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The Fattest Leech

Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

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7 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

OMG, that is the pits.

Putting aside for a moment that Benioff and Weiss once again stripped the meaning from a book scene and did the opposite...

Since Tyrion was able to neutralize any threat from Shae because he's stronger than she is...

and in both books and show he actually sat there and SLOWLY AND DELIBERATELY STRANGLED HER TO DEATH WITH HIS HANDS...

then why didn't he just walk away?

He didn't have to kill her. Look what you made me do is the classic domestic abuser excuse. Same toxic message as with Jon killing Dany.

(Also they hang jealousy on the woman (she wasn't in the books), but not on the man.)

GRRM condemns Tyrion strongly for murdering Shae, both here and throughout the book story:

With Shae, it’s a much more deliberate and in some ways a crueler thing. It’s not the action of a second, because he’s strangling her slowly and she’s fighting, trying to get free. He could let go at any time. But his anger and his sense of betrayal is so strong that he doesn’t stop until it’s done and that’s probably the blackest deed that he’s ever done. It’s the great crime of his soul along with what he did with his first wife by abandoning her after the little demonstration Lord Tywin put on. Now by the standards of Westeros, that’s hardly a crime at all — “So a lord killed a whore, big deal.” He’s not likely to be punished for that any more than any other lords and knights who treat lowborn women and prostitutes and tavern wenches with contempt and use them and discard them. It’s nothing to the world, but it’s again something that’s going to haunt him, while the act of killing his father is something of enormous consequence that would be forever beyond the pale, for no man is as cursed as a kinslayer.

https://ew.com/article/2014/06/16/game-of-thrones-finale-martin/

Yeah, no consequence at all on the show, because... POOR TYRION! :lmao:

If you really look at it, show wise, it is POOR TYRION...........he never really had any personal story of his own after Shae's 'betrayal' anyway.  He might as well have died there with her.  :lmao:

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4 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Yeah I imagine they were in production well before the end of the show, which feels like it ended about 5 years ago to me, instead of barely even 6 months ago.  I'd love to see footage of some of the HBO/showrunner meetings watching people try to convince themselves that the final season would go down as a triumph, LOL. 

LOLOL  That actually sounds like it would be fun.  :lol:

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30 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Just as nothing said "I love you" like Jon stabbing Daenerys through the heart, so nothing said "I love you" like Tyrion wringing Shae's neck like a chicken.

Not for the first time, I'm left wondering what is incompetence, and what is outright malice?

As it happens, I thought the affair between Jon and Ygritte was one thing that the show got right (and obviously it helped that Rose Leslie and Kit Harrington fell in love in real life).  

Yep, exactly. There's an editorial message here on the part of Benioff and Weiss (also Cogman) that is downright disturbing. They reversed everything from the books, which condemned men who did these things.

Instead, Benioff and Weiss blame the woman for the bizarre things they make her do, and they make her grateful for the abuse. They did this notoriously with Sansa and Dany, it was a pattern throughout the series.

Edited by Le Cygne

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Just now, Cas Stark said:

Yeah I imagine they were in production well before the end of the show, which feels like it ended about 5 years ago to me, instead of barely even 6 months ago.  I'd love to see footage of some of the HBO/showrunner meetings watching people try to convince themselves that the final season would go down as a triumph, LOL. 

The problem was people like me, who were willing to excuse the faults that were increasingly on display in earlier seasons, and kept faith that they'd really pull out all the stops to make Season 8 something we'd want to remember.

I can look back at earlier rant and rave threads and see myself taking all your points, but then saying "Yes but....."  and even so, there remain things that I did like, during earlier seasons.   But, everything that was wrong in earlier seasons just overwhelmed the final season.

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2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The problem was people like me, who were willing to excuse the faults that were increasingly on display in earlier seasons, and kept faith that they'd really pull out all the stops to make Season 8 something we'd want to remember.

I can look back at earlier rant and rave threads and see myself taking all your points, but then saying "Yes but....."  and even so, there remain things that I did like, during earlier seasons.   But, everything that was wrong in earlier seasons just overwhelmed the final season.

