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Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, SeanF said:

  I don't really see the Dany/Joffrey parallel.  Joffrey got aroused by torturing attractive women.  I never had the impression that Dany (either in the books or show)  derived sexual gratification from torture.

The parallels are an heir with a pretty face which hides a tendency to cruelty came to Winterfell and fooled a Stark who was severely blinded by it to the point it made people :tantrum:. She's muh queen to Sansa's oft repeated my/her prince.  It was brought up that Joff was born wrong and Tywin said Cersei (and Robert) put him into an environment which made it worse. Dany was born with a deficiency in that she was both born of incest and one parent with a severe mental illness, and then she was put into a bad environment which made it worse. Joff sees the people of KL as collateral damage - his to abuse, and Dany demonstrates this also. Joff was compared to Aerys III (as Cersei is a parallel to Aerys II), but Dany is the actual child of Aerys, feared to be Aerys III as well. Joff was believed to have been put down by Sansa and Tyrion, and Dany was put down by Jon at Tyrion's urging. Tywin said to Joff that anyone who has to say they're the king is no true king. Season 8 saw Dany saying "I'm the Queen" all over the place when she clearly wasn't the one calling the shots just like Joff. 

There aren't 100% perfect parallels otherwise it would be just slapping one character onto the other. It just means that there's enough similarities that it's worth pointing out. If a single exception means there's no parallel, then ASOAIF/GOT has no character parallels whatsoever which isn't the case as it's absolutely loaded with them to both in world characters and out-of-world characters in addition to rl historical figures. 

It's been noted that show Dany has been turned into a Hitler parallel, but that certainly doesn't mean they have 100% of everything in common (impossible) and those differences don't negate the intended similarities. 

Edited by Lollygag

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26 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

The parallels are an heir with a pretty face which hides a tendency to cruelty came to Winterfell and fooled a Stark who was severely blinded by it to the point it made people :tantrum:. She's muh queen to Sansa's oft repeated my/her prince.  It was brought up that Joff was born wrong and Tywin said Cersei (and Robert) put him into an environment which made it worse. Dany was born with a deficiency in that she was both born of incest and one parent with a severe mental illness, and then she was put into a bad environment which made it worse. Joff sees the people of KL as collateral damage - his to abuse, and Dany demonstrates this also. Joff was compared to Aerys III (as Cersei is a parallel to Aerys II), but Dany is the actual child of Aerys, feared to be Aerys III as well. Joff was believed to have been put down by Sansa and Tyrion, and Dany was put down by Jon at Tyrion's urging. Tywin said to Joff that anyone who has to say they're the king is no true king. Season 8 saw Dany saying "I'm the Queen" all over the place when she clearly wasn't the one calling the shots just like Joff. 

There aren't 100% perfect parallels otherwise it would be just slapping one character onto the other. It just means that there's enough similarities that it's worth pointing out. If a single exception means there's no parallel, then ASOAIF/GOT has no character parallels whatsoever which isn't the case as it's absolutely loaded with them to both in world characters and out-of-world characters in addition to rl historical figures. 

It's been noted that show Dany has been turned into a Hitler parallel, but that certainly doesn't mean they have 100% of everything in common (impossible) and those differences don't negate the intended similarities. 

Yes, I see, thanks.

Although, Daenerys is also far more intelligent and empathetic than Joffrey.  There's a parallel between "I am the King"/"I am the Queen" but also a big difference.  Joffrey says it because privately everyone regards him as ridiculous, and he knows it. No one considers Dany ridiculous - she's terrifying.  She says it, because she's terrified that her whole world vision is built on a lie.

 

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Just now, SeanF said:

Yes, I see, thanks.

Although, Daenerys is also far more intelligent and empathetic than Joffrey.  There's a parallel between "I am the King"/"I am the Queen" but also a big difference.  Joffrey says it because privately everyone regards him as ridiculous, and he knows it. No one considers Dany ridiculous - she's terrifying.  She says it, because she's terrified that her whole world vision is built on a lie.

 

Oh, absolutely and her end being a Joff parallel makes her more tragic. That's the nice thing about parallels: they also highlight the differences which are just as important. 

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20 hours ago, SeanF said:

I do like that picture.

A good point about the way that Tyrion and Varys suddenly and inexplicably start judging her by modern military ethical standards in Season 7,

There's a very nasty implication to Dany's character arc which has just occurred to me.  Robert, Pycelle, LF, Renly, and the Wineseller were right to try and poison her and her unborn child.  Is that really the message that D & D want to leave us with?

Fair point.

Some Westerosi players with their hands on the levers of power could & did have cause to eliminate orphaned & bastard Targaryen offshoots. Others saw an opportunity to disrupt the status quo to their own advantage. Certainly I could see Littlefinger, had he lived, rubbing his hands together and going, "Yuss! Now we're really talking high stakes!" once the DRAGON wildcard was turned. Arguments were made (by Eddard, I think?) against murdering Daenerys, but he's dead now. The show demonstrated well enough how others of Ned's acts brought about his downfall, but that one was never revisited IIRC.

