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The Fattest Leech

Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

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1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

Just saw that, he's really spelling it out.

“The whole last three years have been strange since the show got ahead of the books,” he says. “Yes, I told [showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss] a number of things years ago. And some of them they did do. But at the same time, it’s different. I have very fixed ideas in my head as I’m writing The Winds of Winter and beyond that in terms of where things are going. It’s like two alternate realities existing side by side. I have to double down and do my version of it which is what I’ve been doing.”

Yeah, Martin has used the phrase “alternate universes” before. It’s pretty clear that the two stories are just completely different from each other, and thank god for that. 

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2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yeah, Martin has used the phrase “alternate universes” before. It’s pretty clear that the two stories are just completely different from each other, and thank god for that. 

I'd expect Kings Landing to burn, in the books, either at the hands of Jon Con or Dany.  But, it's been established that (a) there are caches of wildfire in the city and (b) it's largely built of wood.  So, it would be easy in a fight to set off a cache of wildfire, and for a firestorm to sweep the city, like London in 1666.  Jon Con/Dany might get the blame for a deliberate atrocity, when what actually took place was an accident.  I'd also expect it to take place before the fight against the Others.

it's hard to imagine D  & D invented Jon killing Dany at Tyrion's instigation, although I don't know what the circumstances would be.  Dany could be a self-righteous maniac who has to be put down, or the innocent victim of treachery, or simply a political rival to Jon, or anything in between.  Whatever, I'd expect it to be far more plausible than D & D's version.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yeah, Martin has used the phrase “alternate universes” before. It’s pretty clear that the two stories are just completely different from each other, and thank god for that. 

And they were clear it was their own bizarro world universe, they kept trying to outdo each other with the WTFs right up to the final season:

It wasn’t like something where five years ago one of us said, “I think this has to happen and I know this is right.” [The final season storyline was] something that gradually unfolded with neither of us wanting to plant a flag in the ground right out of the gate. Because what if you’re wrong? What if there’s a better idea out there and you planted a flag on the second- or third-best idea? So it was always more a “What if…” conversation than an “I think that…” So by the time we got to the place where we were outlining we already knew most of the big things.

https://ew.com/tv/2019/04/09/game-of-thrones-season-8-showrunners-interview/

Edited by Le Cygne

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Posted (edited)

It's like they didn't even consider that all the contradictions were still going to be there, everything the complete opposite of what was said or done before.

And all the absurdities built up over the seasons, until finally it was all absurdities. It was basically a long con job, and in the end, they took the money and ran.

Edited by Le Cygne

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

It's like they didn't even consider that all the contradictions were still going to be there, everything the complete opposite of what was said or done before.

And all the absurdities built up over the seasons, until finally it was all absurdities. It was basically a long con job, and in the end, they took the money and ran.

I can't disagree with that. 

And yet, you'd think anyone with a modicum of self-respect would want to go out with a bang.  By the end, it wasn't just book-readers who were unhappy.  There are dozens of fan fiction writers who would do a better job than D & D.

Edited by SeanF

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Like I said GRRM chooses his words very carefully. In that EW interview, he mentioned that he told D&D a number of things years ago, some of which they did do. Why state “years ago” unless he wants to make the point that he had nothing to do with the show in more recent seasons. He even uses the word “strange” to describe the last three seasons. Of course, he won’t come out and publicly criticize them because he wants to keep the bosses at HBO happy, and I suppose GRRM realizes that D&D (for all their flaws and stupidity) is the reason that his books are now part of global pop culture.

As to what D&D did do from what GRRM told them years ago, Dany becoming the antagonist is a sure one, although I don’t think she’s zigzagging above the streets of KL incinerating each street and its inhabitants one by one (that was such a stupid scene, especially since she was giving time for Cersei to escape). 

Another likely plot point that GRRM told them was Jon killing Dany. The circumstances of how that will happen will not be as those dimwits showed. And if Dany has gone genocidal, I don’t think Jon will need any manipulation or coaxing from Tyrion to act. I don’t believe we are getting “Duh she’s my Queen forever Jon” in the books. And I also think GRRM will somehow tie the Nissa Nissa prophesy to Jon killing Dany somehow. 

Perhaps the most important plot point that GRRM told D&D is Bran becoming King in the end. Bran as King is not something D&D came up with, although why they honored this plot point from GRRM while discarding or rewriting so many others, I do not know. I honestly don’t know how GRRM is going to make this work and have a believable and satisfying story. He needs Bran to do something so visibly powerful and be publicly declared the savior of Westeros for Bran to get accepted as King. Or another possible way would be for Jon to give the throne to Bran and walk away. I don’t know. 

