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Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!


The Fattest Leech

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19 hours ago, EggBlue said:

D&D had most likely seen the Bells Madness hints in JonCon chapters and thought "how cool would it be if we have that!" then took a look at AA/NN story and thought "eureka! ... Dany's mother of dragons , so what if Jon is AA? .. a huge chunk of fandom theorize that ... they'll like it!" .. if only they knew how they were fucking it up..  .  my point is , we can't possibly rely on whatever storyline the show had and think it's some distorted version of the books which we should try and work in the future books , save for the famous three plot points perhaps. anything in the show such as Cersei's wildfire plot , Bells , AA , etc. may or may not find its way to books but only as much as other fan theories . 

PS. SeanF , I like your scenario , you should have helped D&D :)

That's one scenario that could happen; mine was that Connington would be driven to more desperate actions due to his impending condition.

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I finally watched Mauler’s videos on GOT and was surprised at how good they were. He tends to comes up alongside some pretty unpleasant channels, so I always avoided his, but his video on The Bells was really solid. It’s amazing just how much stuff there still is to pick apart even after criticizing this show for years. 

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On 5/22/2022 at 2:29 PM, SeanF said:

One could sketch out a plausible scenario.

1.  Dany fights a savage battle for Kings Landing against Aegon and Arianne.  As her forces close in on the capital, Jon Connington and the Sands murder Tommen, Margaery and Myrcella, who have been kept as hostages in the Red Keep.

Much of the city burns in the fighting. Aegon is killed, Arianne, defiant to the last refuses to bend the knee, and is executed by Dany.

2.  Dany, having crushed her enemies, demands that the lords of the Seven Kingdoms give fealty.  Most agree, but Dorne and the North refuse.  Dany readies for war against them.

3.  The Wall is breached.  Dany is persuaded (by Jon/Sansa?) to agree a truce in order to fight the Others.  Victory is achieved, at enormous cost.  She and Jon become lovers, and for a time, there is a rapprochement between her and Starks.  The Northmen are not xenophobic morons, as in the show, and are genuinely grateful for Dany’s military aid, but…..

4.  The North’s desire for independence can’t be squared with Dany’s insistence that  all Seven Kingdoms remain united, and the last round of warfare commences.

Nobody has to be vilified in that scenario.

One of the things that personally bothered me about Daenerys' plot in the last couple seasons was that she never really tried to show why she should be ruler of Westeros over options like Cersei, playing on the public's dislike of Cersei (except in Braavos) due to her incestuous affairs, ordering the mass murder of popular figures like Queen Margaery and the High Sparrow. She could promote safety and fair-handedness in the Riverlands. She could have bonded with Sansa over being turfed out of your home (multiple times for Daenerys) and being raped by her husband, or with Arya over being a woman with martial power (Daenerys with her dragons, Arya with her skills as a killer and someone with the abilities of a Faceless Man). But nooo, she never really tried to win people over outside of "Bend the Knee" and "I'm the Queen, and you gotta deal with it" (reference to The Legend of Korra). On the other hand, going the other way in "The Last of the Starks", Sansa could have bargained with Daenerys to end things quickly without amassing significant civilian casualties: Send Arya in to take out Cersei, North gets autonomy similar to that of Dorne.

How hard could it be?

Again, did she do everything she could have to win?

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11 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

One of the things that personally bothered me about Daenerys' plot in the last couple seasons was that she never really tried to show why she should be ruler of Westeros over options like Cersei, playing on the public's dislike of Cersei (except in Braavos) due to her incestuous affairs, ordering the mass murder of popular figures like Queen Margaery and the High Sparrow. She could promote safety and fair-handedness in the Riverlands. She could have bonded with Sansa over being turfed out of your home (multiple times for Daenerys) and being raped by her husband, or with Arya over being a woman with martial power (Daenerys with her dragons, Arya with her skills as a killer and someone with the abilities of a Faceless Man). But nooo, she never really tried to win people over outside of "Bend the Knee" and "I'm the Queen, and you gotta deal with it" (reference to The Legend of Korra). On the other hand, going the other way in "The Last of the Starks", Sansa could have bargained with Daenerys to end things quickly without amassing significant civilian casualties: Send Arya in to take out Cersei, North gets autonomy similar to that of Dorne.