We saw a great deal of Daenerys from Daenerys's POV, and were thus drawn into her story & her struggles. But once Robert was gone, and the Lannisters got a stranglehold on power, Westerosi opposition to Daenerys seemed to degenerate into name-calling ("a foreign whore who doesn’t know her place") and petty bitchery about her looks. In other words, completely stupid reasons for opposing her. Had good reasons been put forward for opposing her - I mean, in addition to "for the good of the realm" - I'd be a lot more okay with that "message that D & D want to leave us with."

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

LOL  That picture really is some weird shit.  I'm still wondering if it's been altered or something. 

As far as implications for Dany's arc, one thing (of perhaps less depth) on my mind has been.........going that far with the one that did magically bring dragons back to the world?  It seems weird, to me, especially if the dragons have more to do with fighting the Others.  If they are not that pertinent to the story of the Others, I suppose I can see going such a route with 'Mad' Dany.  I could still even see a tragic end, one that maybe readers and some characters understand but not the wider Westeros world, but the Mad Tyrant end for the one that brought back such magic to the world seems off to me, the more I think about it, anyway. 

Agreed.

The writing was atrocious, and the message to the audience as each character arc was destroyed was super toxic, they don't get the basics of writing or humanity. It's so bad it's funny.

There was no point to Dany's dragons or to Jon as a Targ, they just wanted them out of the way. There was no point to anything at all, just bad writing, toxic messages, and a lot of nothing.

In season 1, Dany was down and out, Jon was at the Wall, Arya wandered off, Bran had visions, Sandra wanted a tiara, Sandor fought his brother, Jaime fucked his sister, and so on.

Why even bother with the rest of the show. There was no point to any of it. It's such an obvious fail, they just took the money and ran. Leaving the audience holding the bag.

The nice thing is how many dropped the bag and proceeded straight to mockery. The more one thinks about the show, the dumber it gets, and why give it more thought than they did.

Edited by Le Cygne

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On 6/6/2019 at 8:59 PM, Lady Fevre Dream said:

but the Mad Tyrant end for the one that brought back such magic to the world seems off to me, the more I think about it, anyway. 

Reading TWoIaF, and about Barth's Unnatural History (and its destruction by Baelor), I have the feeling the dragons are an "unholy" creation, by Ashai or Valyria sorcerers. Likely paying R'hllor and the Shadows an insane blood price. And these creations intensely displease the Others and the old gods. By name at least, the Maiden-Made-of-Light and the Lion of Night. So I was expecting the destruction of the dragon to be part of the LN resolution. Not the weapon to defeat the Others.

I also believe Daenerys was on the wrong side, since at least Astapor. Cheating Kraznys has sent a very bad message to all her enemies: that she could not be trusted in negotiation. From this point on, no slaver expected a deal with her. It was only "win or die". OK, Kraznys was a shit. But if your enemy can't trust you, he will never believe you. He will not hesitate to betray you, because he expects no less from you. Quite a "stark" opposite to someone else.

Also, she was, later (in the show at least), the only character to dispose of an obvious superior fire power. Even Tywin, at his strongest, had to compose with his allies and his just abdicated enemies. Not Daenerys. With Dragons, Unsullied, Dothrakis, and "mad vengeful women", she had the feeling she didn't have to compromise with anyone. All in all, her failure was expected.

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On 6/6/2019 at 7:59 PM, Lady Fevre Dream said:

LOL  That picture really is some weird shit.  I'm still wondering if it's been altered or something. 

Yeah 100%. What's the red stuff on her face? I only remember black soot/ash from when I watched it at the time. 

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Query: Are the showrunners liars, do they have some bizarre inability to grasp basic logical consistency, or what?

I'm not just talking about incoherence within the show's narrative; but screaming inconsistencies between what they say in interviews and what happens on the show.

E.g., after episode 3 they said it was "the end of the Dothraki". But I saw globs of Dothraki in ep. 6. Were they random people who dressed up as Dothraki for a fancy dress ball?

Didn't they say at one point that Dany wasn't her father and was one of the good Targaryens? But apparently she was the worst Targaryen ever.

Also, everyone has probably seen loads of videos about why GOT was rubbish this season; but this might be worth a look. The chap has some interesting ideas:

 

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11 minutes ago, Count Balerion said:

Query: Are the showrunners liars, do they have some bizarre inability to grasp basic logical consistency, or what?

 

I think there’s at least one more option... they simply don’t care.

They’re used to it by now, they can do no wrong (or so they thought), and people will lap up whatever nonsense they come up with and ask for more. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Ser Hedge said:

Yeah 100%. What's the red stuff on her face? I only remember black soot/ash from when I watched it at the time. 

Exactly.  It has to be altered, LOL  Speaking of which, look below. :stunned:

1 hour ago, Count Balerion said:

Query: Are the showrunners liars, do they have some bizarre inability to grasp basic logical consistency, or what?

I'm not just talking about incoherence within the show's narrative; but screaming inconsistencies between what they say in interviews and what happens on the show.

E.g., after episode 3 they said it was "the end of the Dothraki". But I saw globs of Dothraki in ep. 6. Were they random people who dressed up as Dothraki for a fancy dress ball?

