Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

9 hours ago, SeanF said:

I guess HBO thought that if it made them money, who cares about the quality.

As far as I can see, the ratings for season 8 were still really high.

[BlackLightning]

19 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Sorry, I'm a bit lost here. Have I missed something?

Yes you have

@Darryk asked "what were some of the season 1 changes that you were unhappy with?"

I tagged you because I was interested to see what you had to say,.

[BlackLightning]

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

A lot of people like @Ranwere criticising the series from at least halfway, but they tended to be intellectual critics, familiar with the books.

I remember a nice handful of people criticizing the show from almost the very beginning due to its sexuality. These were the "sexposition" critics...who also were the first to rail against the sexual violence the show portrayed.

3 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

As far as I can see, the ratings for season 8 were still really high.

But the reviews were getting lower and uglier with each passing episode.

It's also the final season so its immaterial. People would want to see how it would end after investing so much time into it.

[Darryk]

4 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

As far as I can see, the ratings for season 8 were still really high.

Ratings as in how many people were watching or how high the critics were rating it?

The former doesn't pertain to the quality IMO cause it was always going to get high ratings, the first few seasons were so good (mostly) that people were too invested to no watch until the end.

In terms of quality ratings, the final episode is rated 4.1 out of 10 on IMDB. 

[Le Cygne]

13 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I’m glad you posted this, because it touches on something I see all the time and don’t understand: fans placing all blame on D&D but not HBO because they “offered to shoot more seasons.” At the end of the day, D&D worked for HBO, not the other way around. They signed the checks, they oversaw every stage of production, they had the final say on everything. If they really wanted to have the show run longer, or to bring in additional writers, they could have. Instead they put their faith in the showrunners even after it became clear that things started going south as soon as they ran out of books (I know a lot of casual fans liked S5-6, but at the very least, the backlash to Dorne and RamSan—which the show hadn’t experienced yet to that degree—should have made them pick their heads up).

Oh yeah, there was a lot of backlash to season 5, among reviews on major media sites, as well as audience reviews like Rotten Tomatoes, that began the plunge that HBO ignored, that then plunged even more in the final seasons.

I think HBO figured there would be more and more new viewers to replace the ones who dropped off, thanks to all the money they were pouring into marketing. Lots of viewers were turned off along the way, but HBO didn't care.

About the 30 audience rating on Rotten Tomatoes, they say after waiting so long to see how it turned out in the end, it wiped out everything that came before. HBO is still not listening. Some samples from the first few pages of reviews:

• They threw everything we learned the past 7 seasons out the window
• The final season manages to retroactively ruin the value in rewatching past seasons as well, because you know there's no pay-off for anything they set up earlier in the show.
• How do I sell my season 1-6 Blu Ray DVD's for cash? I can't watch them anymore
• Don't spend the ungodly amount of hours watching seven seasons, just to get to a final season that actively makes you despise the entire show.
• Every thing that built up to the final was pointless.
• They ruined all the series
• Characters feel like their whole development over the seasons has been reversed or at least set back to where they started in season 1.
• What used to be my favorite series of all time has lost all rewatchability, What's the point, knowing it ends like THAT.
• It's like the entire series before this point did not matter at all
• The last 2 episodes destroyed not only the 8th season but the entire series by completely ignoring years of character's arc building and changing dramatically their attitude for no good reason
• Man, did they butcher the entire show in this season.
• Not only terrible, undermined and ruined the entire rest of the series.
• Sadly, season 7 & 8 made the entire show unwatchable.
• I tried to rewatch but I realized to myself "It's pointless this all leads to nothing impressive or even worthwhile...".
• This one season ruined the entire series
• They ruined "Game of Thrones" so much that you can't watch it again.
• The show is not re-watchable anymore
• I planned to re-watch all seasons after the last one but now I will never do that because it's just not worth it.
• It's so bad that I don't want to rewatch previous seasons
• Unfortunately, when you ruin the last season of a show like GoT there's no opportunity to fix the mess and redeem the story line and character arcs. The consequence is that the entire show is ruined.

(Added some more.)

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

Yes you have

@Darryk asked "what were some of the season 1 changes that you were unhappy with?"

I tagged you because I was interested to see what you had to say,.

Ah, sure.  Season 1 was probably closer to the the source material than any other season and AGoT might be my favourite book in the series, so I don't have many complaints here. The Hand's Tourney could have been grander, but they had a limited budget at the time. The scene with Littlefinger and Ros in the brothel was bit iffy, but I could live with that.

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

Oh yeah, there was a lot of backlash to season 5, among reviews on major media sites, as well as audience reviews like Rotten Tomatoes, that began the plunge that HBO ignored, that then plunged even more in the final seasons.