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20 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Like I said GRRM chooses his words very carefully. In that EW interview, he mentioned that he told D&D a number of things years ago, some of which they did do. Why state “years ago” unless he wants to make the point that he had nothing to do with the show in more recent seasons. He even uses the word “strange” to describe the last three seasons. Of course, he won’t come out and publicly criticize them because he wants to keep the bosses at HBO happy, and I suppose GRRM realizes that D&D (for all their flaws and stupidity) is the reason that his books are now part of global pop culture.

As to what D&D did do from what GRRM told them years ago, Dany becoming the antagonist is a sure one, although I don’t think she’s zigzagging above the streets of KL incinerating each street and its inhabitants one by one (that was such a stupid scene, especially since she was giving time for Cersei to escape). 

Another likely plot point that GRRM told them was Jon killing Dany. The circumstances of how that will happen will not be as those dimwits showed. And if Dany has gone genocidal, I don’t think Jon will need any manipulation or coaxing from Tyrion to act. I don’t believe we are getting “Duh she’s my Queen forever Jon” in the books. And I also think GRRM will somehow tie the Nissa Nissa prophesy to Jon killing Dany somehow. 

Perhaps the most important plot point that GRRM told D&D is Bran becoming King in the end. Bran as King is not something D&D came up with, although why they honored this plot point from GRRM while discarding or rewriting so many others, I do not know. I honestly don’t know how GRRM is going to make this work and have a believable and satisfying story. He needs Bran to do something so visibly powerful and be publicly declared the savior of Westeros for Bran to get accepted as King. Or another possible way would be for Jon to give the throne to Bran and walk away. I don’t know. 

An antagonist need not be a villain.  It might well be that Jon's siblings desire independence for the North, while Dany wants to keep the Seven Kingdoms together and brands them as traitors, forcing Jon to choose between his lover and his siblings.  In that scenario, there's no need to turn Dany into a genocidal maniac.

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50 minutes ago, SeanF said:

In that scenario, there's no need to turn Dany into a genocidal maniac.

I'd say there are several scenarios where a good writer can create an interesting and even sympathetic antagonist w/o turning them into a genocidal maniac. And given Martin's talent and ability to create situations w/ no easy or obvious answers, I think we might get something like that: an antagonist, but one readers will (for the most part) be able to see where theyre (the antagonist) coming from. The problem was really that David and Dan are not good writers, and are lazy and tone deaf to boot. 

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10 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I'd say there are several scenarios where a good writer can create an interesting and even sympathetic antagonist w/o turning them into a genocidal maniac. And given Martin's talent and ability to create situations w/ no easy or obvious answers, I think we might get something like that: an antagonist, but one readers will (for the most part) be able to see where theyre (the antagonist) coming from. The problem was really that David and Dan are not good writers, and are lazy and tone deaf to boot. 

The Show certainly established the Northerners' desire for independence.  But, they never had Daenerys explain her point of view adequately:-

In a feudal society, a Queen gives protection to her vassal, and the vassal performs homage to the Queen in return.   From Dany's point of view, she's fulfilling her obligations as Queen to her vassal, by marching North to fight the Dead, and she's entitled to homage in return.  Sansa, OTOH, sees the relationship between them as a military alliance against the Dead and Cersei, between equals.  That's a fundamental difference in outlook, which need not require either of them to be the villain.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, SeanF said:

An antagonist need not be a villain.  It might well be that Jon's siblings desire independence for the North, while Dany wants to keep the Seven Kingdoms together and brands them as traitors, forcing Jon to choose between his lover and his siblings.  In that scenario, there's no need to turn Dany into a genocidal maniac.

I didn’t state that the antagonist should be a villain. Neither do I know if Dany will go genocidal or be perceived as such by Westeros. My point was that if she does, BookJon will need no manipulation or prodding from Tyrion’s part to stop Dany, even if that means killing her.

As to the remaining Starks wanting independence for the North, that I think is a show only thing. D&D had to create conflict between Dany and the Starks and resorted to this poorly conceived plot. I don’t think in the books, if Dany saves the North and Westeros from a WW attack, the remaining Starks are suddenly going to ask for independence. That would put the Starks in a very poor light. There has to be another reason. Dany disputing Jon’s stronger claim could be one possible reason for the Starks to dislike her. 

