Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

[The Bard of Banefort]

I think it’s a good idea to save the big trailer for SDCC, but it is a little odd that they’re waiting so long to do more promos for HOTD, like interviews and whatnot. It makes me wonder if this is like a Solo situation where they went over budget during filming and had to cut into the marketing budget. It’s hard to believe that we’re less than two months away now. At the very least, I’m excited for the fan art.

Update:

Okay I guess this explains it: https://www.adweek.com/convergent-tv/warner-bros-discovery-begins-ad-sales-team-layoffs-gives-upfront-update/amp/

[Le Cygne]

This is a good argument for not continuing the show with Jon Snow. Apart from the fact that most viewers wish they had never seen it, would love to forget they had, and if they think of it at all it's as an exercise in how not to write a show (which is what we talk about on this thread), the story is over.

Once again: I’m not claiming that Game of Thrones had a satisfying conclusion, but it was indeed the payoff to a story of epic scope. I’m talking the dictionary definition of “epic” here: The final season of Game of Thrones saw the long-prophesized return of a world-devouring threat in the form of the White Walkers and the Night King, effectively paying off everything that had happened in Westeros for the last 8,000 years since the White Walkers were first driven back during the Long Night. Countless generations of families and dynasties spilled their blood over the centuries, and all the twisted machinations of power and prophecy led inexorably to this conclusion. The destruction of the White Walkers and the Iron Throne is simply a logical ending place for a story—literally any dramatist could look at these events and perceive it as an ending...

The whole thing smacks of desperation, an attempt to recreate at least one series in the Game of Thrones universe (among eight!) that could be buoyed by familiar characters, rather than needing to create a new setting and cast of new faces...

Read the room, HBO. Game of Thrones concluded in 2019, and its cultural cache was already utterly spent when it did. A Jon Snow series that attempts to inject stakes back into Westeros, following the vanquishing of an evil 8,000 years in the making isn’t the solution for a botched ending. The mistake is in thinking that any response will somehow fix what’s already been done.

https://www.pastemagazine.com/tv/game-of-thrones/jon-snow-series-sequel-problems-game-of-thrones-kit-harrington/

[The Bard of Banefort]

2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

This is a good argument for not continuing the show with Jon Snow. Apart from the fact that most viewers wish they had never seen it, would love to forget they had, and if they think of it at all it's as an exercise in how not to write a show (which is what we talk about on this thread), the story is over.

Once again: I’m not claiming that Game of Thrones had a satisfying conclusion, but it was indeed the payoff to a story of epic scope. I’m talking the dictionary definition of “epic” here: The final season of Game of Thrones saw the long-prophesized return of a world-devouring threat in the form of the White Walkers and the Night King, effectively paying off everything that had happened in Westeros for the last 8,000 years since the White Walkers were first driven back during the Long Night. Countless generations of families and dynasties spilled their blood over the centuries, and all the twisted machinations of power and prophecy led inexorably to this conclusion. The destruction of the White Walkers and the Iron Throne is simply a logical ending place for a story—literally any dramatist could look at these events and perceive it as an ending...

The whole thing smacks of desperation, an attempt to recreate at least one series in the Game of Thrones universe (among eight!) that could be buoyed by familiar characters, rather than needing to create a new setting and cast of new faces...

Read the room, HBO. Game of Thrones concluded in 2019, and its cultural cache was already utterly spent when it did. A Jon Snow series that attempts to inject stakes back into Westeros, following the vanquishing of an evil 8,000 years in the making isn’t the solution for a botched ending. The mistake is in thinking that any response will somehow fix what’s already been done.

https://www.pastemagazine.com/tv/game-of-thrones/jon-snow-series-sequel-problems-game-of-thrones-kit-harrington/

Since Kit apparently was the one who came up with the spin-off idea, I think the show will, at the very least, have some heart, but yes, it does reek of desperation. Apparently once David Zaslav took over as the new WB CEO, he was stunned by how wasteful the company was with money and started cutting projects left, right, and center (ironically, Bloodmoon didn’t cut it even under the last administration). And as I recently learned, there have also been huge rounds of layoffs, although I’m not sure if that’s as a way to reallocate resources or as preparation for the recession. A Jon Snow show seems like an attempt to earn some revenue and try to rehabilitate GOT’s image after S8. I personally think it will do well, but I agree with the article that it probably won’t give fans the satisfaction they’re hoping for.

I also didn’t realize that HBO is currently unavailable in many countries, including Canada and the UK. I never really understood why they went from HBO Go to HBO Now to HBO Max.