Didn't they say at one point that Dany wasn't her father and was one of the good Targaryens? But apparently she was the worst Targaryen ever.

Also, everyone has probably seen loads of videos about why GOT was rubbish this season; but this might be worth a look. The chap has some interesting ideas:

 

Interesting video, thank you.  It mentioned that they did one for Episode 3, too.  I think I'll check that one out eventually. 

Edited by Lady Fevre Dream

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3 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

Exactly.  It has to be altered, LOL  Speaking of which, look below. :stunned:

Interesting video, thank you.  It mentioned that they did one for Episode 3, too.  I think I'll check that one out eventually. 

Here's one for ep. 6. Not sure about his thing about Elizabeth Warren; but otherwise pretty amusing:

 

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On 6/7/2019 at 5:01 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

also believe Daenerys was on the wrong side, since at least Astapor. Cheating Kraznys has sent a very bad message to all her enemies: that she could not be trusted in negotiation. From this point on, no slaver expected a deal with her. It was only "win or die". OK, Kraznys was a shit. But if your enemy can't trust you, he will never believe you. He will not hesitate to betray you, because he expects no less from you. Quite a "stark" opposite to someone else.

Also, she was, later (in the show at least), the only character to dispose of an obvious superior fire power. Even Tywin, at his strongest, had to compose with his allies and his just abdicated enemies. Not Daenerys. With Dragons, Unsullied, Dothrakis, and "mad vengeful women", she had the feeling she didn't have to compromise with anyone. All in all, her failure was expected.

Yeah I can appreciate this.

But to be honest, compromise for the sake of compromising is a double-edged sword without a hilt. It ended up leaving Cersei and Kevan to drown in roses and it nearly killed Daenerys. Ned's attempts to compromise and his failure to do effectively killed him and put his entire House and domain on the brink of extinction. Robb did worse than his father.

Compromise isn't the key. It's the ability to compromise effectively from positions of unwavering strength.

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59 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Compromise isn't the key. It's the ability to compromise effectively from positions of unwavering strength.

Of course, compromise can quickly become a weakness or a defeat. But position of strength or not, it needs balance so no one feel he lost everything. A complete lack of compromise will lead to feelings of unfairness, humiliation, need for revenge. At any cost because there is nothing left to live for.

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2 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Of course, compromise can quickly become a weakness or a defeat. But position of strength or not, it needs balance so no one feel he lost everything. A complete lack of compromise will lead to feelings of unfairness, humiliation, need for revenge. At any cost because there is nothing left to live for.

 

1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Yeah I can appreciate this.

But to be honest, compromise for the sake of compromising is a double-edged sword without a hilt. It ended up leaving Cersei and Kevan to drown in roses and it nearly killed Daenerys. Ned's attempts to compromise and his failure to do effectively killed him and put his entire House and domain on the brink of extinction. Robb did worse than his father.

Compromise isn't the key. It's the ability to compromise effectively from positions of unwavering strength.

“It took the better part of an hour before the impossible became possible, and another hour before they could agree on terms. The flagon of mulled wine that Satin delivered helped them settle the more nettlesome points. By the time Jon Snow signed the parchment the Braavosi drew up, both of them were half-drunk and quite unhappy. Jon thought that a good sign.”

 

<snip>

“Tormund’s grip was bone-crushing. That much had not changed about him. The beard was the same as well, though the face under that thicket of white hair had thinned considerably, and there were deep lines graven in those ruddy cheeks. “Mance should have killed you when he had the chance,” he said as he did his best to turn Jon’s hand to pulp and bone. “Gold for gruel, and boys … a cruel price. Whatever happened to that sweet lad I knew?”
They made him lord commander. “A fair bargain leaves both sides unhappy, I’ve heard it said”

Sadly, the way they wrote show Jon, he is too dumb for any of this. 

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Paraphrased life lesson from the story.

Compromise as a way to achieve balance. You don't get everything and neither does the other side. But you keep talking instead of being an unbending idiot that only leads to someone getting shanked. Usually yourself.

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23 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

A fair bargain leaves both sides unhappy, I’ve heard it said”

If both parties fought and are unhappy of the result, it means they intend to hold to their commitments. If there was nothing to agree, one or the other will betray the deal at the first opportunity. "Words are wind" GRRM oft repeats. You just get a new enemy, lost an opportunity to get a friend. Hard but fair battles win respect.

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1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

If both parties fought and are unhappy of the result, it means they intend to hold to their commitments. If there was nothing to agree, one or the other will betray the deal at the first opportunity. "Words are wind" GRRM oft repeats. You just get a new enemy, lost an opportunity to get a friend. Hard but fair battles win respect.

Speaking of winning respect, or not LOL, any sign of the Ds yet?  How long can they seem to hide? 

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I wonder how long it will take until the backlash hits GRRM?

Currently, his most famous story has a beginning, a mess of a middle and no end.

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20 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

Speaking of winning respect, or not LOL, any sign of the Ds yet?  How long can they seem to hide? 

Oh, they're so done with this...and have been for quite a while.  Don't worry, HBO will buy some Emmys, everyone will pat themselves heartily on the back, ...and we'll all move on.  In fact, that pretty much started happening immediately following the finale. 

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