Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

[apovsic]

Also thank you D&D. I now get some extra argument points when I argue no ending > bad ending.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

11 hours ago, apovsic said:

This thread is still active? Nice

 

So I watched GoT up until S6E4, then I just couldn't watch it, because it was just so bad (mainly because of the Stannis plot from S5 and Jon resurrection plot from S6). So from then I tried to avoid spoilers (yeah, didn't worked out) and then my passion for ASOIF slowly cooled out (hmm, why is that, George? ). So to prepare for the HoD I decided to watch all the episodes from the beginning of S6. And boy oh boy, I have some things on my mind.

Firstly, the soundtrack is awesome. Light of the Seven is great, but The Night king , I actually rewatch the scene several times, just because of the music. Secondly visually the show was better every season (of course this only applies when you could see anything).

Now let's take season to season:

S6: very mixed bag and honestly it's the hardest to watch, because it still feels like GoT from previous (1-4) seasons, just off, it's like some kind of uncanny valley, characters are begging to transform into their zombie forms from S8, but they are still (mainly) the characters that were before. Now to the 5 "big" moments:

1. I really liked Bealor's sept explosion (music!), the whole scene was well done (unfortunately I was spoiled what would happen, but still),
2. Jon's heritage was well done, the transition from baby to Jon face (music!) and then "King of the north") manage to brought (for the last time) tears into my eyes (it was probably a lot of nostalgic feelings for S1, but hey, they manage to get me feel something positive).
3. OTOH: "Hold the door" scene was very mixed, Hodor's dead and his origin story was well done, but the way they killed Summer was just slap in the face, I was really pissed at that).
4. I was kinda hyped for BoB, everyone said that it was cool, I mean sure visually it looked impressive, but story wise (Rickon's death, Jon's plot armor, Vale's Deus Ex machina, Ramsey shooting the giant instead of Jon, ...) is just stupid, biggest disappointment of my watch.
5. Jon's ressurections: what was the point?

S7: the least entertaining season to watch.  It's not GoT anymore, but it isn't shit enough to be funny. Everything feels rushed, everyone is teleporting, Westeros is like 5 km^2 big. It's just bland. I don't really remember anything from the season, except Drogon's burning of Lannisters scene, the death of the Artist previously know as Littlefinger and Viserion's death and resurrection. Just bah.

S8: Firs two episodes where actually OK (for example Brienne's knighting), I was kinda surprised, because I thought it'l shitstorm from beginning to end. Third episode starts great, I was really feeling IT, the dread before the final battle, the middle part was then hit and miss (tactics were stupid, but some visuals were nice), but then when the wights break into the Winterfell all went meh. Arrya's Cat and mouse game was boring, all the main characters were on the brink of the death for like 45 min and then almost all of theme make it out alive (except Jorah, I think it was done ok and Theon, which death was ruined by the next scene (ninja Arya) and Edd, blase his soul). Night King approach was Ok (music!!!), but then ninja Arya was just meh. OK, E4 OK, I forgot what even happened there. E5: Jeusus, what have they done to Danny? I remember some Danny's fan who was complaining to me before, how they butchered her arc and I said, yeah they done the same to Stannis. Sorry, no, I was very, very wrong. Uf. And Jaime WTF, one line annihilated his whole character in a second. S6: some really subtle nazi imagery there D&D, well done, I didn't know that Dany is now evil. Jon killing Dany: eh, I was just drained at this point. "Great" council scene:  awesome. Jon is still alive somehow? Anyhow, ending was kinda OK, I was just pissed that it didn't end with the door on the Wall closing, because you know, it begins with door opening.

Overall I prefer S8>S7, because it actually made me feel something (rage and hysterical laughter), S7 was just slug-fest. Also I like Euron in the show, it wouldn't fit in the earlier season, but he was perfect the last two (I actually chuckled at "Finger in the bum" and then "Shh, we'll talk later" scene at least he was not pretending to be in the GoT like some others still did).

Anyway I'll now go and watch all the "Why GoT got bad" YT videos that I get recommended since I watched HoD trailer.

