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Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!


The Fattest Leech

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On 8/11/2022 at 8:51 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Woah, I never saw this article before. Lots of interesting tidbits here:

https://ew.com/tv/2019/11/28/game-of-thrones-series-finale-dvd-commentary/

Kit Harington explains what was going through his character’s mind: “He doesn’t know he’s going to betray her until right at the end,” he says. “In Jon’s head, it’s a number of [reasons: Dany] doesn’t factor in anyone else’s decisions and it also means [Dany] is going to kill my sisters, so it becomes [my] family vs. her.”

Glad he calls it a betrayal, which it is, but duh, DANY is his family and his sister endangered both her and Jon. It's so telling how damn confused the actors all were about what to make of the crappy script they were given.

Benioff/Weiss want you to forget Dany is his family, because they downplayed the meaning of the central reveal of the series, R + L = J. There was no deep meaning, no exploration of Jon's identity or why it even happened.

The reason Drogon torched the Iron Throne after Dany was killed isn’t specifically spelled out. But Benioff does note a potential insight into the dragon’s thoughts: “If [Dany is] not going to sit on it, no one’s going to sit on it.”

That was NOT in the script. More outside the episode babbling on their part. Here's the script, as the sentence is constructed, the throne is a dumb bystander (it makes no sense for us looking at the scene to be not the target of his wrath):

We look over Jon's shoulder as the fire sweeps toward the throne-- not the target of Drogon's wrath but a dumb bystander caught up in the conflagration.

Also, if Drogon is capable of such advanced thought, to know someone else would sit in Dany's chair, then he's capable of punishing Jon, which is something he would do anyway. The scene makes no damn sense, face it, boys.

This isn’t about a finale scene, but was revealed in the finale commentary: The scene where Jaime (Nikolaj Coster-Waldau) leaves Brienne (Gwendoline Christie) in tears included a secret line that wasn’t in the script. To help provoke Brienne’s grief, the showrunners share that Coster-Waldau said to Brienne a brutal classically Jaime-ish line that wasn’t in the script or in the show: “I don’t love you. No one loves you.”

Jaime jumped one-handed and starving into a bear pit to save her, if that's not love, it sure is deep regard. She feels unlovable, so to make that the message, then have her carry water for him in the end, is so cruel.

Benioff/Weiss with their abysmal storytelling confounded the actors, and every time they talk, it's more weight on the scale against the show. You can't hide a mess like the one they made.

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1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

episode 4 and Preston agrees with my SanSister theory:P I'm loving this!

well, unfortunately he kept stupidest part of ending : Sansa's queenship despite her brother's rule , a gift to his sister despite skin changing everyone else to support his kingship! .  then again , I suppose it was executed better than D&D's version! 

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I’ll start by saying some good things about Preston: he’s creative, has great attention for detail, and he’s a good communicator, which is why his videos are so popular. He can be a lot of fun. And the freak-out by other “fan creators” over the stupid lemon tree years ago was hilarious—it was so clearly the result of jealousy that this guy was getting more attention than them. But after watching some of his podcasts/livestreams, I was honestly stunned by how utterly condescending and full of himself he is, along with an almost disturbingly black and white view of the world. No 40-something year old man should still be that arrogant. It completely ruined his content for me, even if he still makes some fun videos from time to time.

1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

Kit Harington explains what was going through his character’s mind: “He doesn’t know he’s going to betray her until right at the end,” he says. “In Jon’s head, it’s a number of [reasons: Dany] doesn’t factor in anyone else’s decisions and it also means [Dany] is going to kill my sisters, so it becomes [my] family vs. her.”

Glad he calls it a betrayal, which it is, but duh, DANY is his family and his sister endangered both her and Jon. It's so telling how damn confused they all were about what to make of the crappy script they were given.

They want you to forget Dany is his family, because they downplayed the meaning of the biggest reveal of the series, R + L = J. There was no deep meaning, no exploration of Jon's identity or what why it even happened.

The reason Drogon torched the Iron Throne after Dany was killed isn’t specifically spelled out. But Benioff does note a potential insight into the dragon’s thoughts: “If [Dany is] not going to sit on it, no one’s going to sit on it.”

