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Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Link to Martin’s recent interview with the Guardian: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/books/2019/aug/18/george-rr-martin-interview-game-of-thrones-at-own-pace-now

Hmm... some of his statements are very interesting to say the least. There’s a sense of nostalgia and melancholy for the good old days in him.

 

Game of Thrones finishing means he can work at his own pace now? Whose pace was he working at before? :P

Edited by Darryk

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, teej6 said:

Link to Martin’s recent interview with the Guardian: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/books/2019/aug/18/george-rr-martin-interview-game-of-thrones-at-own-pace-now

Hmm... some of his statements are very interesting to say the least. There’s a sense of nostalgia and melancholy for the good old days in him.

ETA: He singled out St. Tyrion being different from his Tyrion.  

"If you’re so distanced by it that a character dies and you don’t care, then to an extent the author has failed.” That's what happened with the show.

Let's see, did we get any variation on his usual canned responses? At least there was no Scarlett this time. Instead of getting him to be clear, the interviewers spin, and then the fans do.

Garden Party he's used before. The thing is, it's fine to play the songs the audience wants to hear at a concert for the audience. If the singer wants only to please himself, sing in the shower.

A book series is not a personal journal for the author's eyes only, it's supposed to be entertaining to the readers who buy the books. And pleasing yourself AND the readers seems like a worthy goal.

Anyway, there's one thing new, a new way of saying the books are different: "they’re not the same thing, although they are very closely related to each other" - still vague, but "not the same thing" sounds good, anyway.

Edited by Le Cygne

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

"If you’re so distanced by it that a character dies and you don’t care, then to an extent the author has failed.” That's what happened with the show.

Let's see, did we get any variation on his usual canned responses? At least there was no Scarlett this time. Instead of getting him to be clear, the interviewers spin, and then the fans do.

Garden Party he's used before. The thing is, it's fine to play the songs the audience wants to hear at a concert for the audience. If the singer wants only to please himself, sing in the shower.

A book series is not a personal journal for the author's eyes only, it's supposed to be entertaining to the readers who buy the books. And pleasing yourself AND the readers seems like a worthy goal.

Anyway, there's one thing new, a new way of saying the books are different: "they’re not the same thing, although they are very closely related to each other" - still vague, but not the same thing sounds good, anyway.

Martin, at some point, began justifying to himself that his characters are different from the ones on the show (lol, yeah he didn’t bother to use his Scarlett analogy this time), and therefore what D&D shows won’t matter in the end. However, I don’t know how well that translates to the general audience and the wider readership. D&D’s characters have become canon to so many. Nevertheless, him mentioning Peter Dinklage’s Tyrion being different from his, gives me some hope. But I agree with you that his statement about pleasing himself and not the wider readership is not very promising, at least not if he wants his books to stand the test of time and gain several generations of readership like LOTR has.

IIRC, in the interview, he also mentioned something about the theories people have about the show’s ending — some of which are correct and some of which are not. Again, I agree, nothing substantial from him, but if I were to be optimistic, I would say that it may imply that there’s some tidbits from the show we can take as canon, the rest is D&D’s version. This is me trying to make some sense of that monstrosity and hoping that Martin finishes the books and when he does, I’ll have a smile on my face.

Martin has gotten so very comfortable with his arrangement with HBO that he won’t do or say anything to jeopardize that relationship. However, unless and until Martin has the courage to call a spade a spade or manages to finish the books, we are left with speculating about his vague and cryptic statements. 

Edited by teej6

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, teej6 said:

Martin, at some point, began justifying to himself that his characters are different from the ones on the show (lol, yeah he didn’t bother to use his Scarlett analogy this time), and therefore what D&D shows won’t matter in the end. However, I don’t know how well that translates to the general audience and the wider readership. D&D’s characters have become canon to so many. Nevertheless, him mentioning Peter Dinklage’s Tyrion being different from his, gives me some hope. But I agree with you that his statement about pleasing himself and not the wider readership is not very promising, at least not if he wants his books to stand the test of time and gain several generations of readership like LOTR has.