Ha, that was a fun read.  I cannot imagine watching those shit seasons for the first time, NOW, but damn, thanks for sharing.  It really is astounding how awfully, awful GOT really did become.  

[Le Cygne]

It's funny, the "why GoT sucks" videos have more thought and care than the show did. It's been more entertaining to watch them than the show!

[The Bard of Banefort]

I’ve been thinking about how it feels like GOT fell off the radar as soon as it ended, and how some people push back against the claim that “no one cares about Game of Thrones anymore” by pointing out how the ratings are still high. I’m starting to think that it’s not so much that GOT became culturally irrelevant, but rather that how it is perceived by the culture changed dramatically in the span of a few short weeks. Like Peter Jackson’s LOTR trilogy, the first few seasons of GOT were made at a high enough quality that it became acceptable for adults to both enjoy and admit that they enjoyed it in public. And unlike LOTR, there was all sorts of debauchery involved (to quote Lindsay Ellis, GOT was “hot fantasy that fucks”). One of the reasons why all the sexual assault was excused for so long was because GOT was sErIoUs eNtErTaInMeNt, not some silly magic show. 

For book fans, the cracks began to show in S5, and it was becoming increasingly clear that D&D are more like Michael Bay than Martin Scorsese. But there was so much goodwill built up from the first few seasons that most people didn’t care, and they all figured that the end would justify the bumps in the road. In the meantime, all the tenets of cheap fantasy entertainment were becoming more common: ridiculous costumes, plot holes, faux-serious dialogue (like when Dany told Tyrion to stay in the Winterfell crypts to protect his brilliant mind lol).

But then the ending was so nonsensical and absurd—and revealed that most of the last few seasons really was just the showrunners throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks—that it was now a little embarrassing to love this show with so much goofy dialogue and violence bordering on torture porn. And in a way, S8 also denied them the catharsis of being able to watch a “serious” show where the Byronic hero slays the demon monster. So even as people kept watching the show at home, they stopped talking about it and wearing/displaying merchandise. GOT was now—well, it was now like The Vampire Diaries: a show many adults find immensely enjoyable to watch, but are too embarrassed to admit they watch. That veneer of respectability was ripped away.

That’s my theory, anyway.

 

[Farerb]

For me cracks began to show in season 2 rather than season 5, with Talisa Maegyr, the sassy nurse who thinks it's okay to be rude to a king , "tough but fair" grandpa Tywin, Ygritte sexually assaulting Jon and the entirety of Qarth.

[BlackLightning]

3 hours ago, farerb said:

For me cracks began to show in season 2 rather than season 5, with Talisa Maegyr, the sassy nurse who thinks it's okay to be rude to a king , "tough but fair" grandpa Tywin, Ygritte sexually assaulting Jon and the entirety of Qarth.

Well, Ygritte sexually assaulting is actually book accurate. More or less.

That's essentially what happens; it just happens a season earlier. Jon is coerced into losing his virginity. It's a lot like it was with Dany: I wouldn't call it (first-degree) rape but...it's not done out of free will.

But other than that I agree.

"Tough but fair" grandpa Tyrion was only a very big issue because it took way too much time and completely derailed the plot of the War of the Five Kings. Roose Bolton got to Harrenhal way too late.

The Talisa Maegyr thing was a mess. But it still could've been salvaged if we saw House Maegyr come back (in a big way) in the Essos stories (Dany, Tyrion or Arya...but especially Tyrion). If they popped up at Winterfell during season 7 (or evem if Sansa reached out to them in season 6), it would've given Littlefinger and the Starks something to do in Winterfell that wasn't completely idiotic or inexplicable.

[Angel Eyes]

23 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

The Talisa Maegyr thing was a mess. But it still could've been salvaged if we saw House Maegyr come back (in a big way) in the Essos stories (Dany, Tyrion or Arya...but especially Tyrion). If they popped up at Winterfell during season 7 (or evem if Sansa reached out to them in season 6), it would've given Littlefinger and the Starks something to do in Winterfell that wasn't completely idiotic or inexplicable.

