all stems from their decision to turn Stannis into a villain, rather than a leader who is ruthless, but fair for his time, and a man that Jon respects.  

So, when we get the Pink Letter, in Season 6, it's quite underwhelming.  It's a nod to something in the books that goes nowhere.

Well, it doesn't seem to be going anywhere except to show that Jon's brotherly love for "Arya" helps no one.

[Lady_Qohor]

17 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well in the show, they weren't really accepting of Sansa either in Season 6, when she and Jon were going around asking for help retaking Winterfell from the Boltons, partially because of her association with the Lannisters. Imagine how they'd react if Sansa had Tyrion's child and the child was a dwarf. That child would be double-dead because Tywin wouldn't like that they're a dwarf and again, the cripple notion.

I think book Tywin was probably counting on the Lannisters vast resources to subdue the North. 

Think about it, if Tywin cut off all trade and just left the Northerners to starve for a few years in Winter, (with the Bolton as their overlords), some Northerners may not care too much who Tyrion and Sansa are as long as they bring plenty of food with them. For any hold outs the Lannisters would have a stronger better equipped army. 

Of course none of this would be possible in the show where the Lannisters are skint. 

[Nevets]

On ‎6‎/‎20‎/‎2021 at 12:51 PM, $erPounce said:

I'm just looking for an excuse to post this quote, which captures well D&D's view of what an adaptation is:

David Benioff: "Season five is still very much within the books for the most part. The very first scene of the season and the very last scene of the season are book scenes. It's more season six that's going to be diverging a bit." (real quote)

So: according to D&D. If the first and last scenes are (loosely) based on the books, it's an adaptation, regardless of what is done with the time in between. Even if you only film the first and last page of a book and ignore the rest, D&D will consider it an adaptation of the book.
 

Note that D&D removed the valonqar in the first scene of Season 5 and in the last scene they changed the motive for why Jon was killed (not oathbreaking, as in the books, but wildling hatred). Even in the first and last scene of the season, they changed things for inexplicable reasons.

To be fair, there is plenty of season 5 that is recognizable from the books:  Arya in Braavos, Ramsay marrying a Stark, Brienne's search, Jon and Stannis and the wildlings at the Wall, Cersei vs. Margaery.  The problem isn't that they didn't adapt the books, it's that they made far too many changes, and those changes almost always made things worse, not better.  I gave up at the halfway point simply because I couldn't understand why the characters were doing what they were doing.  It made no sense.

[Angel Eyes]

18 hours ago, Nevets said:

To be fair, there is plenty of season 5 that is recognizable from the books:  Arya in Braavos, Ramsay marrying a Stark, Brienne's search, Jon and Stannis and the wildlings at the Wall, Cersei vs. Margaery.  The problem isn't that they didn't adapt the books, it's that they made far too many changes, and those changes almost always made things worse, not better.  I gave up at the halfway point simply because I couldn't understand why the characters were doing what they were doing.  It made no sense.

I should have seen it coming, you know? I remember watching the Eragon film and Percy Jackson duology when I was younger, and the big criticism about either series was that the films barely resembled the source material.

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

I should have seen it coming, you know? I remember watching the Eragon film and Percy Jackson duology when I was younger, and the big criticism about either series was that the films barely resembled the source material.

I'll also add in the latter case that Rick Riordan was rather blunt in his opinion of the Percy Jackson films.

https://rickriordan.com/2018/11/memories-from-my-tv-movie-experience/

[Ghostlydragon]

13 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I'll also add in the latter case that Rick Riordan was rather blunt in his opinion of the Percy Jackson films.

https://rickriordan.com/2018/11/memories-from-my-tv-movie-experience/

Poor guy. Can you imagine if the Harry potter films ended up like this.

And what was the other film be referenced? Cirque du freak from the saga of Darren shan books?

[Angel Eyes]

32 minutes ago, Ghostlydragon said:

Poor guy. Can you imagine if the Harry potter films ended up like this.

And what was the other film be referenced? Cirque du freak from the saga of Darren shan books?

Rowling was smart about things; when the Harry Potter films were being made, she retained the rights to everything and whatever changes that were made were filtered through her.

[Angel Eyes]

On 6/20/2021 at 2:51 PM, $erPounce said:

I'm just looking for an excuse to post this quote, which captures well D&D's view of what an adaptation is:

David Benioff: "Season five is still very much within the books for the most part. The very first scene of the season and the very last scene of the season are book scenes. It's more season six that's going to be diverging a bit." (real quote)

So: according to D&D. If the first and last scenes are (loosely) based on the books, it's an adaptation, regardless of what is done with the time in between. Even if you only film the first and last page of a book and ignore the rest, D&D will consider it an adaptation of the book.
 

Note that D&D removed the valonqar in the first scene of Season 5 and in the last scene they changed the motive for why Jon was killed (not oathbreaking, as in the books, but wildling hatred). Even in the first and last scene of the season, they changed things for inexplicable reasons.

In Sansa’s case, I’m generally apprehensive about her betrothal to Harry Hardyng because of what happened in the show (Ramsay was composited with Harry).

[sifth]

Season 5 really was when the show became a mess. You can tell they really didn't want to adapted AFFC or ADWD and just rushed through all the material as quickly as possible. Killing Ser Barristan was easily the dumbest thing they did that season for me. He's such an important character in the books and they just choose to randomly give his story to Tyrion, despite it not making any sense, considering Tyrion only knew all the characters in Dany's court for at most a few days, before she gets carried away by her dragon. I remember watching a video online, which stated that Cercie killing Ser Barristan in front of Dany, would have been better, than Missandei's death, considering Barristan is like a second father to Dany and probably the kindest and most honorable person in her life.

