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Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!


The Fattest Leech

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On 6/9/2022 at 5:05 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Something I'm confused about from Season 2: In the episode "What is Dead may Never Die", why do the Lannisters believe Arya when she says Lommy is Gendry? They know what Gendry looks like (black hair, blue eyes), and the blond Lommy doesn't fit the physical profile. And don't tell me it was because of standards; Polliver had just stabbed Lommy in the throat.

Yeah, I always said the dumb actually started to slip in as early as season 2, even though season 5 is generally  regarded as the point when the writing went downhill.

I could feel something was off as soon as Robb's wife was introduced, and I hadn't read the books yet.

I also remember the part where Qhorin Half-hand leaves Jon Snow alone with Ygritte under the assumption he can trust this green boy with a prisoner and I thought "well that's pretty stupid on his part".

Then I read the book, where it's made clear that Qhorin left Jon alone with Ygritte specifically because e wanted to see if Jon would let her go and I was like, "okay, now it makes sense".

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35 minutes ago, Darryk said:

Yeah, I always said the dumb actually started to slip in as early as season 2, even though season 5 is generally  regarded as the point when the writing went downhill.

I could feel something was off as soon as Robb's wife was introduced, and I hadn't read the books yet.

I also remember the part where Qhorin Half-hand leaves Jon Snow alone with Ygritte under the assumption he can trust this green boy with a prisoner and I thought "well that's pretty stupid on his part".

Then I read the book, where it's made clear that Qhorin left Jon alone with Ygritte specifically because e wanted to see if Jon would let her go and I was like, "okay, now it makes sense".

Actually, I view that as a weak point of ACOK.  No way would an experienced soldier leave a 15 year old boy, on his first mission,  to execute a girl.  

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19 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Actually, I view that as a weak point of ACOK.  No way would an experienced soldier leave a 15 year old boy, on his first mission,  to execute a girl.  

He does it cause he expects Jon to let her go, which will make it easier for Jon to infiltrate them later.

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In season 1, they changed key events that rendered subsequent events forever nonsensical or erased completely, and changed key relationships that were forever diminished after that.

Then when they changed even more in season 2, it was like GRRM always said, the butterfly effect. There were butterflies all over the place in season 1 that kept multiplying exponentially every season.

If someone does something they never would do, or doesn't do something they would do (and that something is what sets their story in motion), they aren't the same person, and it's not the same story.

(When they said themes are for eighth grade book reports, that says it all. That's thumbing their noses at meaningful storytelling. There is a reason things play out as they do in the books, and in other works.)

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I thought season 1 was the best thing I'd seen on TV but then I hadn't read the books so I didn't have anything to compare it to.

But from season 2 I could tell they were getting lazy even without having read the books.

What were some of the season 1 changes that people were unhappy with?

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1 hour ago, Darryk said:

I thought season 1 was the best thing I'd seen on TV but then I hadn't read the books so I didn't have anything to compare it to.

But from season 2 I could tell they were getting lazy even without having read the books.

What were some of the season 1 changes that people were unhappy with?

I didn't like Maester Aemon's explanation of his history by omitting Daeron. It'll make any adaptation of Dunk and Egg impossible.

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On 6/17/2022 at 11:26 AM, Darryk said:

What were some of the season 1 changes that people were unhappy with?

I remember people being really mad at their adaptation of the Dany's story. I had some minor issues about some things but I overlooked it at the time. Looking back, they made some really huge mistakes that were red flags. And it's sad that it's always has something to do with Dany or Bran or both.

  1. In the first book, Dany has pretty colorful, slightly horrifying dreams. Some of the dreams (or nightmares) are precognitive (meaning that Dany can see the future in her dreams), some of them are messages from the gods (or the one true God) and some of them are kinda reality-bending multiverse "What If's." None of these dreams whatsoever appear at all. And all of them (particularly the second one and the last one) are all important to the plot.
  2. The first Dany chapter sees Dany and Drogo meet at the very first time at a banquet. Drogo is apparently so rich (and culturally unique among the Dothraki) that he owns a mansion in Pentos that he occasionally lives in. A lot of political conversation between Illyrio and Viserys is cut out as are Dany's deep distrust for Illyrio. Despite distrusting Illyrio (for good reason as we later find out in A Dance with Dragons), Dany is able to hide her true feelings well. Dany is actually a very intelligent woman with a gift for political games, strategy and warfare. But in the show, Dany's most insightful, intelligent moments are mostly given to Jorah Mormont, they are completely cut out or it comes out of nowhere. In the books, you see it in her very first chapter. 
  3. Then the second Dany chapter--the one with the wedding. Wow, people really hated this. First of all, the wedding ceremony itself: you don't get to see the majesty of Drogo and the might of his khalasar nor do you understand little tidbits of Dothraki culture. As the books would have it, Drogo is a king. The TV show inexplicably decides to be slightly racist by making Drogo and the Dothraki (the only non-white characters and non-European locale in the entire first season) look like evil barbarians.
  4. And then there's the infamous honeymoon bedding. In the books, Drogo seduces Dany and the two engage in foreplay before Dany moans her consent. It's honestly the best sex scene that GRRM has written (a low bar but the best is the best). In the show, Drogo bends Dany over and has at it while Dany sobs and clutches at her torn clothing. Unnecessary.
  5. The end with the dragons and Mirri Maaz Duur. This is where the dreams are important because it's pretty much what informs Dany to execute Mirri Maaz Duur by fire and place the eggs in said fire. Also, the visions in the flames that Dany sees are important...because we see Melisandre and a bunch of other characters do it in the coming seasons. The magical elements of the show (which are important what with all the magical creatures and magical powers) is never really explained in the show and it starts here. Plus, we never see Mirri Maaz Duur do the shadow magic like we are supposed to.