Remind me, did Sansa know that Robb was married to the Maegyrs? If Sansa wasn't aware she wouldn't have reached out to them. But I guess Benioff and Weiss wanted to write her out since the only characters who really talk about her at any point are Arya and Robett Glover.

So, if you fancy yourself a good writer, what would be a good Season 7 plot to incorporate the Maegyrs into the story? I'd suggest a young man, let's call him Darron as an offshoot of Daeron, comes to Winterfell asking for the return of Talisa's body (I believe that Talisa had a younger brother who nearly drowned). A nice enough fellow, charming; there may be a mutual attraction, which would derail Littlefinger's plans for Sansa. If we want to throw a plot where Sansa is pitted against Daenerys, have him talk about his family's problems since Daenerys' crusade has disrupted society in Essos on some level. As far as northern politics are concerned, his presence would ratchet up tensions due to being foreign-born.

[Nevets]

5 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Well, Ygritte sexually assaulting is actually book accurate. More or less.

That's essentially what happens; it just happens a season earlier. Jon is coerced into losing his virginity. It's a lot like it was with Dany: I wouldn't call it (first-degree) rape but...it's not done out of free will.

But other than that I agree.

"Tough but fair" grandpa Tyrion was only a very big issue because it took way too much time and completely derailed the plot of the War of the Five Kings. Roose Bolton got to Harrenhal way too late.

The Talisa Maegyr thing was a mess. But it still could've been salvaged if we saw House Maegyr come back (in a big way) in the Essos stories (Dany, Tyrion or Arya...but especially Tyrion). If they popped up at Winterfell during season 7 (or evem if Sansa reached out to them in season 6), it would've given Littlefinger and the Starks something to do in Winterfell that wasn't completely idiotic or inexplicable.

My biggest problem with Talisa was that Robb had no discernible reason to marry her.  Being in love isn't sufficient; not in his situation.  And she wasn't losing anything by not being married.  Plus, they had a perfectly good story from the book to work with.

Tywin's grandpa act made Arya's stay at Harrenhal look like simply a bad vacation, and not the hellhole that it was.  She spent her time there feeling helpless and scared; it's the main reason she's such a fucked up mess when she gets to Braavos.  We get none of that from the show.

I will say that the real problems came in season 5, when characters' actions ceased making sense.

[Angel Eyes]

40 minutes ago, Nevets said:

 

Tywin's grandpa act made Arya's stay at Harrenhal look like simply a bad vacation, and not the hellhole that it was.  She spent her time there feeling helpless and scared; it's the main reason she's such a fucked up mess when she gets to Braavos.  We get none of that from the show.

I will say that the real problems came in season 5, when characters' actions ceased making sense.

Well, the whole Tywin's grandpa act was subsequently forgotten since Arya says she'd die rather than serve the Lannisters... which she did. Which makes Arya look like a hypocrite.

 

[Nevets]

4 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, the whole Tywin's grandpa act was subsequently forgotten since Arya says she'd die rather than serve the Lannisters... which she did. Which makes Arya look like a hypocrite.

 

The biggest problem was that Arya had no reason to be afraid.  And not a "Tywin might find out who I am and ... send me to KL of CR" but "someone might beat me, rape me or kill me because he feels like it and can get away with it".  Much scarier.

[Angel Eyes]

2 minutes ago, Nevets said:

The biggest problem was that Arya had no reason to be afraid.  And not a "Tywin might find out who I am and ... send me to KL of CR" but "someone might beat me, rape me or kill me because he feels like it and can get away with it".  Much scarier.

Well that's why she gives Jaqen his own name right? It's when Tywin sets off for Blackwater and leaves The Mountain as castellan that Arya makes Jaqen help her escape.

[BlackLightning]

On 8/5/2022 at 4:53 PM, Angel Eyes said:

So, if you fancy yourself a good writer, what would be a good Season 7 plot to incorporate the Maegyrs into the story?