I think HBO figured there would be more and more new viewers to replace the ones who dropped off, thanks to all the money they were pouring into marketing. Lots of viewers were turned off along the way, but HBO didn't care.

About the 30 audience rating on Rotten Tomatoes, they say after waiting so long to see how it turned out in the end, it wiped out everything that came before. HBO is still not listening. Some samples from the first few pages of reviews:

• They threw everything we learned the past 7 seasons out the window
• The final season manages to retroactively ruin the value in rewatching past seasons as well, because you know there's no pay-off for anything they set up earlier in the show.
• How do I sell my season 1-6 Blu Ray DVD's for cash? I can't watch them anymore
• Don't spend the ungodly amount of hours watching seven seasons, just to get to a final season that actively makes you despise the entire show.
• Every thing that built up to the final was pointless.
• They ruined all the series
• Characters feel like their whole development over the seasons has been reversed or at least set back to where they started in season 1.
• What used to be my favorite series of all time has lost all rewatchability, What's the point, knowing it ends like THAT.
• It's like the entire series before this point did not matter at all
• The last 2 episodes destroyed not only the 8th season but the entire series by completely ignoring years of character's arc building and changing dramatically their attitude for no good reason
• Man, did they butcher the entire show in this season.
• Not only terrible, undermined and ruined the entire rest of the series.
• Sadly, season 7 & 8 made the entire show unwatchable.
• I tried to rewatch but I realized to myself "It's pointless this all leads to nothing impressive or even worthwhile...".
• This one season ruined the entire series
• They ruined "Game of Thrones" so much that you can't watch it again.
• The show is not re-watchable anymore
• I planned to re-watch all seasons after the last one but now I will never do that because it's just not worth it.
• It's so bad that I don't want to rewatch previous seasons
• Unfortunately, when you ruin the last season of a show like GoT there's no opportunity to fix the mess and redeem the story line and character arcs. The consequence is that the entire show is ruined.

I definitely think that the every-other-year release is showing itself to be a failed method. It amplified the backlash to S8 and appears to have helped bury Westworld. Stranger Things has managed to pull it off, but I think that’s a combination of it being a simpler show and it having a big teen audience that keeps the fandom alive online, much like with superhero movies. 
 

There’s been some discussion about how GOT can still be one of TV’s most-watched shows while also being so ceaselessly ridiculed. I think it’s either that a) plenty of new people watch GOT but very few re-watch it, and/or b) it’s become a show like The Vampire Diaries (and it’s spin-offs)* where lots of people still watch it but are too embarrassed to admit it lol.
 

*Those shows are always trending on Netflix. There aren’t enough teen girls to keep them that active around the clock. There are clearly plenty of adults watching too.

[EggBlue]

On 6/18/2022 at 10:18 PM, BlackLightning said:

Quoting @SeanF @The Bard of Banefort @Ran @EggBlue @Takiedevushkikakzvezdy @sifth @Moiraine Sedai @Jaenara Belarys for their input.

I might not be the person to answer this, since I first watched the show and read the books much later and thus I had no reason to complain about the show when it comes to differences with the source material.

however something that stuck out for me whilst watching season 1 was Dany and Drogo's relationship arc which I just could never be invested in. something I believe book delivered much better. to explain it, in the show they started in what was most definitely rape and were suppose to go in the direction of true love . but I remember being totally delighted when Drogo finally died although I knew it was a sad event for Daenerys ; I also never understood all the fuss about "moon of my life" "sun and stars" merchandise and fascinations with them! in the books there were toxic elements in Dany/Drogo relationship as well, but I couldn't help but find it hilarious that despite all his many faults, GRRM had done a good job in putting in Dany's consent in her very first sex scene with Drogo in 1996, whilst D&D depicted rape as they were aiming for merely a "rough start" in Dany/Drogo's relationship in 2011! 

also, I think despite all the conversations we had about how George can't write sex scenes , I believe he did a much better job than the show... although never tasteful , George can show relationship dynamics in every one of his sex scenes, something that's never been the case in the show where every sex scene is .. well.. the one position D&D love I presume! 

other than these (which alongside incest made me almost quit watching the series!) , I found season 1 a pretty good show , then and now. 

 

[EggBlue]

12 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

There’s been some discussion about how GOT can still be one of TV’s most-watched shows while also being so ceaselessly ridiculed. I think it’s either that a) plenty of new people watch GOT but very few re-watch it, and/or b) it’s become a show like The Vampire Diaries (and it’s spin-offs)* where lots of people still watch it but are too embarrassed to admit it lol.
 