 

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8 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

A lot of season 1 has left my mind. The removal of Jeyne Poole is the big one though, because I knew that would cause issues down the line. I think my biggest issue with the first season, is the one I'm most forgiving of and that's the removal of the battles. I sort of understand that the show had no money for any major battles in season 1, but Tyrion just conveniently being knocked out by his own men and waking up after the fighting was over, was just silly and stupid, IMO

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21 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I remember people being really mad at their adaptation of the Dany's story. I had some minor issues about some things but I overlooked it at the time. Looking back, they made some really huge mistakes that were red flags. And it's sad that it's always has something to do with Dany or Bran or both.

  1. In the first book, Dany has pretty colorful, slightly horrifying dreams. Some of the dreams (or nightmares) are precognitive (meaning that Dany can see the future in her dreams), some of them are messages from the gods (or the one true God) and some of them are kinda reality-bending multiverse "What If's." None of these dreams whatsoever appear at all. And all of them (particularly the second one and the last one) are all important to the plot.
  2. The first Dany chapter sees Dany and Drogo meet at the very first time at a banquet. Drogo is apparently so rich (and culturally unique among the Dothraki) that he owns a mansion in Pentos that he occasionally lives in. A lot of political conversation between Illyrio and Viserys is cut out as are Dany's deep distrust for Illyrio. Despite distrusting Illyrio (for good reason as we later find out in A Dance with Dragons), Dany is able to hide her true feelings well. Dany is actually a very intelligent woman with a gift for political games, strategy and warfare. But in the show, Dany's most insightful, intelligent moments are mostly given to Jorah Mormont, they are completely cut out or it comes out of nowhere. In the books, you see it in her very first chapter. 
  3. Then the second Dany chapter--the one with the wedding. Wow, people really hated this. First of all, the wedding ceremony itself: you don't get to see the majesty of Drogo and the might of his khalasar nor do you understand little tidbits of Dothraki culture. As the books would have it, Drogo is a king. The TV show inexplicably decides to be slightly racist by making Drogo and the Dothraki (the only non-white characters and non-European locale in the entire first season) look like evil barbarians.
  4. And then there's the infamous honeymoon bedding. In the books, Drogo seduces Dany and the two engage in foreplay before Dany moans her consent. It's honestly the best sex scene that GRRM has written (a low bar but the best is the best). In the show, Drogo bends Dany over and has at it while Dany sobs and clutches at her torn clothing. Unnecessary.
  5. The end with the dragons and Mirri Maaz Duur. This is where the dreams are important because it's pretty much what informs Dany to execute Mirri Maaz Duur by fire and place the eggs in said fire. Also, the visions in the flames that Dany sees are important...because we see Melisandre and a bunch of other characters do it in the coming seasons. The magical elements of the show (which are important what with all the magical creatures and magical powers) is never really explained in the show and it starts here. Plus, we never see Mirri Maaz Duur do the shadow magic like we are supposed to.

 

Bar the wedding, I’m not too bothered by those changes.  The two D’s can’t do magic, and would screw it up if they tried.

But down the line, you’re correct that a lot of Dany’s best moments are given to others (Dany telling herself she has to be strong for her people in the Red Waste becomes Jorah telling her that) or else omitted (comforting Doreah as she’s dying) or changed to make her look less good (in the books, subduing Drogon and flying him out of Daznak’s Pit becomes her being rescued and fleeing her enemies).  

She’s portrayed as less intelligent and more belligerent than in the books (mouthing off at the Spice King, rather than trying diplomacy, threatening fire and blood, rather than keeping her own counsel).