That was NOT in the script. More outside the episode babbling on their part. Here's the script, as the sentence is constructed, the throne is a dumb bystander (it makes no sense for us looking at the scene to be not the target of his wrath):

We look over Jon's shoulder as the fire sweeps toward the throne-- not the target of Drogon's wrath but a dumb bystander caught up in the conflagration.

Also, if Drogon is capable of such advanced thought, to know someone else would sit in Dany's chair, then he's capable of punishing Jon, which is something he would do anyway. The scene makes no damn sense, face it, boys.

This isn’t about a finale scene, but was revealed in the finale commentary: The scene where Jaime (Nikolaj Coster-Waldau) leaves Brienne (Gwendoline Christie) in tears included a secret line that wasn’t in the script. To help provoke Brienne’s grief, the showrunners share that Coster-Waldau said to Brienne a brutal classically Jaime-ish line that wasn’t in the script or in the show: “I don’t love you. No one loves you.”

Jaime jumped one-handed and starving into a bear pit to save her, if that's not love, it sure is deep regard. She feels unlovable, so to make that the message, then have her carry water for him in the end, is so cruel.

Benioff/Weiss with their abysmal storytelling confounded the actors, and every time they talk, it's more weight on the scale against the show. You can't hide a mess like the one they made.

I think the Jaime one was probably intended as a lie that would get Brienne to give up on him and move on with her life, which is a garbage trope on its own. S8 would have been 10x worse if they kept it in.

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53 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think the Jaime one was probably intended as a lie that would get Brienne to give up on him and move on with her life, which is a garbage trope on its own. S8 would have been 10x worse if they kept it in.

It is garbage, but I don't know that we can even go there. It was so cruel, it would have logically not had her move on, but jump off a cliff somewhere, to hear no one loves her.

Jaime also said he didn't care about the people of KL on the show, and he sure seemed to mean it. They wanted him to move from point A to point B and to do that, they had to force things.

Point B being the bizarre Cersei position, and this is what he said: "Nothing else matters. Only us." I think he meant it, I don't think we can question him, after he proved it by his actions.

(Also want to add, this is not book Jaime at all. I think a lot of the final season was their own made up mess.)

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The first 5-10 minutes of the last episode should have been its own episode.

The entire scene in the Throne Room (from the moment that Jon walked in to that dumbass fade to black) was horrifyingly ridiculous and senseless...which made it even more horrifying. If they wanted to make the dragons sentient or semi-sentient like dolphins or something, they had plenty of time to do that. Why did they wait until the very last episode to have an sentient animal for all of 30 seconds before that animal disappears to never be seen again.

That scene is complete shit.

As for the Jaime thing...I despised what they did to his character in the last season. The fact that they actually went the extra mile only to chicken out at the end...smdh

What a joke

@The Bard of Banefort I'm not too fond of Preston Jacobs either. His videos are sometimes cool but his vibe is not. 

22 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I wonder what the rationale for them not being married will be in the books? Maybe Jon will be worried about the freefolk’s reaction, since they have even stronger taboos against incest (no marrying within your clan)?

Technically, Jon and Dany won't be coming from the same clan. Not in the eyes of the Free Folk. They were born and bred thousands of miles apart and know nothing of each other. Their upbringings could not be any more different. Dany doesn't even know Jon exists and Jon has only just heard of Dany. More than that, they don't even look alike.

I know a lot of that stuff doesn't matter (blood is blood, family is family, yadda yadda yadda) but the Free Folk are simple people. For example, there is no such thing as a bastard to the Free Folk. In the same way, the Free Folk aren't going to care that much to call it incest.

And even if the Free Folk do consider Jon and Dany to be from the same clan, I don't think anyone is finding out the truth behind Jon's heritage until after Jon and Dany are married. Yes, I do think that they will already have been wedded and bedded before the truth of who Jon really is comes out. And while I do think Jon might have develop some kind of problem with it, I fully believe Dany will love and support him even more. The vast majority of people (Free Folk included) won't really care that much. They'll just throw up their hands and say "it is what it is."

After all, as the late Dame Diana Rigg would say...once the cow has been milked, there's no squirting the cream back up her udders

That's how I think it will go at least.