IIRC, in the interview, he also mentioned something about the theories people have about the show’s ending — some of which are correct and some of which are not. Again, I agree, nothing substantial from him, but if I were to be optimistic, I would say that it may imply that there’s some tidbits from the show we can take as canon, the rest is D&D’s version. This is me trying to make some sense of that monstrosity and hoping that Martin finishes the books and when he does, I’ll have a smile on my face.

Martin has gotten so very comfortable with his arrangement with HBO that he won’t do or say anything to jeopardize that relationship. However, unless and until Martin has the courage to call a spade a spade or manages to finish the books, we are left with speculating about his vague and cryptic statements. 

He's always said some variation of this about the books:

"So I took myself out of all that and let fans have their theories, some of which are right and some of which are wrong. They’ll find out which when I finish."

I think he's talking in terms of the books here, since he's said this over and over again. So maybe that he's still saying it means the show is different, too.

Edited by Le Cygne

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1 hour ago, teej6 said:

But I agree with you that his statement about pleasing himself and not the wider readership is not very promising, at least not if he wants his books to stand the test of time and gain several generations of readership like LOTR has.

I Don t know if that statement is really important... 

It really depends on what expectations he is thinking about... It is obvious he can t make all readers 100% happy... 

However he also shouldn t do stupid shit that almost nobody likes just because he likes it.... The difference between garbage and art is very thin and is basically how people feel about something. If 90% of his readers hate the ending of the story then it becomes garbage... 

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Another thing, if he was this vague and cryptic with Benioff and Weiss, as bad as they are at just basic things like maturely understanding and presenting humankind in a responsible way...

He'd really have had to spell things out just for them to grasp the basics of the story, so they just didn't even bother, apart from a couple of AWESOME! things they misunderstood and destroyed.

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Posted (edited)

I watched the Lindsay Ellis videos again, and they are very good, one thing that stood out was Benioff saying in the outside the episode, well, look at Dany's reaction to the death of Viserys, like that was a bad thing.

A rare scene where they didn't destroy the symbolism, only because they didn't see it. They truly left nothing, they actually went on a search and destroy mission, to crap on every good thing they might have missed.

(Anyway, there are a ton of such moments, it was just funny that they went there, and actually thought anyone would buy it. The last outside the episode must have been a real doozy. No wonder someone pulled it.)

Edited by Le Cygne

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3 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

I watched the Lindsay Ellis videos again, and they are very good, one thing that stood out was Benioff saying in the outside the episode, well, look at Dany's reaction to the death of Viserys, like that was a bad thing.

A rare scene where they didn't destroy the symbolism, only because they didn't see it. They truly left nothing, they actually went on a search and destroy mission, to crap on every good thing they might have missed.

(Anyway, there are a ton of such moments, it was just funny that they went there, and actually thought anyone would buy it. The last outside the episode must have been a real doozy. No wonder someone pulled it.)

There is something a little odd about Dany's reaction.  Many people would be delighted that the person who had just threatened to kill them, after years of abuse, had been killed, brother or not.

But, I took her reaction to be that of someone in a state of complete shock, not someone who had been plotting to get rid of her brother.  Benioff is lying to the audience.

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8 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Another thing, if he was this vague and cryptic with Benioff and Weiss, as bad as they are at just basic things like maturely understanding and presenting humankind in a responsible way...

He'd really have had to spell things out just for them to grasp the basics of the story, so they just didn't even bother, apart from a couple of AWESOME! things they misunderstood and destroyed.

I think he'd have to write the Ladybird guide to his stories, for them to understand them.

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9 hours ago, SeanF said:

There is something a little odd about Dany's reaction.  Many people would be delighted that the person who had just threatened to kill them, after years of abuse, had been killed, brother or not.