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19 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

How'd you know that that would cause issues?

They could've cut out Jeyne Poole and have another random peasant girl stand in as fArya.

I mean, that's true, but I'd probably feel more for an established character being harmed by Ramsay, compared to an unknown character. That's just me though.

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Here's a review I hadn't read before:

As the show's producer, HBO would naturally get a look at the scripts of any season before it would go into production, which means its executives must have read through the final season and thought everything was fine and dandy. But given what audiences have seen over the last few weeks, it doesn't seem like they pored through it properly before signing off a cheque for $90 million to make season 8. They really should have. Game of Thrones' final season didn't just retain the problems that had emerged in the past couple of seasons, from pacing to idiocy, but it compounded them by adding even more issues to the mix. Season 8 reduced characters to caricatures didn't earn its character development and the shift in their arcs, baked in several plot holes, and did away with internal logic and consistency.

We've covered much of this previously in detail over the last month or so. Daenerys' (Emilia Clarke) transformation from a slave-freeing ruler who wanted to “break the wheel” to a spontaneous mass murderer who became a tyrant herself wasn't convincing at all. Her advisor Tyrion (Peter Dinklage), who was picked for his intelligence, only made uncharacteristic bad calls for the past two seasons. Game of Thrones entirely botched the endings for Cersei and Jaime and turned genre-subverting characters such as Brienne (Gwendoline Christie) and Sandor “The Hound” Clegane (Rory McCann) into clichés towards the end. And Euron Greyjoy (Pilou Asbæk) was essentially a plot device, which is the only explanation for the incredulous imbalance between the dragons and the Scorpions, the dragon-killing weapon...

https://gadgets360.com/entertainment/reviews/game-of-thrones-season-8-finale-review-hbo-2040288

The article  goes on to talk about the other problems, but brings up the interesting point that HBO approved this disaster without raising objections, or if so, doing anything substantial about them. Revisiting it now seems beyond tone deaf.

I found it on Rotten Tomatoes, where I looked because someone said the audience rating was 30%, and sure enough... A common refrain in the audience reviews is that the series is not re-watchable anymore. There's nothing to salvage from it.

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10 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Here's a review I hadn't read before:

As the show's producer, HBO would naturally get a look at the scripts of any season before it would go into production, which means its executives must have read through the final season and thought everything was fine and dandy. But given what audiences have seen over the last few weeks, it doesn't seem like they pored through it properly before signing off a cheque for $90 million to make season 8. They really should have. Game of Thrones' final season didn't just retain the problems that had emerged in the past couple of seasons, from pacing to idiocy, but it compounded them by adding even more issues to the mix. Season 8 reduced characters to caricatures didn't earn its character development and the shift in their arcs, baked in several plot holes, and did away with internal logic and consistency.

We've covered much of this previously in detail over the last month or so. Daenerys' (Emilia Clarke) transformation from a slave-freeing ruler who wanted to “break the wheel” to a spontaneous mass murderer who became a tyrant herself wasn't convincing at all. Her advisor Tyrion (Peter Dinklage), who was picked for his intelligence, only made uncharacteristic bad calls for the past two seasons. Game of Thrones entirely botched the endings for Cersei and Jaime and turned genre-subverting characters such as Brienne (Gwendoline Christie) and Sandor “The Hound” Clegane (Rory McCann) into clichés towards the end. And Euron Greyjoy (Pilou Asbæk) was essentially a plot device, which is the only explanation for the incredulous imbalance between the dragons and the Scorpions, the dragon-killing weapon...

https://gadgets360.com/entertainment/reviews/game-of-thrones-season-8-finale-review-hbo-2040288

The article  goes on to talk about the other problems, but brings up the interesting point that HBO approved this disaster without raising objections, or if so, doing anything substantial about them. Revisiting it now seems beyond tone deaf.

I found it on Rotten Tomatoes, where I looked because someone said the audience rating was 30%, and sure enough... A common refrain in the audience reviews is that the series is not re-watchable anymore. There's nothing to salvage from it.

I guess HBO thought that if it made them money, who cares about the quality.

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9 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

How'd you know that that would cause issues?

They could've cut out Jeyne Poole and have another random peasant girl stand in as fArya.

Actually, they really couldn't.  And Jeyne isn't a peasant girl; she's highborn, albeit low ranking.  Whoever plays FArya has to talk like a highborn, be able to read and write, and know enough about Winterfell and the Starks to answer any likely questions.  A random peasant girl can't do that. 

What's interesting is that GRRM put her in the episode he wrote (he had Sansa mention her to Cersei), and D&D took it out.  Might have saved us the whole Sansa/Ramsay mess from season 5.  Still, if they had really wanted, they could have introduced her in s 5 as someone who went with her father who was a Stark man and was a loose end after the purge.  Same story, different person.