If the Starks are to triumph in the end, they can’t end up looking conniving, ungrateful, and hypocritical. We need to feel they earned their dues and kept their scruples. In the show, the Starks’ triumph is empty and I even disliked the three remaining Starks, although BookArya is one my favorite characters, and I like Bran quite a bit. So no, I don’t think GRRM is going to show the Starks ganging up against Dany just for an independent North, and especially if she sacrificed so much to save the realm. 

Edited by teej6

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, teej6 said:

I honestly don’t know how GRRM is going to make this work and have a believable and satisfying story. He needs Bran to do something so visibly powerful and be publicly declared the savior of Westeros for Bran to get accepted as King. 

I certainly hope so because otherwise all he did barely deserves a fatherly “roll your eyes at me again and I’ll clout you on the ear so hard they’ll roll back into your head for good” as Dunk would put it. 

Edited by hewman

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2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The Show certainly established the Northerners' desire for independence.  But, they never had Daenerys explain her point of view adequately:-

In a feudal society, a Queen gives protection to her vassal, and the vassal performs homage to the Queen in return.   From Dany's point of view, she's fulfilling her obligations as Queen to her vassal, by marching North to fight the Dead, and she's entitled to homage in return.  Sansa, OTOH, sees the relationship between them as a military alliance against the Dead and Cersei, between equals.  That's a fundamental difference in outlook, which need not require either of them to be the villain.

The Northerns desire for independence stemmed from the fact that the Lannister King killed their Lord and they didn’t want to bend the knee to the Lannister. The North’s desire for independence after that is non-existent until Jon is declared King. Even then, there’s no indication that the North or Jon would not be amiable to being part of Westeros if they had the right King/Queen. Sansa’s sudden desire for an independent North is D&D’s way of showing she’s empowered and her last stance on wanting independence for the North when a son of Ned is proclaimed the King of Westeros is downright ridiculous and laughable.

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And they got'em. All the nominations they wanted. I couldn't find a comprehensive list of it outside of wikipedia, so here you go.

D&D got nominated for directing & writing The Iron Throne :ack: and all the actors got nominated whether they did anything or not. Lena Heady staring out a balcony - nominated; Kit Harrington having three lines all season - nominated; Emilia Clarke showing a really angry face one time - nominated!!!

 

 

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52 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

And they got'em. All the nominations they wanted. I couldn't find a comprehensive list of it outside of wikipedia, so here you go.

D&D got nominated for directing & writing The Iron Throne :ack: and all the actors got nominated whether they did anything or not. Lena Heady staring out a balcony - nominated; Kit Harrington having three lines all season - nominated; Emilia Clarke showing a really angry face one time - nominated!!!

 

 

And they’ll probably end up winning also :ack: 

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Pretty farcical, some of the nominations they got. I guess they feel they need to nominate it for everything because it was the last season?

I'm happy for the actors but they really didn't have to do much to earn those, did they? Only ones I feel are deserved for season 8 are Emelia Clarke and Peter Dinklage. Nikolai Coster-Waldeau didn't do much in season 8 but certainly should have got for previous seasons, so maybe it's a "sorry for not nominating you earlier" emmy.

 

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8 hours ago, teej6 said:

Sansa’s sudden desire for an independent North is D&D’s way of showing she’s empowered and her last stance on wanting independence for the North when a son of Ned is proclaimed the King of Westeros is downright ridiculous and laughable.

And if Sansa had relented on independence because a 'Stark' is on the IT, people would have been complaining about her character even more since apparently it was her front for not accepting Dany. As crappy as this story was, I prefer that she stuck to her guns in regards to independence, no matter who is on the IT. Because this way there is no doubt that it had nothing to do with Dany personally. It was about independence, period.

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1 hour ago, Mystical said:

And if Sansa had relented on independence because a 'Stark' is on the IT, people would have been complaining about her character even more since apparently it was her front for not accepting Dany. As crappy as this story was, I prefer that she stuck to her guns in regards to independence, no matter who is on the IT. Because this way there is no doubt that it had nothing to do with Dany personally. It was about independence, period.

Her hostility to Dany was personal as well as political.  In fairness, Dany disliked her equally.

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17 hours ago, Mystical said:

And if Sansa had relented on independence because a 'Stark' is on the IT, people would have been complaining about her character even more since apparently it was her front for not accepting Dany. As crappy as this story was, I prefer that she stuck to her guns in regards to independence, no matter who is on the IT. Because this way there is no doubt that it had nothing to do with Dany personally. It was about independence, period.

By "stuck to your guns," are you referring to anything prior to Season 8? Because I don't recall Sansa ever mentioning "Northern independence" until the point the writers could use it as a wedge issue between the Starks and Daenerys. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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