Even if Dany had a smile on her face (small or big one), they would have still used that to point out that 'the signs were always there'. Because look audience, she smiled at the murder of her brother.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, SeanF said:

There is something a little odd about Dany's reaction.  Many people would be delighted that the person who had just threatened to kill them, after years of abuse, had been killed, brother or not.

But, I took her reaction to be that of someone in a state of complete shock, not someone who had been plotting to get rid of her brother.  Benioff is lying to the audience.

She reacted just fine, and by their own reasoning, more than fine. They like to change such reasoning to suit their scribbled cocktail napkin "scripts" as we know.

They made their Sandra monster choose to marry a Bolton, and then feed him to the dogs (her trademark Benioff/Weiss/Cogman "rape empowerment" arc).

Dany was forced to marry Drogo, by Viserys, who horribly threatened and assaulted her from birth, and she doesn't kill Viserys, Drogo does.

They were as proud as a two year old of his poop of Sandra's smirk when killing Ramsay. They couldn't stop talking about it for their misogyny trophy slash Emmy.

But somehow Dany's relief that her brother is not going to sell her to 40,000 rapists and cut out her fetus (threats he made on the show, too) after she warned him to stop... BAD!

Viserys: "I would let his whole tribe f*ck you, all 40,000 men and their horses too, if that’s what it took."

Woefully inconsistent. And nasty. It's so hard to even remember their nastiness toward women. And they got a huge new deal and will get more awards. Whatever. 

Edited by Le Cygne

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9 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

She reacted just fine, and by their own reasoning, more than fine. They like to change such reasoning to suit their scribbled cocktail napkin "scripts" as we know.

They made their Sandra monster choose to marry a Bolton, and then feed him to the dogs (her trademark Benioff/Weiss/Cogman "rape empowerment" arc).

Dany was forced to marry Drogo, by Viserys, who horribly threatened and assaulted her from birth, and she doesn't kill Viserys, Drogo does.

They were as proud as a two year old of his poop of Sandra's smirk when killing Ramsay. They couldn't stop talking about it for their misogyny trophy slash Emmy.

But somehow Dany's relief that her brother is not going to sell her to 40,000 rapists and cut out her fetus (threats he made on the show, too) after she warned him to stop... BAD!

"I would let his whole tribe f*ck you, all 40,000 men and their horses too, if that’s what it took."

Woefully inconsistent. And nasty. It's so hard to even remember their nastiness toward women. And they got a huge new deal and will get more awards. Whatever.

I do wonder what is the socially correct response when someone threatens to cut your child out of your stomach.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, SeanF said:

I do wonder what is the socially correct response when someone threatens to cut your child out of your stomach.

Indeed. They are so ridiculous.

They are so nasty. Their trademark "rape empowerment" arcs are the worst. And female sexuality is punished.

Sandra is passed from one man she doesn't want to another, and in the end, they make her thank them, and never let her choose someone she desires (a big part of her story with Sandor in the books).

And of course, they screwed over Arya, too. Being part of a pack is where Arya lives in the books. So they made her use Gendry (one of her pack) as a boy toy, then toss him aside to be no one forever.

Dany gets punished for choosing someone she desires (which they didn't really show), then when he doesn't do her, she goes bonkers, and then when he tricks her into thinking he will, he kills her.

Osha did her obligatory strip for a man on camera stint (another trademark of theirs), then they used it against her, having her die on Ramsay Bolton, wordlessly. They didn't even let her speak.

And much more. They are the worst.

Oh how could I forget Brienne, who honors the man who used her and tossed her aside, they make her write his page in the white book instead of starting her own.

Edited by Le Cygne

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3 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Indeed. They are so ridiculous.

They are so nasty. Their trademark "rape empowerment" arcs are the worst. And female sexuality is punished.

Sandra is passed from one man she doesn't want to another, and in the end, they make her thank them, and never let her choose someone she desires (a big part of her story with Sandor in the books).

