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Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!


The Fattest Leech

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4 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Oh dear, well, that's one way of pretending massive amounts of people didn't like season 8. (Scroll to Wars to Come section.)

At least the guy who wrote the article said this: "To be fair, it’s not difficult to find Thrones fans in real life who are also critical of the ending."

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-features/inside-house-of-the-dragon-trailer-cast-1235182776/

It’s completely dishonest.  Any number of people who loved the books, or loved earlier seasons of the show, detested Season Shit.  

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48 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It’s completely dishonest.  Any number of people who loved the books, or loved earlier seasons of the show, detested Season Shit.  

Yep. And it's disingenuous to make tons of money hyping a show on social media/the internet, then blast it as some abstract thing that doesn't actually involve real people when it doesn't go your way.

File these with the "they just didn't want it to end" talking points. One day they might consider 1) owning up to their mistakes and 2) listening to people instead of making excuses (and insulting them).

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Well all these studios have good propaganda machines.

Also Martin has to say stuff like this because he's got a good relationship with HBO.

Anyway I don't blame HBO for the mess that was season 8 and am still keen to watch HOTD cause the production and acting looks excellent, as you'd expect from an HBO show.

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I think they know they played a part in the disaster (whether from lack of oversight to not delivering the rest of the story) or they wouldn't be so cranky about it.

(As for the new show, not interested. I just watched the trailer, and it looks very GoT to me, a game of thrones. I would have preferred Dunk and Egg, or better yet, ASOIAF.)

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This is a "look at how the showrunners took those dragons in the final two seasons and purposefully and maliciously used them against us to further their own poorly written narrative":

"The use of the dragons against us was a descent that started slow subtle and sinister but one that eventually plunged into pure abject nonsense... Huge swaths of the last two seasons problems are actually centered on the dragons and the show using them as tools to knowingly manipulate the audience. In fact many of the same narrative tools that worked to endear us to the dragons were used to make us accept the bad writing in hopes of something better on the horizon. With hindsight being 20/20, I'll just say it, there was nothing better...

"All that was required for Daenerys was for her to fly her dragons to King's Landing, immediately see the Red Keep, and capture Cersei. This could have been done with no leading or no planning whatsoever... Tyrion warns that using the dragons against King's Landing would kill tens of thousands of innocent bystanders, but what that statement does is wipe away all the previously established nuance that the show went out of its way to create... The show inexplicably is literally treating them as indiscriminate killing machines when there is a plethora of evidence to the contrary...

"Across seasons 7 and 8 there isn't a single dedicated scene or moment that properly explores Daenerys' feelings about her children dying or her coping mechanisms or lack thereof. In fact almost the opposite happens shortly after the death of Viserion. Daenerys takes the dragons and Jon out for a spin seemingly without a care in the world... It is hard for me to accept Dany's subdued reaction to seeing her child murdered when the show has previously and plainly showed us how emotional she becomes when the situation concerns the safety of her dragons...

"This connection between Jon and the dragons is made, creating a tone where such a connection would be pivotal to the outcome of the plot, only for nothing to come of it... When Rhaegal was shot out of the sky in a surprisingly grotesque way, I don't even think there was a scene of Jon mourning this dragon named after his father, and that's because Jon didn't care about these lizards... The dragons were underhandedly used to hype up Jon's narrative potential while ultimately having no impact on his personal journey..."

(added/fixed quotes)

 

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26 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Every time I see videos like this, the part they praise is what GRRM wrote that was used in the early seasons, and the part they blast is when Benioff/Weiss strayed/wrote their own stuff.

This one is "a one year late look at how the showrunners took those dragons in the final two seasons and purposefully and maliciously used them against us to further their own poorly written narrative":

"The use of the dragons against us was a descent that started slow subtle and sinister but one that eventually plunged into pure abject nonsense... Huge swaths of the last two seasons problems are actually centered on the dragons and the show using them as tools to knowingly manipulate the audience. In fact many of the same narrative tools that worked to endear us to the dragons were used to make us accept the bad writing in hopes of something better on the horizon. With hindsight being 20/20, I'll just say it there was nothing better...

"All that was required for Daenerys was for her to fly her dragons to King's Landing immediately sees the Red Keep and capture Cersei this could have been done with no leading or no planning whatsoever... Tyrion warns that using the dragons against King's Landing would kill tens of thousands of innocent bystanders, but what that statement does is wipe away all the previously established nuance that the show went out of its way to create... The show inexplicably is literally treating them as indiscriminate killing machines when there is a plethora of evidence to the contrary...

