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The Fattest Leech

Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

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GRRM in an article from season 4:

With Shae, it’s a much more deliberate and in some ways a crueler thing. It’s not the action of a second, because he’s strangling her slowly and she’s fighting, trying to get free. He could let go at any time. But his anger and his sense of betrayal is so strong that he doesn’t stop until it’s done and that’s probably the blackest deed that he’s ever done. It’s the great crime of his soul along with what he did with his first wife by abandoning her after the little demonstration Lord Tywin put on. Now by the standards of Westeros, that’s hardly a crime at all — “So a lord killed a whore, big deal.” He’s not likely to be punished for that any more than any other lords and knights who treat lowborn women and prostitutes and tavern wenches with contempt and use them and discard them. It’s nothing to the world, but it’s again something that’s going to haunt him, while the act of killing his father is something of enormous consequence that would be forever beyond the pale, for no man is as cursed as a kinslayer.

https://ew.com/article/2014/06/16/game-of-thrones-finale-martin/

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What still gets me is that Arya could have killed Dany and saved Jon from the both the emotional burden and kinslayer/queenslayer burden if she had done it herself at little or no personal risk. But she just says "I know a killer when I see one" and skips away leaving it all to Jon. W.T.F.

D&D completely misunderstood Arya's arc. Her lesson to learn is that revenge killing and living your life always looking backwards is bad. It eats your soul (becoming no one) and ultimately changes nothing. But D&D somehow interpreted this as killing someone to save the lives of hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of people including those you love (something you can change for the better) is always bad too. :bang:

 

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11 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

"No man is so accursed as the kinslayer, in the eyes of gods and men." Something means something very important in a culture, and is repeated so often, is not done so lightly.

Theon: "I have done terrible things … betrayed my own, turned my cloak, ordered the death of men who trusted me … but I am no kinslayer." It's the worst of the worst.

It's the Mark of Cain, the original murderer, and the original kinslayer.  Most cultures have their own version of the story of Cain and Abel,  

It's going to be a huge problem for Daenerys, I think, that when she comes to Westeros, many people will believe that she connived in the murder of her brother, and many people will also believe that fAegon is her nephew. 

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27 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It's the Mark of Cain, the original murderer, and the original kinslayer.  Most cultures have their own version of the story of Cain and Abel,  

It's going to be a huge problem for Daenerys, I think, that when she comes to Westeros, many people will believe that she connived in the murder of her brother, and many people will also believe that fAegon is her nephew. 

Yeah, throughout time in our own world, and explicitly in Westeros, you just don't kill your brother or aunt or whatever like that. And if you do, you know you are damned. So people don't do it.

So for Tyrion to kill his father, that's as GRRM said, beyond the pale, and in story terms, there have to be consequences. He's set it up. Show is honey badger, it don't care.

As for the death of Viserys, everyone knows he threatened Dany. That was Benioff and Weiss grasping at straws to justify themselves, they do that all the time in the outside the episodes.

Edited by Le Cygne

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10 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Yeah, throughout time in our own world, and explicitly in Westeros, you just don't kill your brother or aunt or whatever like that. And if you do, you know you are damned. So people don't do it.

So for Tyrion to kill his father, that's as GRRM said, beyond the pale, and in story terms, there have to be consequences. He's set it up. Show is honey badger, it don't care.

As for the death of Viserys, everyone knows he threatened Dany. That was Benioff and Weiss grasping at straws to justify themselves, they do that all the time in the outside the episodes.

We know she's innocent, but Arianne thinks she's guilty, and people love to believe the worst.

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22 minutes ago, SeanF said:

We know she's innocent, but Arianne thinks she's guilty, and people love to believe the worst.

Yes. I'm talking about the kinslaying curse, and the story consequences of actually doing so. The gods know the truth. Jorah does, too. Viserys is the true potential kinslayer in that case.

I agree that could be a story point, notably with fAegon, but he's got an uphill battle convincing everyone he's not an impostor, and at some point it will become known that he is.

Edited by Le Cygne

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Since this thread is about the "behind the scenes" stuff, I wanted to share this here.

So, Dave and Dan spoke at a writers festival recently (today depending on when you are reading this). A fan on Twitter live tweeted the talk with the showrunners.

Gems. Absolute gems in this discussion. One of my faves right here:

  • Dan wanted to remove as many fantasy elements as possible bc “we didn’t just want to appeal to that type of fan.” They wanted to expand the fan base to people beyond the fantasy fan base to “mothers, NFL players”...

So, so many interesting tidbits here, so I am giving you a link to check them out for yourselves... thread link here.