I'll respond to this in this thread: 

 

[Le Cygne]

On 8/5/2022 at 12:40 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

I’ve been thinking about how it feels like GOT fell off the radar as soon as it ended, and how some people push back against the claim that “no one cares about Game of Thrones anymore” by pointing out how the ratings are still high. I’m starting to think that it’s not so much that GOT became culturally irrelevant, but rather that how it is perceived by the culture changed dramatically in the span of a few short weeks. Like Peter Jackson’s LOTR trilogy, the first few seasons of GOT were made at a high enough quality that it became acceptable for adults to both enjoy and admit that they enjoyed it in public. And unlike LOTR, there was all sorts of debauchery involved (to quote Lindsay Ellis, GOT was “hot fantasy that fucks”). One of the reasons why all the sexual assault was excused for so long was because GOT was sErIoUs eNtErTaInMeNt, not some silly magic show. 

For book fans, the cracks began to show in S5, and it was becoming increasingly clear that D&D are more like Michael Bay than Martin Scorsese. But there was so much goodwill built up from the first few seasons that most people didn’t care, and they all figured that the end would justify the bumps in the road. In the meantime, all the tenets of cheap fantasy entertainment were becoming more common: ridiculous costumes, plot holes, faux-serious dialogue (like when Dany told Tyrion to stay in the Winterfell crypts to protect his brilliant mind lol).

But then the ending was so nonsensical and absurd—and revealed that most of the last few seasons really was just the showrunners throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks—that it was now a little embarrassing to love this show with so much goofy dialogue and violence bordering on torture porn. And in a way, S8 also denied them the catharsis of being able to watch a “serious” show where the Byronic hero slays the demon monster. So even as people kept watching the show at home, they stopped talking about it and wearing/displaying merchandise. GOT was now—well, it was now like The Vampire Diaries: a show many adults find immensely enjoyable to watch, but are too embarrassed to admit they watch. That veneer of respectability was ripped away.

That’s my theory, anyway.

It's true, goodwill carries a show a long way. Sometimes shows really are good, but then lose it in the end (either final season or finale), and that's a challenge for viewers. Wanting to like something goes a long way.

I think some are in "just hang in there and it will be worth it in the end" mode, and stay busy or distracted with the audience participation necessary along the way (filling in the holes  or the unknown in the story).

And then there are the ones who are in it for the wrong reasons, like seeing characters punished or rewarded based on personal biases, where it makes them feel good to sit in judgement and watch it unfold.

Basically even when the conductor gets lost, there are plenty of people who will stay on the train, because it's going where they want it to go now, or the fallacy of sunk costs (justifying time spent watching).

I think the ending to a show that's not an episodic comedy (like Seinfeld) matters a lot. It's hard to watch all over again, knowing it ends badly - most come into a show with hope, and if that's dashed, won't want to relive that.

[SeanF]

46 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

It's true, goodwill carries a show a long way. Sometimes shows really are good, but then lose it in the end (either final season or finale), and that's a challenge for viewers. Wanting to like something goes a long way.

I think some are in "just hang in there and it will be worth it in the end" mode, and stay busy or distracted with the audience participation necessary along the way (filling in the holes  or the unknown in the story).

And then there are the ones who are in it for the wrong reasons, like seeing characters punished or rewarded based on personal biases, where it makes them feel good to sit in judgement and watch it unfold.

Basically even when the conductor gets lost, there are plenty of people who will stay on the train, because it's going where they want it to go now, or the fallacy of sunk costs (justifying time spent watching).

I think the ending to a show that's not an episodic comedy (like Seinfeld) matters a lot. It's hard to watch all over again, knowing it ends badly - most come into a show with hope, and if that's dashed, won't want to relive that.

Knowing that it all goes to shit at the end, for both Dany and Jon, just kills off any interest in rewatching any part of the show, for me.

I couldn’t give a toss  that Tyrion and Bronn got to josh about brothels, happy as a pair of pigs in shit;  that Sam got to break all his vows and got a position he was never entitled to;  that Sansa got her tinpot crown, and that the Bran 9000 had “the best story”.