 

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5 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

And even if the Free Folk do consider Jon and Dany to be from the same clan, I don't think anyone is finding out the truth behind Jon's heritage until after Jon and Dany are married. Yes, I do think that they will already have been wedded and bedded before the truth of who Jon really is comes out. And while I do think Jon might have develop some kind of problem with it, I fully believe Dany will love and support him even more. The vast majority of people (Free Folk included) won't really care that much. They'll just throw up their hands and say "it is what it is.

I fully agree that no one will have any objection to Jon and Dany's marriage .. not even Sansa.* however , there are two things worthy of note. first of all , it's rather unlikely that an un-dead Jon can enter any romantic/sexual relationship unless it's with some sort of witch or something. then there's the issue of Aegon which will surely have an enormous effect on the prospect of any new long-lost nephew Dany stumbles upon. you see , if Dany and Aegon turn on each other or if Aegon turns out to be fAegon , it is almost guaranteed that Dany will not be able to trust Jon . on the other hand, if Aegon is Aegon (as far as Dany knows) and Dany loses him (for example if they join forces and he dies later or he dies before she ever reaches him) then she'd surely be more than delighted to know there is still another Targaryen in the world. 

 

*I never realized why show-Sansa never pushed for Jon's marriage to Dany after he had already bent the knee . the peaceful solution in the situation they were in with all the Northern lords pissed about Jon throwing away his crown would have been to build up a strong Stark faction in Dany's court ensuring the North's interests. which wouldn't have been exceptionally difficult considering Dany only had Jorah , Missandei and Greyworm who she regarded as family and as someone who was never amongst people she could fully trust , she would have welcomed Stark family if they treated her as one of their own. 

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4 hours ago, EggBlue said:

*I never realized why show-Sansa never pushed for Jon's marriage to Dany after he had already bent the knee . the peaceful solution in the situation they were in with all the Northern lords pissed about Jon throwing away his crown would have been to build up a strong Stark faction in Dany's court ensuring the North's interests. which wouldn't have been exceptionally difficult considering Dany only had Jorah , Missandei and Greyworm who she regarded as family and as someone who was never amongst people she could fully trust , she would have welcomed Stark family if they treated her as one of their own. 

I think Sansa would be perfectly fine with Jon marrying Dany, as long as his parentage was revealed first. While this bumps him up the line of succession for the Iron Throne, it bumps him down the line for Winterfell and the North, and with Bran not being Bran anymore, Sansa is Ned Stark's one true heir (and presumably the popular choice in a vote of lords, given Jon betrayed them by bending the knee). This would allow the North autonomy from the Crown under Sansa in both theory and actuality. Jon marrying Dany without publicizing that he isn't Ned Stark's son means that Jon and Dany's theoretical children are the heirs of Winterfell and the Iron Throne, while the Starks are cut out of succession altogether, and the Northern Lords (should they seek independence) would have had to first overthrow a Targaryen Warden of the North and initiate a local dynastic crisis before being able to focus on rebelling against the Crown, which substantially limits their chances of success by guaranteeing a multi-front civil war. 

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7 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I fully agree that no one will have any objection to Jon and Dany's marriage .. not even Sansa.* however , there are two things worthy of note. first of all , it's rather unlikely that an un-dead Jon can enter any romantic/sexual relationship unless it's with some sort of witch or something. then there's the issue of Aegon which will surely have an enormous effect on the prospect of any new long-lost nephew Dany stumbles upon. you see , if Dany and Aegon turn on each other or if Aegon turns out to be fAegon , it is almost guaranteed that Dany will not be able to trust Jon . on the other hand, if Aegon is Aegon (as far as Dany knows) and Dany loses him (for example if they join forces and he dies later or he dies before she ever reaches him) then she'd surely be more than delighted to know there is still another Targaryen in the world. 

 

*I never realized why show-Sansa never pushed for Jon's marriage to Dany after he had already bent the knee . the peaceful solution in the situation they were in with all the Northern lords pissed about Jon throwing away his crown would have been to build up a strong Stark faction in Dany's court ensuring the North's interests. which wouldn't have been exceptionally difficult considering Dany only had Jorah , Missandei and Greyworm who she regarded as family and as someone who was never amongst people she could fully trust , she would have welcomed Stark family if they treated her as one of their own. 