*Those shows are always trending on Netflix. There aren’t enough teen girls to keep them that active around the clock. There are clearly plenty of adults watching too.

hey! Vampire Diaries and Originals are not my shameful teen shows(I actually still think Originals was good in its own right) ! ... that place is and always will be occupied by Gossip Girl even above Twilight saga ! such a waste of time...

[Le Cygne]

I think with GoT it was basically a con job. Trying to think of what fits, I keep thinking of the Ponzi scheme. A bunch of false pay-offs (a story people mostly wrote themselves by filling in the blanks) then in the end, they lost everything.

The hype was a big part of what went on with this show.

[Le Cygne]

15 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

I might not be the person to answer this, since I first watched the show and read the books much later and thus I had no reason to complain about the show when it comes to differences with the source material.

however something that stuck out for me whilst watching season 1 was Dany and Drogo's relationship arc which I just could never be invested in. something I believe book delivered much better. to explain it, in the show they started in what was most definitely rape and were suppose to go in the direction of true love . but I remember being totally delighted when Drogo finally died although I knew it was a sad event for Daenerys ; I also never understood all the fuss about "moon of my life" "sun and stars" merchandise and fascinations with them! in the books there were toxic elements in Dany/Drogo relationship as well, but I couldn't help but find it hilarious that despite all his many faults, GRRM had done a good job in putting in Dany's consent in her very first sex scene with Drogo in 1996, whilst D&D depicted rape as they were aiming for merely a "rough start" in Dany/Drogo's relationship in 2011! 

also, I think despite all the conversations we had about how George can't write sex scenes , I believe he did a much better job than the show... although never tasteful , George can show relationship dynamics in every one of his sex scenes, something that's never been the case in the show where every sex scene is .. well.. the one position D&D love I presume! 

other than these (which alongside incest made me almost quit watching the series!) , I found season 1 a pretty good show , then and now. 

 

Oh god, the way they mishandled Dany and Drogo was just a crime against storytelling, not to mention Dany and the audience and the entire saga. She named her dragon after him, Drogon was symbolic of her identity as a person, and they just thew it away on a stupid rape. Themes are for eighth grade book reports!

Just like they threw Sansa's story away. And they didn't let the Hound tell Sansa his story, that was another crime against storytelling that neither character recovered from. Early on they appropriated Sansa to be their plaything. Benioff/Weiss were basically Joffrey to Sansa, who never really was on the show.

[SeanF]

6 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Oh god, the way they mishandled Dany and Drogo was just a crime against storytelling, not to mention Dany and the audience and the entire saga. She named her dragon after him, Drogon was symbolic of her identity as a person, and they just thew it away on a stupid rape. Themes are for eighth grade book reports!

Just like they threw Sansa's story away. And they didn't let the Hound tell Sansa his story, that was another crime against storytelling that neither character recovered from. Early on they appropriated Sansa to be their plaything. Benioff/Weiss were basically Joffrey to Sansa, who never really was on the show.

Dany in the books is a curious mix of power and vulnerability, which was turned into Yaas Queen, and then very abruptly, Her Satanic Majesty. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

10 hours ago, SeanF said:

Vast numbers of casual fans still enjoyed the big set pieces, the violence, and the sex, and if the quality fell away, most viewers still found it fun...

Many viewers couldn't even keep track of all the different characters and their names. They viewed it all as a big spectacle without being very invested. I personally know some people who would fall into this category.

[Le Cygne]

The way HBO drummed up interest in the spectacle of Game of Thrones reminds me of The Music Man, when Harold Hill drummed up enthusiasm among the townspeople for a band.

You got trouble, right here in River City! Then in the end, Benioff/Weiss made their get away... but Harold Hill decided to stay and face the music, because there was an actual point to The Music Man.

[The Bard of Banefort]

2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

I think with GoT it was basically a con job. Trying to think of what fits, I keep thinking of the Ponzi scheme. A bunch of false pay-offs (a story people mostly wrote themselves by filling in the blanks) then in the end, they lost everything.

The hype was a big part of what went on with this show.

I would have to agree. And that’s another big theme, that people felt ripped off, that there was no big secret or meaning at the core of the show too. I’m struck by that myself when I think back on the second half of the show—this pervading sense of emptiness. In the end, there was just no “there” there. Spectacle can’t compensate for a lack of substance. In the words of George Lucas, “a special effect without a story is a pretty boring thing.”