My biggest problem with season 1 was The Hound not telling his own backstory.  Especially since it's pretty cinematic in the book.  Overall, though, there wasn't that much that fundamentally changed things in season 1.  The butterflies generally stayed butterflies.  It was season 2 where the butterflies really started turning into dragons.  Talisa and Harrenhal being the worst offenders.

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2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Here's a review I hadn't read before:

As the show's producer, HBO would naturally get a look at the scripts of any season before it would go into production, which means its executives must have read through the final season and thought everything was fine and dandy. But given what audiences have seen over the last few weeks, it doesn't seem like they pored through it properly before signing off a cheque for $90 million to make season 8. They really should have. Game of Thrones' final season didn't just retain the problems that had emerged in the past couple of seasons, from pacing to idiocy, but it compounded them by adding even more issues to the mix. Season 8 reduced characters to caricatures didn't earn its character development and the shift in their arcs, baked in several plot holes, and did away with internal logic and consistency.

We've covered much of this previously in detail over the last month or so. Daenerys' (Emilia Clarke) transformation from a slave-freeing ruler who wanted to “break the wheel” to a spontaneous mass murderer who became a tyrant herself wasn't convincing at all. Her advisor Tyrion (Peter Dinklage), who was picked for his intelligence, only made uncharacteristic bad calls for the past two seasons. Game of Thrones entirely botched the endings for Cersei and Jaime and turned genre-subverting characters such as Brienne (Gwendoline Christie) and Sandor “The Hound” Clegane (Rory McCann) into clichés towards the end. And Euron Greyjoy (Pilou Asbæk) was essentially a plot device, which is the only explanation for the incredulous imbalance between the dragons and the Scorpions, the dragon-killing weapon...

https://gadgets360.com/entertainment/reviews/game-of-thrones-season-8-finale-review-hbo-2040288

The article  goes on to talk about the other problems, but brings up the interesting point that HBO approved this disaster without raising objections, or if so, doing anything substantial about them. Revisiting it now seems beyond tone deaf.

I found it on Rotten Tomatoes, where I looked because someone said the audience rating was 30%, and sure enough... A common refrain in the audience reviews is that the series is not re-watchable anymore. There's nothing to salvage from it.

I’m glad you posted this, because it touches on something I see all the time and don’t understand: fans placing all blame on D&D but not HBO because they “offered to shoot more seasons.” At the end of the day, D&D worked for HBO, not the other way around. They signed the checks, they oversaw every stage of production, they had the final say on everything. If they really wanted to have the show run longer, or to bring in additional writers, they could have. Instead they put their faith in the showrunners even after it became clear that things started going south as soon as they ran out of books (I know a lot of casual fans liked S5-6, but at the very least, the backlash to Dorne and RamSan—which the show hadn’t experienced yet to that degree—should have made them pick their heads up). Compare that the Lucasfilm, where productions were stopped and reshot halfway through filming because things were going off the rails (apparently the original directors for Solo wanted to improvise most of the scenes, even though they weren’t working with comedic actors, which led to some pretty bad dialogue and was why they were swapped out for Ron Howard, who ended up reshooting most of the movie).

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4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I’m glad you posted this, because it touches on something I see all the time and don’t understand: fans placing all blame on D&D but not HBO because they “offered to shoot more seasons.” At the end of the day, D&D worked for HBO, not the other way around. They signed the checks, they oversaw every stage of production, they had the final say on everything. If they really wanted to have the show run longer, or to bring in additional writers, they could have. Instead they put their faith in the showrunners even after it became clear that things started going south as soon as they ran out of books (I know a lot of casual fans liked S5-6, but at the very least, the backlash to Dorne and RamSan—which the show hadn’t experienced yet to that degree—should have made them pick their heads up). Compare that the Lucasfilm, where productions were stopped and reshot halfway through filming because things were going off the rails (apparently the original directors for Solo wanted to improvise most of the scenes, even though they weren’t working with comedic actors, which led to some pretty bad dialogue and was why they were swapped out for Ron Howard, who ended up reshooting most of the movie).

A lot of people like @Ranwere criticising the series from at least halfway, but they tended to be intellectual critics, familiar with the books.  Vast numbers of casual fans still enjoyed the big set pieces, the violence, and the sex, and if the quality fell away, most viewers still found it fun (and I found it mostly fun, till some point in Season 7, where I found it increasingly ridiculous).

And, most of the media were still fawning over it.  So, even if HBO thought the scripts were shit, they would still be thinking this show would make them a ton of money - and Season 8 was doubtless profitable, even if the house of cards collapsed.

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