How hard could it be?

Again, did she do everything she could have to win?

Well, any form of diplomacy went out the window.  It makes no sense to me that neither she nor Jon had a negotiating position at Dragonstone.  And, the failure to make anything of Cersei's wildfire plot is just inexplicable.  Sansa can be explained by the latter's hatred for her.  Her one effort to bond resulted in failure.  But, why did Sansa so hate her, with the Dead closing in?  That only makes sense if Sansa somehow knew that the Dead would be monster of the week.

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On 5/22/2022 at 2:29 PM, SeanF said:

4.  The North’s desire for independence can’t be squared with Dany’s insistence that  all Seven Kingdoms remain united, and the last round of warfare commences.

That is better! The independence thing from the show I would leave out, as the North wouldn't be so stupid as to shut themselves off from the rest of a kingdom (including the breadbasket in the Reach) ruled by a relative.

I would skip the lovers part, it amounts to nothing, and focus on Jon and Dany as family, that they'd find out the truth about Rhaegar and Lyanna, and learn a lesson from it, with peaceful resolution for both families.

If they must kill off Dany, then they could have had her go out trying to do something good at the battle against the Others, instead of going bonkers over a man. That would show respect to both Dany and the audience.

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1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

If they must kill off Dany, then they could have had her go out trying to do something good at the battle against the Others, instead of going bonkers over a man. That would show respect to both Dany and the audience.

That's how I thought her story would end, with her sacrificing herself in Jon's place to save the seven kingdoms.

If GRRM goes the same route with her in the books he's gonna face some backlash.

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On 5/22/2022 at 1:29 PM, SeanF said:

One could sketch out a plausible scenario.

1.  Dany fights a savage battle for Kings Landing against Aegon and Arianne.  As her forces close in on the capital, Jon Connington and the Sands murder Tommen, Margaery and Myrcella, who have been kept as hostages in the Red Keep.

Much of the city burns in the fighting. Aegon is killed, Arianne, defiant to the last refuses to bend the knee, and is executed by Dany.

2.  Dany, having crushed her enemies, demands that the lords of the Seven Kingdoms give fealty.  Most agree, but Dorne and the North refuse.  Dany readies for war against them.

3.  The Wall is breached.  Dany is persuaded (by Jon/Sansa?) to agree a truce in order to fight the Others.  Victory is achieved, at enormous cost.  She and Jon become lovers, and for a time, there is a rapprochement between her and Starks.  The Northmen are not xenophobic morons, as in the show, and are genuinely grateful for Dany’s military aid, but…..

4.  The North’s desire for independence can’t be squared with Dany’s insistence that  all Seven Kingdoms remain united, and the last round of warfare commences.

Nobody has to be vilified in that scenario.

This is unlikely to happen in the books.

If only for the reason that GRRM seems to be moving towards having the invasions of Daenerys Targaryen and the Others happen at the same time. A song of ice and fire, if you will. The Others from the North, Daenerys from Dorne.

I also doubt that the Sand Snakes and/or Conningtong (especially Connington) would wait THAT long before conclusively dealing with Tommen, Margaery and/or Myrcella. And I'm sorry but what would murdering Tommen, Margaery and Myrcella do to Dany. Those wouldn't be her hostages.

On 5/21/2022 at 10:00 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Does anyone else seriously doubt that Cersei will burn KL in the books? That seems to me to have been a fanservice thing, ala Cleganebowl. In the books, Cersei has already been removed from power. I actually find it more likely that she'll try to blow up Casterly Rock in some absurdly paranoid move to prevent Dany or Aegon or whoever from taking it. 

I do think Cersei will be able to kill or get rid of the Tyrells inside King's Landing someway. But I do not think she'll be able to blow up any part of King's Landing. It's not about her lack of desire or effort; it's more about Varys and how he would never let that happen.

I do think that King's landing will burn but it'll be Connington, Euron or Dany....for different reasons

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On 5/24/2022 at 10:02 PM, SeanF said:

Well, any form of diplomacy went out the window.  It makes no sense to me that neither she nor Jon had a negotiating position at Dragonstone. 

Aside from Jon, did she really try?