A few more good ones:

  • The moderator is asking them about their comments acknowledging they didn’t understand the characters, and the extra minutes helped them understand the characters better.
  • Dan is saying that he let the actors redefined the roles, esp Maisie and they began writing for the actors, it is like the actor moved into the “house” and redecorated. He said he learned about the characters from the actors.

What are some of your faves from this talk?

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19 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

What are some of your faves from this talk?

Thank you for sharing!

 

Beyond what you mentioned, I rather took to the following quotes:

"We don’t know why [George R. R. Martin] trusted us with his life’s work." ~ David Benioff

"[We wrote all the episodes by ourselves] because we didn't know better."

"We really did not [listen to feedback]." ~ D.B. Weiss

"No. We didn’t [attempt to boil the elements of the book down]. The scope was too big. It was about the scenes we were trying to depict and the show was about power."

:ack:

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3 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Thank you for sharing!

 

Beyond what you mentioned, I rather took to the following quotes:

"We don’t know why [George R. R. Martin] trusted us with his life’s work." ~ David Benioff

"[We wrote all the episodes by ourselves] because we didn't know better."

"We really did not [listen to feedback]." ~ D.B. Weiss

"No. We didn’t [attempt to boil the elements of the book down]. The scope was too big. It was about the scenes we were trying to depict and the show was about power."

:ack:

We don't know why he trusted them either.

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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

We don't know why he trusted them either.

Perhaps writing Varys has afforded him patience and insight into social engineering, to the extent that he was able to recognize they would somehow initially be able to adapt his works into a show that eventually would become a cultural phenomenon, which would gradually be ruined to the point that even the most superficial show-exclusive fans would desperately seek an alternative journey and ending, to the ultimate goal of multiplying his book sales manifold. :read:

Edited by Many-Faced Votary

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8 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Since this thread is about the "behind the scenes" stuff, I wanted to share this here.

So, Dave and Dan spoke at a writers festival recently (today depending on when you are reading this). A fan on Twitter live tweeted the talk with the showrunners.

Gems. Absolute gems in this discussion. One of my faves right here:

  • Dan wanted to remove as many fantasy elements as possible bc “we didn’t just want to appeal to that type of fan.” They wanted to expand the fan base to people beyond the fantasy fan base to “mothers, NFL players”...

So, so many interesting tidbits here, so I am giving you a link to check them out for yourselves... thread link here.

A few more good ones:

  • The moderator is asking them about their comments acknowledging they didn’t understand the characters, and the extra minutes helped them understand the characters better.
  • Dan is saying that he let the actors redefined the roles, esp Maisie and they began writing for the actors, it is like the actor moved into the “house” and redecorated. He said he learned about the characters from the actors.

What are some of your faves from this talk?

Awesome, just absolutely brilliant! :lol:

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10 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Since this thread is about the "behind the scenes" stuff, I wanted to share this here.

So, Dave and Dan spoke at a writers festival recently (today depending on when you are reading this). A fan on Twitter live tweeted the talk with the showrunners.

Gems. Absolute gems in this discussion. One of my faves right here:

  • Dan wanted to remove as many fantasy elements as possible bc “we didn’t just want to appeal to that type of fan.” They wanted to expand the fan base to people beyond the fantasy fan base to “mothers, NFL players”...

So, so many interesting tidbits here, so I am giving you a link to check them out for yourselves... thread link here.

A few more good ones:

  • The moderator is asking them about their comments acknowledging they didn’t understand the characters, and the extra minutes helped them understand the characters better.
  • Dan is saying that he let the actors redefined the roles, esp Maisie and they began writing for the actors, it is like the actor moved into the “house” and redecorated. He said he learned about the characters from the actors.

What are some of your faves from this talk?

Guess that explains why Bran, the Others, the direwolves and the prophecies got shafted. 

"No. We didn’t [attempt to boil the elements of the book down]. The scope was too big. It was about the scenes we were trying to depict and the show was about power."

So they essentially just worked on a scene-by-scene basis, without ever trying to connect it together as a whole? That sounds about right. Much of it certainly felt disconnected. 

Also, maybe it's just me, but based on their comments in interviews, the showrunners just seem to think of actors as being line-readers. They don't seem to see a process in building, empathising and understanding the character. Dilane went around practically begging for someone to explain Stannis' history to him, and he was told, “Oh, he was Robert's brother. He won some battles, it's not important!” I mean, what?

Edited by Ser Drewy

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4 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Perhaps writing Varys has afforded him patience and insight into social engineering, to the extent that he was able to recognize they would somehow initially be able to adapt his works into a show that eventually would become a cultural phenomenon, which would gradually be ruined to the point that even the most superficial show-exclusive fans would desperately seek an alternative journey and ending, to the ultimate goal of multiplying his book sales manifold. :read:

I don t know how the series will affect his book sales.