Reading that article is a reminder of just how angry people still are about GOT. As book fans, we’ve been annoyed since the show first wandered away from the source material, but show fans seem to be a lot more upset about it than book fans are. I don’t think any of us had predicted just how hard show fans would turn on GOT.

[SeanF]

It’s noteable that not only does Season Shit have largely bad reviews on Rotten Tomatoes, the small number of good reviews are all gushing and uncritical, suggesting they’re bots, rather than genuine.

Actually, there are some excellent post Season 8 fanfics which suggest that there could be scope for a successful series, but I don’t have high hopes.

It’s quite striking that unpaid writers of fanfiction are capable of writing stories that are far more gripping, without plotholes, with characters who act in character, than the drek which we ultimately got.

[Cas Stark]

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

It’s noteable that not only does Season Shit have largely bad reviews on Rotten Tomatoes, the small number of good reviews are all gushing and uncritical, suggesting they’re bots, rather than genuine.

Actually, there are some excellent post Season 8 fanfics which suggest that there could be scope for a successful series, but I don’t have high hopes.

It’s quite striking that unpaid writers of fanfiction are capable of writing stories that are far more gripping, without plotholes, with characters who act in character, than the drek which we ultimately got.

That was always the case with GOT when fans created detailed explanations for the obvious errors and glaring pot holes and logic fails of the show starting back in season 3.  Until finally, with the last seasons, there was just no explaining away things when the showrunners themselves admitted things like Dany forgot about the navy.

GOT will always be one of those rare things that turned out much less than the sum of its parts, and IMO, the last season is going make it much harder to secure a new fan base for any of these spinoffs...which of course, since they could create a whole Westeros multiverse...makes the fucking up of the final season that much harder to understand.

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

That was always the case with GOT when fans created detailed explanations for the obvious errors and glaring pot holes and logic fails of the show starting back in season 3.  Until finally, with the last seasons, there was just no explaining away things when the showrunners themselves admitted things like Dany forgot about the navy.

GOT will always be one of those rare things that turned out much less than the sum of its parts, and IMO, the last season is going make it much harder to secure a new fan base for any of these spinoffs...which of course, since they could create a whole Westeros multiverse...makes the fucking up of the final season that much harder to understand.

I was surprised by how high the view count for the HOTD trailer was on Twitter, especially compared to the YouTube views, but then I found out that the total count includes ad views, which only requires you to watch for a few seconds to count. Apparently HBO has been promoting the trailer heavily on Twitter (I don’t have an account, so I’m hearing this all second-hand).

If the show is good, great. If it’s bad, well, then at least we can have fun dunking on it. I’m definitely going to watch HOTD, but as a book fan, it’s hard not to feel a bit conned at this point. 

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

That was always the case with GOT when fans created detailed explanations for the obvious errors and glaring pot holes and logic fails of the show starting back in season 3.  Until finally, with the last seasons, there was just no explaining away things when the showrunners themselves admitted things like Dany forgot about the navy.

GOT will always be one of those rare things that turned out much less than the sum of its parts, and IMO, the last season is going make it much harder to secure a new fan base for any of these spinoffs...which of course, since they could create a whole Westeros multiverse...makes the fucking up of the final season that much harder to understand.

They had two years to iron things out and it fell flat.

[SeanF]

18 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

This is a good argument for not continuing the show with Jon Snow. Apart from the fact that most viewers wish they had never seen it, would love to forget they had, and if they think of it at all it's as an exercise in how not to write a show (which is what we talk about on this thread), the story is over.

Once again: I’m not claiming that Game of Thrones had a satisfying conclusion, but it was indeed the payoff to a story of epic scope. I’m talking the dictionary definition of “epic” here: The final season of Game of Thrones saw the long-prophesized return of a world-devouring threat in the form of the White Walkers and the Night King, effectively paying off everything that had happened in Westeros for the last 8,000 years since the White Walkers were first driven back during the Long Night. Countless generations of families and dynasties spilled their blood over the centuries, and all the twisted machinations of power and prophecy led inexorably to this conclusion. The destruction of the White Walkers and the Iron Throne is simply a logical ending place for a story—literally any dramatist could look at these events and perceive it as an ending...

The whole thing smacks of desperation, an attempt to recreate at least one series in the Game of Thrones universe (among eight!) that could be buoyed by familiar characters, rather than needing to create a new setting and cast of new faces...

Read the room, HBO. Game of Thrones concluded in 2019, and its cultural cache was already utterly spent when it did. A Jon Snow series that attempts to inject stakes back into Westeros, following the vanquishing of an evil 8,000 years in the making isn’t the solution for a botched ending. The mistake is in thinking that any response will somehow fix what’s already been done.

https://www.pastemagazine.com/tv/game-of-thrones/jon-snow-series-sequel-problems-game-of-thrones-kit-harrington/

Another big issue is this.