"This connection between Jon and the dragons is made, creating a tone where such a connection would be pivotal to the outcome of the plot only for nothing to come of it... When Rhaegal was shot out of the sky in a surprisingly grotesque way, I don't even think there was a scene of Jon mourning this dragon named after his father, and that's because Jon didn't care about these lizards... The dragons were underhandedly used to hype up Jon's narrative potential while ultimately having no impact on his personal journey..."

 

I might be biased because I never really liked dragons, but their novelty seemed to wear off after seeing them in action a few times. I’ve seen very little said about them, good or bad, in all the many analyses of GOT. I wonder how that will impact HOTD.

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33 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

This is a "look at how the showrunners took those dragons in the final two seasons and purposefully and maliciously used them against us to further their own poorly written narrative":

"The use of the dragons against us was a descent that started slow subtle and sinister but one that eventually plunged into pure abject nonsense... Huge swaths of the last two seasons problems are actually centered on the dragons and the show using them as tools to knowingly manipulate the audience. In fact many of the same narrative tools that worked to endear us to the dragons were used to make us accept the bad writing in hopes of something better on the horizon. With hindsight being 20/20, I'll just say it there was nothing better...

"All that was required for Daenerys was for her to fly her dragons to King's Landing immediately sees the Red Keep and capture Cersei this could have been done with no leading or no planning whatsoever... Tyrion warns that using the dragons against King's Landing would kill tens of thousands of innocent bystanders, but what that statement does is wipe away all the previously established nuance that the show went out of its way to create... The show inexplicably is literally treating them as indiscriminate killing machines when there is a plethora of evidence to the contrary...

"This connection between Jon and the dragons is made, creating a tone where such a connection would be pivotal to the outcome of the plot only for nothing to come of it... When Rhaegal was shot out of the sky in a surprisingly grotesque way, I don't even think there was a scene of Jon mourning this dragon named after his father, and that's because Jon didn't care about these lizards... The dragons were underhandedly used to hype up Jon's narrative potential while ultimately having no impact on his personal journey..."

 

Tyrion’s statement was bollocks (like everything that came out of his mouth by this stage) as the Red Keep is located on a peninsula, away from the city.  Destroying the Red Keep would have killed civilians within it, but far fewer than would have died  by the  prolonged, convoluted, war that Tyrion favoured.

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It would've been more interesting if Tyrion's bad advice was a result of inner conflict as to whether to help her defeat House Lannister, but of course that doesn't fit in with the show's version of Tyrion who would never do anything malicious.

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34 minutes ago, Darryk said:

It would've been more interesting if Tyrion's bad advice was a result of inner conflict as to whether to help her defeat House Lannister, but of course that doesn't fit in with the show's version of Tyrion who would never do anything malicious.

Well, it is a point of discussion between him and Daenerys about whether or not he's holding back. That being said Tyrion isn't afraid to do malicious stuff, particularly in the earlier seasons, and has no problems about stabbing someone in the back as shown in Season 5 during the pit battle.

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5 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, it is a point of discussion between him and Daenerys about whether or not he's holding back. That being said Tyrion isn't afraid to do malicious stuff, particularly in the earlier seasons, and has no problems about stabbing someone in the back as shown in Season 5 during the pit battle.

Yeah but the discussion you refer to seemed more intended to make Dany look paranoid than to make Tyrion's motivations suspicious.

Earlier in the season Tyrion was still a bit more loyal to the book version; from about season 3 or 4 onwards he gradually became a classic good guy.

Stabbing someone in the back isn't really a form of subtle characterization.

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50 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, it is a point of discussion between him and Daenerys about whether or not he's holding back. That being said Tyrion isn't afraid to do malicious stuff, particularly in the earlier seasons, and has no problems about stabbing someone in the back as shown in Season 5 during the pit battle.

I think there are only two ways of rationalising Tyrion’s behaviour and advice in Seasons 7 and 8:-

1.  He’s an overpromoted nonentity, whose limitations are quite obvious, once he’s no longer working with his father and sister,

2.  He’s deliberately giving Dany bad advice, in order to ensure that his siblings aren’t defeated.  That’s quite consistent with his wanting to starve, rather than storm Kings Landing, as Cersei would not starve.  It’s consistent with his efforts to rescue her at the end and explains his throwing down his pin of office, after seeing his siblings’ corpses.

Of course, poor writing is the likeliest explanation.