With the publicity that the series and books will have similar endings a lot of people lost interest in the books either because they didn t like where the story went or because they don t want to continue involved with a story that likely won t get finished.

On the other hand there are people that turned to the books in the hope of a better story.

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Benioff & Weiss just did a very bizarre panel at Austin Film Festival, bluntly admitting how unqualified they were, and unapologetically flippant when directly asked about the lack of women or racial diversity in the writers' room

Someone who was there live-tweeted the whole thing to the rest of the anti-D&D online community, and we were really picking it apart last night (I'm in some of the replies asking the reporter for clarification):

Much to our surprise, the news media is actually starting to report on it, such as in this nice article from The Mary Sue. 

https://www.themarysue.com/game-of-thrones-showrunners-austin-film-festival/

I like their assessment:  Benioff tries to be charming by being self-deprecating, but all this does is backfire, by highlighting just how incompetent and unqualified he actually was - many starting to point out "the white male son of a former Goldman Sachs CEO keeps failing upwards despite all these flaws, getting second chances a female or black writer never would".  

They also bluntly and openly admit that they rewrote the characters and storyline to show off the actors, to the point that Maisie WAS Arya, and they'd rewrite Arya to be Maisie, etc.  Or as I've been saying, quoting their Season 5 DVD commentary, "We Reconceived the Roles To Make Them Worthy of the Actors' Talents".  

I really hope Westeros.org itself reports on it as well @Ran

Video of the event may be released in coming days.  

 

Edited by The Dragon Demands

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Well, at least they're honest.  They didn't bother with the plot, the characters, or the main themes of the books.

I wouldn't have been surprised if they'd said they'd just read summaries of the books on Wikipedia.

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Wow. The level of 'eff your story' is just.. mindblowing.

But... we actually knew that already? Wtf was that with Cersei's non presence after the apoteotic stupidity of blowing up the Sept like that?

Or Bran's disappearing act?

Barristan getting shanked like that?

Or even way before when people around here and in other fan discussions kept scratching their heads? Sansa did what? Where did that Volantene babe sprout from? Catelyn Tully is dead as a door nail and finito?

Like @SeanF said it? At least they have the honesty, or it is simply carelessness?, to come out and say it to everyone's faces.

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The level of arrogance and nonchalance with which they regard their own dismal failure (and complete lack of desire) to do justice to the richness of the source material is stupefying. 

 

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21 minutes ago, Darryk said:

"I wanted to downplay the fantasy elements"

Ikr? What can I say other than, maybe they should have decided to go butcher something else and not a complex fantasy series w/ complex characters and themes. 

 

21 minutes ago, Darryk said:

from the guy whose primary objective was to get a zombie polar bear in the show.

Spot on! :lol:

What’s that about a baby on an ice block in series 1? I have no recollection of anything like that... 

 

 

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On 10/26/2019 at 10:37 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Since this thread is about the "behind the scenes" stuff, I wanted to share this here.

So, Dave and Dan spoke at a writers festival recently (today depending on when you are reading this). A fan on Twitter live tweeted the talk with the showrunners.

Gems. Absolute gems in this discussion. One of my faves right here:

  • Dan wanted to remove as many fantasy elements as possible bc “we didn’t just want to appeal to that type of fan.” They wanted to expand the fan base to people beyond the fantasy fan base to “mothers, NFL players”...

So, so many interesting tidbits here, so I am giving you a link to check them out for yourselves... thread link here.

A few more good ones:

  • The moderator is asking them about their comments acknowledging they didn’t understand the characters, and the extra minutes helped them understand the characters better.
  • Dan is saying that he let the actors redefined the roles, esp Maisie and they began writing for the actors, it is like the actor moved into the “house” and redecorated. He said he learned about the characters from the actors.

What are some of your faves from this talk?

The fantasy thing is bogus, lots of people loved Lord of the Rings. Lots of people love Stranger Things. And so on. What they did was make the story LESS special by removing the meaning.

The let the actors write the show thing is not only lazy on the part of the showrunners, it's an abdication of their responsibilities, and leads to the complete nonsense that the show became.

Actors are not screenwriters. So the result was a series of disconnected skits. Empty emoting. The actors either said they were confused by motivation or made up nonsense that changed constantly.

Also interesting - this means the actors had, however indirectly, a role in how the characters ended up. Benioff/Weiss say the actors defined the characters and the story, thus they can share the blame.

Edited by Le Cygne

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