[The Bard of Banefort]

I decided to watch the old GOT trailers to see how they compared to the HOTD trailers. Some observations:

• They're not as good as I remember them being, although that's probably the result of presentism. The earlier seasons usually had one trailer focusing on the game of thrones and another focusing more on the magic. They started to merge around season four or so. 
• The first season's trailers were not very good, to be honest. It feels like it was made in an earlier era of television, before YouTube drastically increased trailers' relevance, and the show was clearly banking on Sean Bean to bring in an audience. 
• Unlike the HOTD trailers, there was more of a focus on romance and sex (with the exception of S8, which was just a pretty dull "preparing for battle" trailer). Surprising number of shots of Yara kissing other women and of Jaime and Cersei in S6-7. Also lots of shots of women stripping their clothes off (mostly the prostitutes and Melisandre, but also Sansa being stripped in S2 and Dany in S6).
• Watching these trailers, you would come away thinking that Cersei was the main protagonist. She had the largest role in almost every one.
• The emphasis on the White Walkers was HUGE. No wonder it backfired so spectacularly. Bran was surprisingly prevalent for the first four seasons.
• Arya was featured quite sparingly for the first four seasons or so, which surprised me given how popular of a character she was and how much screen time she had. Sansa, who was very unpopular during this same period, was featured more prominently. If I had to guess, this was probably because Sansa was generally considered more conventionally attractive--same with Mel and Margaery, who were also featured prominently despite having considerably less screen time.
  • Not to sound like a Twitter pundit, but the trailers were clearly tailored to attract a male audience. (For instance, I don't think there are any shirtless dudes except for Theon on the torture cross). The appeals to women seem to have been the "badass" shots of Cersei and Daenerys.
• If I remember correctly, every single trailer had a slow-mo shot of horses hooves.
• Lots of shots of the Hound swinging his sword.
• Jaime started to be featured much more prominently beginning in S4. 
• One thing the HOTD trailer has that the GOT trailers didn't, in addition to larger dragons, are women speaking directly to each other. If I remember correctly, the only instance of this for GOT was a quick shot of Melisandre talking to Shireen.
• More CGI in the HOTD trailer, and I don't mean the dragons. A lot of the wide shots, like the tourney stadium, have that same glossy look that the Hobbit movies (which I loved, by the way) had. 
• I would rank the HOTD trailer above both the S1 and S8 trailers, but below the other seasons. Although hindsight has proven most of the dialogue to be quite vacuous, the trailer soundbites were a lot more chilling/memorable than "now they see you as you are" or "when I am queen I will create a new order."

[Le Cygne]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I decided to watch the old GOT trailers to see how they compared to the HOTD trailers. Some observations:

• They're not as good as I remember them being, although that's probably the result of presentism. The earlier seasons usually had one trailer focusing on the game of thrones and another focusing more on the magic. They started to merge around season four or so. 
• The first season's trailers were not very good, to be honest. It feels like it was made in an earlier era of television, before YouTube drastically increased trailers' relevance, and the show was clearly banking on Sean Bean to bring in an audience. 
• Unlike the HOTD trailers, there was more of a focus on romance and sex (with the exception of S8, which was just a pretty dull "preparing for battle" trailer). Surprising number of shots of Yara kissing other women and of Jaime and Cersei in S6-7. Also lots of shots of women stripping their clothes off (mostly the prostitutes and Melisandre, but also Sansa being stripped in S2 and Dany in S6).
• Watching these trailers, you would come away thinking that Cersei was the main protagonist. She had the largest role in almost every one.
• The emphasis on the White Walkers was HUGE. No wonder it backfired so spectacularly. Bran was surprisingly prevalent for the first four seasons.
• Arya was featured quite sparingly for the first four seasons or so, which surprised me given how popular of a character she was and how much screen time she had. Sansa, who was very unpopular during this same period, was featured more prominently. If I had to guess, this was probably because Sansa was generally considered more conventionally attractive--same with Mel and Margaery, who were also featured prominently despite having considerably less screen time.
  • Not to sound like a Twitter pundit, but the trailers were clearly tailored to attract a male audience. (For instance, I don't think there are any shirtless dudes except for Theon on the torture cross). The appeals to women seem to have been the "badass" shots of Cersei and Daenerys.
• If I remember correctly, every single trailer had a slow-mo shot of horses hooves.
• Lots of shots of the Hound swinging his sword.
• Jaime started to be featured much more prominently beginning in S4. 
• One thing the HOTD trailer has that the GOT trailers didn't, in addition to larger dragons, are women speaking directly to each other. If I remember correctly, the only instance of this for GOT was a quick shot of Melisandre talking to Shireen.
• More CGI in the HOTD trailer, and I don't mean the dragons. A lot of the wide shots, like the tourney stadium, have that same glossy look that the Hobbit movies (which I loved, by the way) had. 
• I would rank the HOTD trailer above both the S1 and S8 trailers, but below the other seasons. Although hindsight has proven most of the dialogue to be quite vacuous, the trailer soundbites were a lot more chilling/memorable than "now they see you as you are" or "when I am queen I will create a new order."