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8 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think there are only two ways of rationalising Tyrion’s behaviour and advice in Seasons 7 and 8:-

1.  He’s an overpromoted nonentity, whose limitations are quite obvious, once he’s no longer working with his father and sister,

2.  He’s deliberately giving Dany bad advice, in order to ensure that his siblings aren’t defeated.  That’s quite consistent with his wanting to starve, rather than storm Kings Landing, as Cersei would not starve.  It’s consistent with his efforts to rescue her at the end and explains his throwing down his pin of office, after seeing his siblings’ corpses.

Of course, poor writing is the likeliest explanation.

It could tie back into your theories of mercy being shown as bad throughout the books and show, given that Tyrion holding back against his siblings is what screws his side over.

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31 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

It could tie back into your theories of mercy being shown as bad throughout the books and show, given that Tyrion holding back against his siblings is what screws his side over.

The show was all over the place in its portrayal of violence.  Arya’s gruesome killings, Ramsay being fed to dogs, Tyrion’s shooting his father were all meant to be fist-pumping moments.  But, then we got stupidities like Barristan saying “answer injustice with mercy” or the idea the Tarlys should be offered unconditional forgiveness, or bells meaning surrender, completely at variance with the values and facts that had been established in this world.

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Hypothetical crossover moment:

So this came from a crossover fanfic I stumbled on (heresy I know) called To Rule Them All where after "The Bells", Daenerys is visited by a certain...bringer of gifts who offers her a Ring of Power.

Here's the scenario: Say Sauron meets with each of the Five Kings, offering a Ring. What would be their goals? Would they choose the Ring? If they choose the Ring, how would they use it? If they reject the Ring, for what reasons?

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On 7/23/2022 at 7:58 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

I might be biased because I never really liked dragons, but their novelty seemed to wear off after seeing them in action a few times. I’ve seen very little said about them, good or bad, in all the many analyses of GOT. I wonder how that will impact HOTD.

I wasn't a dragon person going in, but I did like the symbolism in the books, which the show of course ignored. At some point on the show, I liked the dragons better than the people! So of course Benioff/Weiss did them dirty, too.

Viserion and Rhaegal went down in such stupidly contrived ways, and never were given their due. Then poor Drogon was character assassinated along with the rest of the characters (he totally would have torched Dany's murderer).

(They totally trashed Dany's last chapter in ADWD, which was one of the best things in the books. Then season 7 and 8 existed just to trash anything they hadn't already trashed, so they figured hey, let's mess with the dragons.)

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Speaking of Daenerys' last chapter, something I was thinking about with Daenerys' dysentery problems in that chapter; how come GRRM never goes in detail with Bran having problems due to his paralysis or Jaime having problems lacing up after losing his hand? And not like Benioff and Weiss have any problem delving into gross-out humor like Sam's poop-scrubbing montage at the Citadel or flaying Jorah and the scene cutting to a meat pie.

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Speaking of Daenerys' last chapter, something I was thinking about with Daenerys' dysentery problems in that chapter; how come GRRM never goes in detail with Bran having problems due to his paralysis or Jaime having problems lacing up after losing his hand? And not like Benioff and Weiss have any problem delving into gross-out humor like Sam's poop-scrubbing montage at the Citadel or flaying Jorah and the scene cutting to a meat pie.

Well, GRRM does go in detail with Jaime having problems after losing his hand. Not Bran though.

 

It's a good point. I don't think GRRM has a stomach for stuff like that. Dany seems to be the exception because GRRM puts all sorts of crazy stuff in her chapters.

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2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

I wasn't a dragon person going in, but I did like the symbolism in the books, which the show of course ignored. At some point on the show, I liked the dragons better than the people! So of course Benioff/Weiss did them dirty, too.

Viserion and Rhaegal went down in such stupidly contrived ways, and never were given their due. Then poor Drogon was character assassinated along with the rest of the characters (he totally would have torched Dany's murderer).

(They totally trashed Dany's last chapter in ADWD, which was one of the best things in the books. Then season 7 and 8 existed just to trash anything they hadn't already trashed, so they figured hey, let's mess with the dragons.)

The scene in Daznak’s Pit presents Dany in a far less heroic light than the corresponding book scene.

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19 hours ago, SeanF said:

The scene in Daznak’s Pit presents Dany in a far less heroic light than the corresponding book scene.

It makes one wonder how the rest escaped from the pit since Daenerys books while they're surrounded. That would have been an interesting sequence.

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