This is why I think that a Jon Snow sequel will probably be an attempt to salvage what they can of GOT’s legacy. People love to say that all HBO cares about is viewers, but I don’t think that’s completely true. For one, merchandise has all but disappeared (this is something I’ve heard a lot of first-hand accounts of from people who work retail). But I’m sure that the people who manage communications/marketing for GOT are also depressed as hell. I work in communications (albeit for a much smaller company), and part of your job is monitoring comments, reviews, etc. and then reporting them to your superiors. And you do get pretty invested in how people respond. Even if the Google analytics are good, there’s no way they’re oblivious to the negativity.

One thing I didn’t realize until after S8 was just how invested people were in the White Walkers. Even the marketing was more focused on the throne, but I guess a lot of people were more interested in the traditional fantasy elements. 

Unfortunately, a lot of readers also are starting to feel used by GRRM. I still have a lot of respect for him, but having a TV show finish your story before you do is a huge blow (and I’m sure he realizes that). And it just looks worse with each new TV project they announce.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

16 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

At the end of the day, D&D worked for HBO, not the other way around. They signed the checks, they oversaw every stage of production, they had the final say on everything. If they really wanted to have the show run longer, or to bring in additional writers, they could have.

More importantly, the GoT phenomenon quickly grew much bigger than Benioff and Weiss. I don't think viewers would lose sleep if HBO switched showrunners.

[Jaenara Belarys]

@BlackLightning

 

 I definitely agree with EggBlue about the Dany/Drogo stuff in the books. Though I would not call their first interaction "sweet," it at least seems sort of consensual. The touching is odd, but at least it's not the rip off the clothes and stick it in stuff. However, it did seem odd that afterwards, it simply goes to the point where Dany wants to off herself.

But that's been covered plenty. My complaints for S1 are sort of about a little bit of the world building, battles, etc. First, we've got the Dothraki. My, oh my. The Dothraki in the books have their own worldbuilding problems (I already covered some aspects back in October/November). But at least it wasn't as frankly racist and stereotypical "barbarian nomad society who are amazing fighters." Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry covers the Dothraki quite nicely, and even Brett Devereaux (I think that's the spelling) admits he's not the complete expert, but he still pokes a billion holes into the Dothraki: Drogo rides a stallion, not a mare, the massive numbers (on a steppe, nomadic environment), the chaotic manner Dothraki comport themselves in, clothing, culture, weapons, the society, etc. 

For the show Dothraki, I don't even know where the hell they got their design for the arakh from. We can make them and it look stupid in many ways (book Dothraki arakhs have problems too, and there's the question of why do the Dothraki have arakhs in such prominence? Why don't they use their famed bows most of the time? ) First, it's got that ridiculous farm implement curve that makes it so that they can't stab effectively, so penetrating ringmail is off limits, and so is striking at the gaps of plate armor. They essentially have a useless weapon. 

There's also the deficiencies of explaining the Free Cities, and their role. The battles and armor are....bad. Lannister armor is a poor copy of almain rivet plate, the gorgets and neck protection for Jorah's armor are screwed up (why is it so prominent and bulging out? Make it on the same level as the rest of the stuff. Why the hell does Tyrion get knocked out by one of his own men?Sure, he's short, but are you telling me they don't want him alive anymore?  Not to mention only conveniently waking up after the fighting is complete. I can excuse that, mostly, though because GoT was only in its first season, not enough revenue. 

Also, in S7, note that during the scene in the Battle of the Gold Road, that Jaime's archers nock their arrows, and holddddd on those longbows for way more than people are capable of holding it. Same thing at Missandei's execution scene, they hold the bows nocked and drawn. 

18 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Compare that the Lucasfilm, where productions were stopped and reshot halfway through filming because things were going off the rails (apparently the original directors for Solo wanted to improvise most of the scenes, even though they weren’t working with comedic actors, which led to some pretty bad dialogue and was why they were swapped out for Ron Howard, who ended up reshooting most of the movie).

F***ing Disney. Except for Rogue One, they've screwed up everything but The Mandalorian.

[SeanF]

11 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Oh yeah, there was a lot of backlash to season 5, among reviews on major media sites, as well as audience reviews like Rotten Tomatoes, that began the plunge that HBO ignored, that then plunged even more in the final seasons.

I think HBO figured there would be more and more new viewers to replace the ones who dropped off, thanks to all the money they were pouring into marketing. Lots of viewers were turned off along the way, but HBO didn't care.