Even the most virulent hate watchers were still hoping that at least they'd bring it back up to the quality of season 5, that it would double down on all of its worst attributes, distilled into 6 episodes of expensive, well directed dumbfuckery...was surprising even for people who were criticizing the show for years. I had seen the leaks, but until they were confirmed in the first 2? episodes, I couldn't really believe that they could be true, LOL. 

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Just now, Le Cygne said:

Yep, exactly. There's an editorial message here on the part of Benioff and Weiss (also Cogman) that is downright disturbing. They reversed everything from the books, which condemned men who did these things.

If they are trying to peddle a political/moral message, it is deeply, deeply reactionary.  And, definitely not the author's political/moral message. I still don't know if one is giving them too little credit or too much by assuming that this was deliberate.   

1. It's unnatural for women to seek political power.  

2. Women provoke their male lovers into killing them.

3. People who fight injustice are in reality tyrants, or become tyrants.

4. It's better to accept that unjust social systems are just the way things are.

5. Women who resist rapists put themselves on a par with their attackers, morally.

6. Women have an obligation to stand up for the people who abuse them.

7. Cruelty is badass (unless you're Dany in Season 8).

8.  Sex slaves enjoy their work (and frequently give it away for free).

 

 

 

 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

I'm really floored at the over emphasis on the St. Tyrion ass kissing in that section of the book.  It almost seems like a requirement, like D&D apologist 101?   It wasn't even necessary, these story details of Shae and St. Tyrion's 'love,' that's why I guess it surprises me. 

I stopped reading when I got to the part that basically said it was all Shae’s fault, since her love turned to jealousy and she tried to kill Tyrion and there was nothing he could do but defend himself. Really, truly, vomit-inducing. :ack:

 

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3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I stopped reading when I got to the part that basically said it was all Shae’s fault, since her love turned to jealousy and she tried to kill Tyrion and there was nothing he could do but defend himself. Really, truly, vomit-inducing. :ack:

 

The thing is in the books, Shae is a rather nasty person, (albeit a victim of abuse) but Martin still makes it plain that Tyrion murdered her, in circumstances that were inexcusable.

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10 minutes ago, SeanF said:

If they are trying to peddle a political/moral message, it is deeply, deeply reactionary.  And, definitely not the author's political/moral message. I still don't know if one is giving them too little credit or too much by assuming that this was deliberate.   

1. It's unnatural for women to seek political power.  

2. Women provoke their male lovers into killing them.

3. People who fight injustice are in reality tyrants, or become tyrants.

4. It's better to accept that unjust social systems are just the way things are.

5. Women who resist rapists put themselves on a par with their attackers, morally.

6. Women have an obligation to stand up for the people who abuse them.

7. Cruelty is badass (unless you're Dany in Season 8).

8.  Sex slaves enjoy their work (and frequently give it away for free)

Oh, it was deliberate. It's easy to put out shitty messages. Benioff and Weiss write from such a privileged viewpoint, it seeps out of every plot point, throughout the show. And was sanctioned by the HBO good ole boys.

And how they ended it, with their practically perfect in every way self-insert Tyrion and his buddy yukking it up about brothels, is emblematic of this. It's amusing to them that peasant women will have to feed their egos.

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33 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The thing is in the books, Shae is a rather nasty person, (albeit a victim of abuse) but Martin still makes it plain that Tyrion murdered her, in circumstances that were inexcusable.

Tyrion kidnapped her, didn't pay her, slapped her, and put in mortal danger so she'd be more conveniently nearby to screw, despite explicit warnings not to do so by his father, who had a track record of ordering psychos to brutalize his first wife, a princess, as well as so many peasant women.

They changed Shae into a Stepford Whore rather than allow her to rebel against the situation she found herself in. Just like they changed Sansa, to eliminate her resistance when she was forced to marry him. Just like they made the sex slave beg him to do her. They were just props for the precious.

Edited by Le Cygne

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43 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

If you really look at it, show wise, it is POOR TYRION...........he never really had any personal story of his own after Shae's 'betrayal' anyway.  He might as well have died there with her.  :lmao:

True, one point that seemed to have escaped them in all their privileged HBO film school for rich boy brilliance... a character with flaws is a hell of a lot more interesting than a paragon of perfection.