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I’ll say this for Emilia: even though I’m not a big fan of her acting, when I look back at scenes from S7 and S8, she’s clearly trying hard to sell the Jon-Dany romance. As opposed to Kit, who just looks. . . tired. Nothing about his performance suggests he has any affection for “his queen.” No wonder the “political Jon” headcanon caught on.

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53 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I’ll say this for Emilia: even though I’m not a big fan of her acting, when I look back at scenes from S7 and S8, she’s clearly trying hard to sell the Jon-Dany romance. As opposed to Kit, who just looks. . . tired. Nothing about his performance suggests he has any affection for “his queen.” No wonder the “political Jon” headcanon caught on.

Jon was given almost nothing worthwhile to say, and had to choose between looking miserable, confused, or constipated.

But, yes, the script says repeatedly that he loved her, and that after killing her, he had nothing to live for, and I was thinking “when did you ever indicate that you loved her, either romantically, or as family?”

What we were shown was a man who took and took from her, before abandoning her.

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On 6/2/2022 at 8:44 AM, SeanF said:

Jon was given almost nothing worthwhile to say, and had to choose between looking miserable, confused, or constipated.

But, yes, the script says repeatedly that he loved her, and that after killing her, he had nothing to live for, and I was thinking “when did you ever indicate that you loved her, either romantically, or as family?”

What we were shown was a man who took and took from her, before abandoning her.

In other words, the usual for show Jon. :lol:

Yeah, he was pretty awful. It's funny they wanted us to turn on Dany (the way they did), but it just made me like her all the more. Whatever they were trying to say (and it's doubtful they even knew), they sure were lousy at saying it.

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1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

In other words, the usual for show Jon. :lol:

Yeah, he was pretty awful. It's funny they wanted us to turn on Dany (the way they did), but it just made me like her all the more. Whatever they were trying to say (and it's doubtful they even knew), they sure were lousy at saying it.

So much misfired.  We’re meant to think of Sansa as a brilliant leader, rather than a discount Cersei;  Tyrion is meant to be a heroic pacifist, rather than the complete moron he actually is etc.

As for Dany, well you aren’t paranoid when you’re being constantly gaslit and undermined by your ostensible supporters.

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13 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

In other words, the usual for show Jon. :lol:

Yeah, he was pretty awful. It's funny they wanted us to turn on Dany (the way they did), but it just made me like her all the more. Whatever they were trying to say (and it's doubtful they even knew), they sure were lousy at saying it.

I never felt more sympathetic towards her than when they butchered her character arc. 

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14 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

In other words, the usual for show Jon. :lol:

Yeah, he was pretty awful. It's funny they wanted us to turn on Dany (the way they did), but it just made me like her all the more. Whatever they were trying to say (and it's doubtful they even knew), they sure were lousy at saying it.

Honestly, it’s a surprise that Season 8 Jon could dress and feed himself.

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55 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Does anyone else think the “chaos is a ladder” monologue was incredibly stupid? I have no idea how it became such a hit among fans. 

Yes, the point about being a shrewd player of The Game of Thrones is that you don’t brag about being evil.

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This was the video I was talking about (it's a long one, so maybe save it for a day when you're bored or need something to listen to to pass the time). I expected this guy to be one of those anti-women reactionary types, but this is a surprisingly solid analysis. Even his Star Wars analyses are good (if a little too nitpicky)--he thinks Rey's a Mary Sue, but he also did a ten-minute explanation on why her not wanting to hold Finn's hand at the beginning of TFA was in-character and not feminist propaganda LOL.

 

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16 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

This was the video I was talking about (it's a long one, so maybe save it for a day when you're bored or need something to listen to to pass the time). I expected this guy to be one of those anti-women reactionary types, but this is a surprisingly solid analysis. Even his Star Wars analyses are good (if a little too nitpicky)--he thinks Rey's a Mary Sue, but he also did a ten-minute explanation on why her not wanting to hold Finn's hand at the beginning of TFA was in-character and not feminist propaganda LOL.

 

I'm a fan of Mauler. His reviews of GoT and The Last Jedi were very cathartic.

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Something I'm confused about from Season 2: In the episode "What is Dead may Never Die", why do the Lannisters believe Arya when she says Lommy is Gendry? They know what Gendry looks like (black hair, blue eyes), and the blond Lommy doesn't fit the physical profile. And don't tell me it was because of standards; Polliver had just stabbed Lommy in the throat.

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