This is really good!

The show's woman issues were right there in the trailers from the start, random exploitation, as well as women not speaking to each other. (GoT rarely passed the Bechdel test, and if it did, it was usually for some nefarious reason.)

Sean Bean, that was a false promise of greatness for the show - it was all downhill after he was gone. He was so very good, he always is, and it never was the same without him. He classed up what was very quickly a very unclassy joint.

[Le Cygne]

Reading about good endings to stories, I saw this:

You may have noticed there’s been much talk, not to mention outrage, over the final episodes of Game of Thrones. There’s even a petition going around, requesting that HBO rewrite and reshoot the final season.

Moral: it’s important to give your stories a great ending; it doesn’t matter so much if it’s upbeat or tragic as long as it feels just right for that particular tale.

The best advice about endings comes from Aristotle who said a good ending should be “surprising but inevitable.” In this context, inevitable means the ending shows the blossoming from seeds that have been planted by the events and characters along the way. But the ending won’t be satisfying enough if we could have written it ourselves, so it needs to be surprising, either in what happens or in how we get there.

https://blogs.gothamwriters.com/2019/05/30/surprising-but-inevitable/

Let's see: surprising ending? No, everything ended much the way it began. The characters and country were back to square one. Inevitable? No, they force fit everything. They wanted it to happen, so it did.

[sifth]

So honest question, were seasons 5, 6 and 7 received well by the general masses? I was talking to someone about this the other day and pointing out how stupid D&D were in their writing. Then I remembered that the ratings were very high those years. 

[Mystical]

9 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

The show's woman issues were right there in the trailers from the start, random exploitation, as well as women not speaking to each other.

I'd argue that the woman problem wasn't just in the trailers but also blatant from the very first Season. The patriarchy only seemed to exist for the more feminine characters (aka non physical fighters), most prominently for Sansa, Cersei and Catelyn. Sansa and Cat were especially butchered from the very beginning. But then in come the Tyrell women and Talisa who fall on the feminine side but it's like patriarchy is nonexistent where they are concerned, especially Olenna. It was also only the women who fall on the feminine side who were raped or threatened with it.

1 hour ago, sifth said:

So honest question, were seasons 5, 6 and 7 received well by the general masses? I was talking to someone about this the other day and pointing out how stupid D&D were in their writing. Then I remembered that the ratings were very high those years.

For people who valued good storytelling and character writing those Seasons were abysmal. For those who valued brain dead entertainment spectacle, those were their fave Seasons. The show was getting more popular every Season but really only had one big spectacle in it (Blackwater and maybe battle for the Wall end of S4). The show didn't get big until Hardhome, their first really major spectacle. And from then on more and more focus was given to spectacle.

[Darryk]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

So honest question, were seasons 5, 6 and 7 received well by the general masses? I was talking to someone about this the other day and pointing out how stupid D&D were in their writing. Then I remembered that the ratings were very high those years. 

Season 5 no, I remember neither mainstream nor book audiences liking it, except for the Battle of Hardhome which the internet went mad for.

Season 6 was well received mainly due to Jon Snow coming back and cause of the last two episodes which I have to say was great television. One thing the show always thrived on was spectacle.

Season 7 I think everyone agreed the "Beyond the Wall" episode was farcical.