That requires a Sansa who is loyal to Jon and is willing to be Warden, rather than Queen.

Sansa wanted her own crown.  IMHO, that lay at the heart of her determination to put Dany underground. 

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18 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

It is garbage, but I don't know that we can even go there. It was so cruel, it would have logically not had her move on, but jump off a cliff somewhere, to hear no one loves her.

Jaime also said he didn't care about the people of KL on the show, and he sure seemed to mean it. They wanted him to move from point A to point B and to do that, they had to force things.

Point B being the bizarre Cersei position, and this is what he said: "Nothing else matters. Only us." I think he meant it, I don't think we can question him, after he proved it by his actions.

(Also want to add, this is not book Jaime at all. I think a lot of the final season was their own made up mess.)

Jaime saying he didn’t care about the inhabitants of the city simply made his backstory pointless.

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4 hours ago, SeanF said:

 

Sansa wanted her own crown.  IMHO, that lay at the heart of her determination to put Dany underground. 

which she did stupidly! I mean what did she learn from LF and her time in Kingslanding? 

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2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

which she did stupidly! I mean what did she learn from LF and her time in Kingslanding? 

Well Littlefinger was an idiot in the show too so it seems she learned a lot.

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On 8/13/2022 at 12:58 AM, EggBlue said:

I never realized why show-Sansa never pushed for Jon's marriage to Dany after he had already bent the knee .

I always assumed she didn't bother because he never listened to her anyway. Besides, it should have come down to Davos/Tyrion to get these two shackled to each other while still on Dragonstone.

 

21 hours ago, EggBlue said:

which she did stupidly!

She is alive and has a crown at the end. Which is more than you can say for Dany whose stupidity got her dead. Since when does it matter in this show or even the books whether you are smart or not when it concerns titles? If intelligence was the barometer for a crown, in the show no character ever should have had it. Maybe battle it out for the Crown of Stupidity but that's it.

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53 minutes ago, Mystical said:

She is alive and has a crown at the end. Which is more than you can say for Dany whose stupidity got her dead. Since when does it matter in this show or even the books whether you are smart or not when it concerns titles? If intelligence was the barometer for a crown, in the show no character ever should have had it. Maybe battle it out for the Crown of Stupidity but that's it.

She was particularly stupid though; antagonizing the person who just brought dragons and an army to aid you against the white walkers.

And blurting out that Bran can't have children.

And not pointing out that Jon has a better claim to the throne during the council at the end.

And Bran granting her independence in front of several factions that also want independence.

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47 minutes ago, Darryk said:

She was particularly stupid though; antagonizing the person who just brought dragons and an army to aid you against the white walkers.

And blurting out that Bran can't have children.

And not pointing out that Jon has a better claim to the throne during the council at the end.

And Bran granting her independence in front of several factions that also want independence.

Dany’s main stupidity was following Tyrion’s advice

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8 hours ago, Darryk said:

She was particularly stupid though; antagonizing the person who just brought dragons and an army to aid you against the white walkers.

And blurting out that Bran can't have children.

And not pointing out that Jon has a better claim to the throne during the council at the end.

And Bran granting her independence in front of several factions that also want independence.

1) Dany's team (including Jon) is at fault for the Wall coming down. Without their stupidity things would have been much easier (cause there is still a Wall) and the body count a lot lower. I would be hella pissed too. Nothing beats the 'beyond the wall' mission in terms of stupidity.

2) Why is it stupid to say Bran can't have children? It's the way it worked in their world.

3) Why didn't Tyrion, Arya, Sam or Bran himself point it out? There is enough stupid to go around.

4) How does this make Sansa stupid? That's firmly on the malfunctioning Branbot.

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5 minutes ago, Mystical said:

1) Dany's team (including Jon) is at fault for the Wall coming down. Without their stupidity things would have been much easier (cause there is still a Wall) and the body count a lot lower. I would be hella pissed too. Nothing beats the 'beyond the wall' mission in terms of stupidity.

2) Why is it stupid to say Bran can't have children? It's the way it worked in their world.

3) Why didn't Tyrion, Arya, Sam or Bran himself point it out? There is enough stupid to go around.