[BlackLightning]

3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

In Sansa’s case, I’m generally apprehensive about her betrothal to Harry Hardyng because of what happened in the show (Ramsay was composited with Harry).

Yeah me too. But the reason why I am concerned about Sansa has less to do the with the fact that Ramsay was something of a stand-in for Harry the Heir and more to do with the fact that Littlefinger is making Sansa a bigamist (and thus, an adulterer). That, along with her existing personal problems, the coming of the Others, the inevitably wrathful return of Tyrion and the drama that has been all but confirmed to occur between her and Arya, puts a HUGE target on Sansa's back.

So while I think Harry Hardyng will be abusive but not in the way Ramsay was.

I feel like Harry Hardyng will be more like a young Robert Baratheon. It's an interesting narrative as it puts Sansa in Cersei's shoes. I always love when characters become dark mirrors and foils to other characters.

On 6/3/2021 at 7:16 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

In retrospect, I’m surprised that Jon murdering his girlfriend didn’t get more backlash on its own. I guess everyone was so distracted by the King’s Landing barbecue that they didn’t really focus on it, but it certainly seems like the sort of thing that would piss a lot of people off. 

That's because it would piss a lot of people off. Particularly in the post #MeToo era

But because it was one of many egregious and ridiculous things to transpire in the last season alone, it gets glossed over. Not because it's not important nor because it didn't piss people off...it's just because there was so much to be pissed off at.

On 6/1/2021 at 8:09 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

You would have thought there'd have also been more criticism about GOT not having any female writers or directors, since that actually was a hot topic in the 2010s, but somehow GOT managed to slip under the radar. 

There was criticism. It just came from people (Ava DuVarney) that no one really cared/knew about. Also never underestimate the power of hype.

[Angel Eyes]

19 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Yeah me too. But the reason why I am concerned about Sansa has less to do the with the fact that Ramsay was something of a stand-in for Harry the Heir and more to do with the fact that Littlefinger is making Sansa a bigamist (and thus, an adulterer). That, along with her existing personal problems, the coming of the Others, the inevitably wrathful return of Tyrion and the drama that has been all but confirmed to occur between her and Arya, puts a HUGE target on Sansa's back.

So while I think Harry Hardyng will be abusive but not in the way Ramsay was.

I feel like Harry Hardyng will be more like a young Robert Baratheon. It's an interesting narrative as it puts Sansa in Cersei's shoes. I always love when characters become dark mirrors and foils to other characters.

 

Littlefinger does not care for the rules, simply put. Though I'm wondering why he hasn't sent anybody to kill Tyrion just so he can annul the marriage, even if it was unconsummated.

As far as Harry being like a young Robert Baratheon, I've compared the match to Lyanna's with Robert: a Stark lady who is betrothed to a young lord who has already sired bastards in the Vale. I've compared Sansa to Cersei in the past (see the Mirrors and Foils thread in the book sub-forum; post is here.

[BlackLightning]

19 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Littlefinger does not care for the rules, simply put. Though I'm wondering why he hasn't sent anybody to kill Tyrion just so he can annul the marriage, even if it was unconsummated.

As far as Harry being like a young Robert Baratheon, I've compared the match to Lyanna's with Robert: a Stark lady who is betrothed to a young lord who has already sired bastards in the Vale. I've compared Sansa to Cersei in the past (see the Mirrors and Foils thread in the book sub-forum; post is here.

Thanks for the link!

Littlefinger not caring about the rules is besides the point. The point I was making is that Sansa is in trouble.

[Angel Eyes]

54 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Thanks for the link!

Littlefinger not caring about the rules is besides the point. The point I was making is that Sansa is in trouble.

I was making a general statement about Littlefinger not caring. But yes, you are right. Sansa’s going to be in a heap of trouble (but when hasn’t she been, with the Lannisters, Tyrion in particular, Arya, the fandom since the books were published).

[sifth]

12 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I was making a general statement about Littlefinger not caring. But yes, you are right. Sansa’s going to be in a heap of trouble (but when hasn’t she been, with the Lannisters, Tyrion in particular, Arya, the fandom since the books were published).

See, I'm sort of hoping for the opposite. I want to see Sansa manipulate Harry. We were able to see her do it with Joffrey from time to time, by playing to his ego and with Littlefinger's help, I want her do it with Harry as well. Sure it wont be easy, since nothing in this series ever is, but I want her to come out of this on top for a change. Sansa is one of my favorite characters and mostly it's because she's an underdog. These are always the characters I enjoy supporting the most.

[SeanF]

4 hours ago, sifth said:

See, I'm sort of hoping for the opposite. I want to see Sansa manipulate Harry. We were able to see her do it with Joffrey from time to time, by playing to his ego and with Littlefinger's help, I want her do it with Harry as well. Sure it wont be easy, since nothing in this series ever is, but I want her to come out of this on top for a change. Sansa is one of my favorite characters and mostly it's because she's an underdog. These are always the characters I enjoy supporting the most.

I think Sansa's at a turning point, as at the start of TWOW.  She might succeed in turning the tales on Littlefinger.  Or she might move further down the parth of being his partner in crime, conniving at the death of Sweetrobin, and lying on his behalf.