About the 30 audience rating on Rotten Tomatoes, they say after waiting so long to see how it turned out in the end, it wiped out everything that came before. HBO is still not listening. Some samples from the first few pages of reviews:

• They threw everything we learned the past 7 seasons out the window
• The final season manages to retroactively ruin the value in rewatching past seasons as well, because you know there's no pay-off for anything they set up earlier in the show.
• How do I sell my season 1-6 Blu Ray DVD's for cash? I can't watch them anymore
• Don't spend the ungodly amount of hours watching seven seasons, just to get to a final season that actively makes you despise the entire show.
• Every thing that built up to the final was pointless.
• They ruined all the series
• Characters feel like their whole development over the seasons has been reversed or at least set back to where they started in season 1.
• What used to be my favorite series of all time has lost all rewatchability, What's the point, knowing it ends like THAT.
• It's like the entire series before this point did not matter at all
• The last 2 episodes destroyed not only the 8th season but the entire series by completely ignoring years of character's arc building and changing dramatically their attitude for no good reason
• Man, did they butcher the entire show in this season.
• Not only terrible, undermined and ruined the entire rest of the series.
• Sadly, season 7 & 8 made the entire show unwatchable.
• I tried to rewatch but I realized to myself "It's pointless this all leads to nothing impressive or even worthwhile...".
• This one season ruined the entire series
• They ruined "Game of Thrones" so much that you can't watch it again.
• The show is not re-watchable anymore
• I planned to re-watch all seasons after the last one but now I will never do that because it's just not worth it.
• It's so bad that I don't want to rewatch previous seasons
• Unfortunately, when you ruin the last season of a show like GoT there's no opportunity to fix the mess and redeem the story line and character arcs. The consequence is that the entire show is ruined.

(Added some more.)

That was my experience.  Seasons 7 and 8 meant I don’t even wish to rewatch the good bits of prior seasons, any more.

[Angel Eyes]

14 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

@BlackLightning

 

 I definitely agree with EggBlue about the Dany/Drogo stuff in the books. Though I would not call their first interaction "sweet," it at least seems sort of consensual. The touching is odd, but at least it's not the rip off the clothes and stick it in stuff. However, it did seem odd that afterwards, it simply goes to the point where Dany wants to off herself.

But that's been covered plenty. My complaints for S1 are sort of about a little bit of the world building, battles, etc. First, we've got the Dothraki. My, oh my. The Dothraki in the books have their own worldbuilding problems (I already covered some aspects back in October/November). But at least it wasn't as frankly racist and stereotypical "barbarian nomad society who are amazing fighters." Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry covers the Dothraki quite nicely, and even Brett Devereaux (I think that's the spelling) admits he's not the complete expert, but he still pokes a billion holes into the Dothraki: Drogo rides a stallion, not a mare, the massive numbers (on a steppe, nomadic environment), the chaotic manner Dothraki comport themselves in, clothing, culture, weapons, the society, etc. 

For the show Dothraki, I don't even know where the hell they got their design for the arakh from. We can make them and it look stupid in many ways (book Dothraki arakhs have problems too, and there's the question of why do the Dothraki have arakhs in such prominence? Why don't they use their famed bows most of the time? ) First, it's got that ridiculous farm implement curve that makes it so that they can't stab effectively, so penetrating ringmail is off limits, and so is striking at the gaps of plate armor. They essentially have a useless weapon. 

There's also the deficiencies of explaining the Free Cities, and their role. The battles and armor are....bad. Lannister armor is a poor copy of almain rivet plate, the gorgets and neck protection for Jorah's armor are screwed up (why is it so prominent and bulging out? Make it on the same level as the rest of the stuff. Why the hell does Tyrion get knocked out by one of his own men?Sure, he's short, but are you telling me they don't want him alive anymore?  Not to mention only conveniently waking up after the fighting is complete. I can excuse that, mostly, though because GoT was only in its first season, not enough revenue. 

Also, in S7, note that during the scene in the Battle of the Gold Road, that Jaime's archers nock their arrows, and holddddd on those longbows for way more than people are capable of holding it. Same thing at Missandei's execution scene, they hold the bows nocked and drawn.

In the case of the Dothraki I would have expected to see more polearms given they're primarily cavalry. For the arakhs, my idea is that they're supposed to be slashing weapons, as a curved edge gives more surface area to slash with. The problem is that a curved sword doesn't give much of a thrusting ability if it's curved too much, as shown in a video with Matt Easton and the 1796 Light Cavalry Sabre.

Funnily enough with the nocked and drawn part, that was something the show originally got right, as shown in "The Watchers on the Wall" when Ser Alliser berates his troops for drawing when he didn't say to:

Quote

I said nock and hold; does nock mean draw?! (No Ser!)

 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

11 hours ago, SeanF said:

That was my experience.  Seasons 7 and 8 meant I don’t even wish to rewatch the good bits of prior seasons, any more.

To be completely fair, D&D were forced to finish a story that the author himself hasn't been able to finish in 30 years. Sure, maybe they should have done a better job, but it was no easy task.