4) How does this make Sansa stupid? That's firmly on the malfunctioning Branbot.

1. That's down to dumb writing on behalf of the writers. Either way, the White Walkers have been built up as a threat for 8 seasons so they were gonna fight them at some point and having a few dragons and an army around certainly isn't something you should be ungrateful for.

2. It's stupid to blurt it out in the middle of a council.

3. They're all stupid. The show's full of stupid characters. But Sansa, so the showrunners led us to believe, was supposed to be Littlefinger's cunning apprentice and, according to Arya "the smartest person she knows".

4. I meant more that it happened "in a stupid way" in terms of the writing.

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On 8/12/2022 at 5:58 PM, EggBlue said:

I fully agree that no one will have any objection to Jon and Dany's marriage .. not even Sansa.* however , there are two things worthy of note. first of all , it's rather unlikely that an un-dead Jon can enter any romantic/sexual relationship unless it's with some sort of witch or something. then there's the issue of Aegon which will surely have an enormous effect on the prospect of any new long-lost nephew Dany stumbles upon. you see , if Dany and Aegon turn on each other or if Aegon turns out to be fAegon , it is almost guaranteed that Dany will not be able to trust Jon . on the other hand, if Aegon is Aegon (as far as Dany knows) and Dany loses him (for example if they join forces and he dies later or he dies before she ever reaches him) then she'd surely be more than delighted to know there is still another Targaryen in the world. 

 

  1. Honestly, if we are to abide by the most basic definition of the word "witch," Dany would be considered a witch. And there's nothing wrong with that. I've always seen Dany as a fusion of Queen Visenya and King Aegon V. Visenya actually was a witch and Aegon V tried his hardest to be one as well.
  2.  UnJon being able to enter any romantic or sexual relationship...the question isn't if he will able to marry and have sex (one of Dany's most infamous dragon dreams is most likely telling us that she'll be having sex with a undead man). The real question is if he will capable of love. If we look at Beric and Catelyn as examples, the answer is not yes and it's not no...the answer is it's complicated. Beric and Catelyn have become a bit monstrous post-resurrection...they have their own will and desires and are still capable of complex reasoning and emotional expression. But they are not as they were when they were alive. Personally, my theory is that Dany will be the one to fall head over heels in love with Jon while Jon is the one who views the marriage/union as a means to an end. I think the infamous third betrayal for love Dany will experience will be a self-betrayal...she betrays herself and everything she worked for out of love for a man. Which would be as poetic and epic as it would be mundane. But the thing is that Jon won't love her.
  3. Long-lost nephew. With this, the most likely and most sensible order of events (in addition to my head canon thus far) would have it so that Dany will meet and fall in love and marry Jon during the Aegon crisis before Jon's true identity becomes a) public knowledge and b) indisputable. Now after Jon's identity is revealed and Aegon turns out to be a fraud (or even real for that matter), then Dany can find it nearly impossible to trust Jon afterwards.
On 8/12/2022 at 5:58 PM, EggBlue said:

*I never realized why show-Sansa never pushed for Jon's marriage to Dany after he had already bent the knee . the peaceful solution in the situation they were in with all the Northern lords pissed about Jon throwing away his crown would have been to build up a strong Stark faction in Dany's court ensuring the North's interests. which wouldn't have been exceptionally difficult considering Dany only had Jorah , Missandei and Greyworm who she regarded as family and as someone who was never amongst people she could fully trust , she would have welcomed Stark family if they treated her as one of their own. 

It was a plot hole, sis.

A massive one too.

Littlefinger literally tells her in the last episode of season 7 that a marriage between Jon and Dany is not only inevitable but a promising stroke of genius. Granted, Littlefinger was only viewing it in terms of how Sansa and himself can continue being behind-the-scenes power-broker and master manipulator...but he was 100% correct and truthful.

Yet, in season 8, Sansa is outright hostile as if having a Stark consort to a Targaryen ruler (or even a Stark/Targaryen system of co-rulership) had no political, economic or martial benefit.

On 8/13/2022 at 1:57 AM, SeanF said:

Sansa wanted her own crown.  IMHO, that lay at the heart of her determination to put Dany underground. 

Exactly.