And of course, they screwed over Arya, too. Being part of a pack is where Arya lives in the books. So they made her use Gendry (one of her pack) as a boy toy, then toss him aside to be no one forever.

Dany gets punished for choosing someone she desires (which they didn't really show), then when he doesn't do her, she goes bonkers, and then when he tricks her into thinking he will, he kills her.

Osha did her obligatory strip for a man on camera stint (another trademark of theirs), then they used it against her, having her die on Ramsay Bolton, wordlessly. They didn't even let her speak.

And much more. They are the worst.

Oh how could I forget Brienne, who honors the man who used her and tossed her aside, they make her write his page in the white book instead of starting her own.

And this is only the beginning. The list is still missing Ros, Shae and Catelyn. There are probably more. Lets not forget the Craster's Keep rape fest either. And Lyanna Mormont is the opposite but in a bad way as she is the biggest misogynist (she reminds me of book Cersei).

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Posted (edited)

Oh yeah, there are so many more!

Ros was just another body to exploit (like the Craster's Keep women). Littlefinger was never held accountable for all the many horrors he inflicted upon women this way. Exploited women as scenery.

They made Catelyn say she was "the worst woman who ever lived" for being mean to Jon Snow. Also she was upstaged at the red wedding because they wanted Talisa's fetus stabbed.

Shae was the kidnapped prostitute who they made bizarrely actually fall in lurve with the dwarf who kidnapped her and didn't pay her. St. Tyrion never paid the slightest price for murdering her, hell, that's all he could do, she was such a ninja and all.

(Also they added attempted rape as foreplay for Gilly... they even added it for their beloved Cersei. And of course, Dany's wedding night, they totally missed why the author made that consensual in the books.)

Edited by Le Cygne

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4 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Shae was the kidnapped prostitute who they made bizarrely actually fall in lurve with the dwarf who kidnapped her and didn't pay her. St. Tyrion never paid the slightest price for murdering her, hell, that's all he could do, she was such a ninja and all.

 

Shae betraying Tyrion in the show doesn't actually make sense.

In season 3 finale when Tyrion tries to send She away by making Varys say he doesn't love him etc, Shae sees through his plans and stays because they have true and epic love.

In season 4 when Tyrion does the same thing, Shae now does believe him and is hurt by this.

The explanation here is obviously the D men creating more shock value for the viewers - She loved Tyrion, but now betrayed him!?! OMG 10/10 you never can guess what happens next in this show!

It's one of those things that make sense creatively, so they had to do it.

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On 8/16/2019 at 1:17 PM, divica said:

He has always gloried in it's success and the Emmys, that is nothing new.

Also, reminder, that season 8 scored record number of Emmy nominations and it's likely gonna win a record number of them. Why is it that the show started winning best drama emmys from season 5 onwards, exactly the time when the only awards it should have gotten are for best CGI?

The world hates ASOIAF fans in every aspect of life. 

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, miyuki said:

Shae betraying Tyrion in the show doesn't actually make sense.

In season 3 finale when Tyrion tries to send She away by making Varys say he doesn't love him etc, Shae sees through his plans and stays because they have true and epic love.

In season 4 when Tyrion does the same thing, Shae now does believe him and is hurt by this.

The explanation here is obviously the D men creating more shock value for the viewers - She loved Tyrion, but now betrayed him!?! OMG 10/10 you never can guess what happens next in this show!

It's one of those things that make sense creatively, so they had to do it.

True.

And they made Shae jealous of Sandra. She begged Tyrion not to marry her. He said he had enough gold for a ship in his hands. She said let's go away. He could have saved both women. Instead, he said "No, I'm a Lannister."

And as Lindsay Ellis mentioned, they made Sandra hate Dany because she's pretty. I guess we are to presume that's why she hated Cersei, too. After Sandra nearly killed Arya the season before, they were scrambling for the next catfight.

Edited by Le Cygne

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