Jon was, viewed objectively, a failure as a king, and a failure as a man.  He was a poor general, a poor diplomat, and he surrendered his crown without need.  Then the man who could not lie to Cersei was quite willing, next episode, to lie to his vassals about his reasons for bending the knee, throwing his lover under the bus.

Long before stabbing Daenerys to death, he was acting towards her as the  boyfriend from hell.  His “love” for her, such as it was, always came second to his loyalty to the Stark siblings.

I accept that was terrible writing, where show conflicts with tell.  We’re told that Jon is a hero.  We’re shown that he is a morally weak man, unsuited to high office.

That’s the starting point.  A Jon spin off that actually involves a redemption arc could work.  But, I suspect the premise of this show would be that Jon needs no redemption.

[Le Cygne]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Another big issue is this.

Jon was, viewed objectively, a failure as a king, and a failure as a man.  He was a poor general, a poor diplomat, and he surrendered his crown without need.  Then the man who could not lie to Cersei was quite willing, next episode, to lie to his vassals about his reasons for bending the knee, throwing his lover under the bus.

Long before stabbing Daenerys to death, he was acting towards her as the  boyfriend from hell.  His “love” for her, such as it was, always came second to his loyalty to the Stark siblings.

I accept that was terrible writing, where show conflicts with tell.  We’re told that Jon is a hero.  We’re shown that he is a morally weak man, unsuited to high office.

That’s the starting point.  A Jon spin off that actually involves a redemption arc could work.  But, I suspect the premise of this show would be that Jon needs no redemption.

Basically HBO wants to ride the gravy train of the show (even though it ran off the rails and careened off a cliff).

So yeah, he won't need redemption. Never mind that he betrayed his own family. He betrayed both Ned and Dany, he blabbed the secret his uncle died keeping and murdered his aunt so a Lannister could have brothels.

Snow will be like Shane, he may be an outsider, but he's really a good guy who will fight for what's right! Some little boy will idolize him and in the end, say Snow! as Jon rides off in the sunset.

[Le Cygne]

Emilia interview:

Clarke found fame on screen, cast in HBO's fantasy drama Game of Thrones in 2010, when only two years out of drama school. The show quickly became notorious for its explicit sex and violence, and Clarke, who was 23 when she started filming, has spoken about crying before shooting certain "terrifying" nude scenes.

But when asked now if she feels exploited or angry looking back at what happened, she picks her words very carefully. "Regret isn't something I do. It's not something I like.

"I have since not done very much nudity. Read into that what you will."...

Which raises the question - would she ever consider appearing in a spin-off to Game of Thrones, or is she done with dragons?

"No, I think I'm done," she says firmly and laughs. Emilia Clarke is ready to move on.

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-61896580

[The Bard of Banefort]

I recently read an article about Emilia with a very interesting quote from David Benioff:

Quote

All contenders for the role prepared two scenes: one from the beginning, when Daenerys is a meek, fearful girl, and one from the season finale, when she has become the "mother of dragons". "Many were good at the first scene. A few were good at the second. Only Emilia made both work," says David Benioff, co-creator, showrunner and writer of Game of Thrones (along with DB Weiss), over email. "And she made them work far better than the words on the page. It was impossible to imagine anyone else in the role: she was our one true queen. And frankly, she just has that mysterious quality that makes an actor special, that makes you want to watch them. When you find someone who matches that star quality with serious acting chops... well, you hire them."

This is obviously a very complimentary quote, but it’s also. . . not true. Because we know that they hired a different actress to play Daenerys originally, and she filmed the original pilot. And whether or not she was fired or quit is unclear. FCKAD made it sound like Tamzin Merchant was replaced, but when she was finally interviewed about it, she made it sound like she found the role demeaning (i.e. having to film sex scenes on top of a mountain); and chose not to return. But either way, they definitely didn’t watch Emilia’s audition and think “she’s the one,” because otherwise they wouldn’t have hired someone else instead. Maybe it’s this way with all shows, but this is such a weird spin considering the real story is already out there.

https://amp.theguardian.com/culture/2022/jun/26/emilia-clarke-games-of-thrones-last-christmas-seagull-the-best-place-in-the-world-is-backstage-at-a-theatre

[SeanF]

7 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Basically HBO wants to ride the gravy train of the show (even though it ran off the rails and careened off a cliff).