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17 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The thing is in the books, Shae is a rather nasty person, (albeit a victim of abuse) but Martin still makes it plain that Tyrion murdered her, in circumstances that were inexcusable.

There was an unavoidable hard-nosed practicality to it (see alarms, the raising of). It did come to that point because Tyrion wasn't being that practical, though (investigating a noise in a chamber).

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3 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

True, one point that seemed to have escaped them in all their privileged HBO film school for rich boy brilliance... a character with flaws is a hell of a lot more interesting than a paragon of perfection.

Sure.  Tyrion in the books is basically Shakespeare's Richard III, and everyone loves Richard III as a character, even as they accept he's a terrible man who has to get his comeuppance.

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3 minutes ago, illrede said:

There was an unavoidable hard-nosed practicality to it (see alarms, the raising of). It did come to that point because Tyrion wasn't being that practical, though (investigating a noise in a chamber).

That's true, although what really triggered Tyrion was being called "my giant of Lannister" - "You couldn't have said anything worse."

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Ah, it seems there are more articles, of course, on the release of these books.  I'm still picking through this article I found, thankfully, so far, I haven't stumbled upon more Put Upon St. Tyrion and D&D propaganda. 

This article is about the art book, I'm still picking through it. 

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/11/game-of-thrones-original-night-king-design-art-book

 

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7 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

Ah, it seems there are more articles, of course, on the release of these books.  I'm still picking through this article I found, thankfully, so far, I haven't stumbled upon more Put Upon St. Tyrion and D&D propaganda. 

This article is about the art book, I'm still picking through it. 

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/11/game-of-thrones-original-night-king-design-art-book

 

Back to Dany burning the Red Keep, in the article.  That is entirely explicable.

The problem is that the episode shows her turning aside from the Red Keep to massacre civilians for no reason at all.  That's what leaves everybody scratching their heads. 

 

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45 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Back to Dany burning the Red Keep, in the article.  That is entirely explicable.

The problem is that the episode shows her turning aside from the Red Keep to massacre civilians for no reason at all.  That's what leaves everybody scratching their heads. 

 

EXACTLY!!  The episode explicitly shows her burning every damn thing in sight, for quite awhile, besides the Red Keep.  It looks like her and Drogon were running some sort of Maze Puzzle and Pattern, hitting everything BUT the supposed target of her ire.  All because they wanted her to burn everything BUT the Red Keep, else wise, how else to try to turn her into Hitler and Her Satanic Majesty in Mere Minutes? 

Edited by Lady Fevre Dream

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Am I in the wrong for thinking that Sansa (to give an example) should have been taught how to fight? Because I think that she should have, particularly since she wound up caught in a situation where she couldn't talk her way out when the wights attacked the civilians in the crypts.

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19 hours ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

EXACTLY!!  The episode explicitly shows her burning every damn thing in sight, for quite awhile, besides the Red Keep.  It looks like her and Drogon were running some sort of Maze Puzzle and Pattern, hitting everything BUT the supposed target of her ire.  All because they wanted her to burn everything BUT the Red Keep, else wise, how else to try to turn her into Hitler and Her Satanic Majesty in Mere Minutes? 

This reminds me of those vegamatic commercials! Chopped characterization in mere minutes!

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On 10/17/2019 at 6:49 AM, Le Cygne said:

Yeah, I can see that, too. Books he gets extremely bitter when pretty women reject him, and we know he's murdered one already.

 

He's also raped another.

Tyrion Lannister has never really been that good of person. He likes to think himself as a good person but no one really likes him at all. Why? His own family (not just Cersei and Tywin) never seemed to care that much about him. And I don't think it has that much to do with the fact that he is a dwarf. And the people who did like Tyrion are other social outcasts, many of them are just as sketchy or worst.

And he's only gotten worse. So, for them to make him the moral authority of everything in Westeros is just...disgusting. The fact that anyone in Westeros pays him any mind after he killed his own father and lover.

 

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