Like they had a perfect plot set up for them in season 7 as far as Sansa and the other more political, less magical characters were concerned...only for them to completely commit narrative suicide by ruining that rather ingenious plotline (one that writes itself) and replacing it with a stupid plotline that not only had a gaping hole in it but had no resolution.

On 8/12/2022 at 10:48 PM, Landis said:

I think Sansa would be perfectly fine with Jon marrying Dany, as long as his parentage was revealed first. While this bumps him up the line of succession for the Iron Throne, it bumps him down the line for Winterfell and the North, and with Bran not being Bran anymore, Sansa is Ned Stark's one true heir (and presumably the popular choice in a vote of lords, given Jon betrayed them by bending the knee). This would allow the North autonomy from the Crown under Sansa in both theory and actuality. Jon marrying Dany without publicizing that he isn't Ned Stark's son means that Jon and Dany's theoretical children are the heirs of Winterfell and the Iron Throne, while the Starks are cut out of succession altogether, and the Northern Lords (should they seek independence) would have had to first overthrow a Targaryen Warden of the North and initiate a local dynastic crisis before being able to focus on rebelling against the Crown, which substantially limits their chances of success by guaranteeing a multi-front civil war. 

I disagree. The specifics of Jon's parentage does not matter.

Because in the end, if Jon's false identity as Ned Stark's bastard son is never challenged and unveiled to be false, then the lords of the North would have no problem with this. You still would have a Stark king -- consort or not, a king is a king -- and a Stark-flavored court in King's Landing. Seeing as the North had always been unofficially autonomous under Targaryen rule, nothing changes. In fact, the North being unofficially autonomous with a Stark overlord in Winterfell and a Stark king in King's Landing is a enormous upgrade. Because then the lesser northern houses have a much higher chance of gaining more prestige and power. They should all have been salivating at such a prospect. 

If Jon's true identity as the trueborn son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark is revealed (which would thereby reveal Ned Stark to be three times the hero that they all thought he was), then the lords of the North would still be happy. Because the North remembers both Lyanna Stark and Ned Stark. The trueborn son of Lyanna - after being selflessly raised as a northerner by Ned Stark, mind you - would be ruling the Seven Kingdoms. Granted, Jon would be a Targaryen by name but he'd still be a Stark by blood. Like every other situation where two powerful ruling families join together in marriage, the Starks would basically become a unofficial royal house. The Starks would be the new Velaryons: rulers of their own lands and heirs to the Iron Throne should the Targaryen dynasty be extinguished. You'd still get a Stark king in King's Landing (aka Jon), a Stark overlord in Winterfell (aka Sansa)and northerners of all kinds in national positions of authority and influence.

It's honestly a win-win situation.

Which makes season 8 look even worse

 

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I’ve been told I’m too negative about HOTD so I’ll share this anecdote here in the Rant & Rave thread: I was at a big family event this weekend, and we spent a lot of time talking about TV shows. Not once did anyone bring up GOT or HOTD (granted, no one mentioned Euphoria or Marvel either, so this wasn’t exactly a comprehensive survey). I don’t think many people even know about HOTD. I never see any ads for it (and the poster they use is kind of lame—little Rhaenyra is cute and all, but the text is this dark tan color and it blends into the dragon). Has anyone seen any of the ads on TV?

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6 hours ago, Mystical said:

1) Dany's team (including Jon) is at fault for the Wall coming down. Without their stupidity things would have been much easier (cause there is still a Wall) and the body count a lot lower. I would be hella pissed too. Nothing beats the 'beyond the wall' mission in terms of stupidity.

2) Why is it stupid to say Bran can't have children? It's the way it worked in their world.

3) Why didn't Tyrion, Arya, Sam or Bran himself point it out? There is enough stupid to go around.

4) How does this make Sansa stupid? That's firmly on the malfunctioning Branbot.

The wight hunt was indeed stupid at every level (though Dany was opposed to it).  One has to assume, however, that the Others would have got around/through the Wall at some point. Otherwise, what was anyone worried about?  But no one was thinking straight in Season 7 (for plot reasons, obviously).  Jon’s priority ought to have been to destroy Cersei, first of all, so that Dany could then deploy Southern military resources against the Others.  And, a marriage alliance would have been the obvious proposal.

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