So yeah, he won't need redemption. Never mind that he betrayed his own family. He betrayed both Ned and Dany, he blabbed the secret his uncle died keeping and murdered his aunt so a Lannister could have brothels.

Snow will be like Shane, he may be an outsider, but he's really a good guy who will fight for what's right! Some little boy will idolize him and in the end, say Snow! as Jon rides off in the sunset.

Stabbing an essentially defenceless woman through the heart, straight after professing love and loyalty her, is not the work of a hero or even of an anti-hero.  A true hero would know he could not survive such an act.  Or, as Lloyd George put it “even Judas had the decency to hang himself.”

If he was so upset at the sack of Kings Landing, he could have disciplined his own soldiers, who he completely lost control of. In fact, everyone was quite happy to give the Northern soldiers a pass for murder and rape.  

But then, as @The Bard of Banefortpointed out, it was not about Kings Landing.  It was all about his sisters.  Sansa chose to make herself an enemy to Daenerys, not the other way round.

[The Bard of Banefort]

11 hours ago, SeanF said:

Stabbing an essentially defenceless woman through the heart, straight after professing love and loyalty her, is not the work of a hero or even of an anti-hero.  A true hero would know he could not survive such an act.  Or, as Lloyd George put it “even Judas had the decency to hang himself.”

If he was so upset at the sack of Kings Landing, he could have disciplined his own soldiers, who he completely lost control of. In fact, everyone was quite happy to give the Northern soldiers a pass for murder and rape.  

But then, as @The Bard of Banefortpointed out, it was not about Kings Landing.  It was all about his sisters.  Sansa chose to make herself an enemy to Daenerys, not the other way round.

Well, them being enemies also relied on Dany forgetting how words work. When Sansa asked what Dany would do for the North, all she had to do was say something reassuring. Instead she just sat there and didn’t say anything.

[SeanF]

43 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Well, them being enemies also relied on Dany forgetting how words work. When Sansa asked what Dany would do for the North, all she had to do was say something reassuring. Instead she just sat there and didn’t say anything.

While that’s true, it’s hard to see what more she could have delivered, in terms of commitment, than two dragons and the  world’s biggest army.

Sansa ought to have been happy to have a ruler who would largely leave her family to rule the North as they saw fit.

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Well, them being enemies also relied on Dany forgetting how words work. When Sansa asked what Dany would do for the North, all she had to do was say something reassuring. Instead she just sat there and didn’t say anything.

That happened a few times in Season 8, where you'd have someone about to have a big conversation and leaving it hanging, like Sansa asking if Jon bent the knee because he loved Daenerys, the conversation between Sansa and Daenerys, and Jon revealing his parentage.

[SeanF]

32 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

That happened a few times in Season 8, where you'd have someone about to have a big conversation and leaving it hanging, like Sansa asking if Jon bent the knee because he loved Daenerys, the conversation between Sansa and Daenerys, and Jon revealing his parentage.

That was infuriating.

[The Bard of Banefort]

On 7/3/2022 at 11:53 AM, Angel Eyes said:

They had two years to iron things out and it fell flat.

This is one of the big problems with the every-other-year TV model. If you make people wait, the pay-off needs to make up for the lost time. I haven’t watched the new season of Stranger Things, but it sounds like they managed to pull it off. S8 definitely did not.

[Angel Eyes]

Another continuity issue from Season 1: In "Lord Snow", Robert mentions that the first man he killed was a Tarly at the Battles of Summerhall. Since the battles were fought in the Stormlands, what was a Tarly from the Reach doing in the Stormlands? Say, was there a Tarly brother we don't know about fostering in the Stormlands under Lord Fell to give an example?

[Jaenara Belarys]

On 7/3/2022 at 12:36 AM, SeanF said:

Actually, there are some excellent post Season 8 fanfics which suggest that there could be scope for a successful series, but I don’t have high hopes.

 

Speaking as one who reads them fairly often, I do like a lot of the stories (my guilty pleasures are the revenge fics), but all I can think of is "This is after S8." The only ones I can often really sink into are the fix its that start at the beginning of S7. 

My favorite fix it was Forewarned, by ReganX. It gave me a big justice boner (*Spoiler, the Starks don't get a free ride and two die horrible deaths), and while it obviously has a couple of problems, it's still really good and treats the Queen how she deserved. 

[Lady Fevre Dream]

So, no one is talking about GRRM's latest Winds post?  I found it on Twitter a little while ago.  It's a lot of talk and thought about Winds, and even GOT, that's for sure, LOLOL  I'm almost impressed with just the amount of info in it.  Of course, you couldn't pay me to expect anything, though, HA

https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2022/07/08/a-winter-garden/