Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

[Le Cygne]

7 hours ago, SeanF said:

Despite what they claim, I'm not at all convinced that the decision to vilify Daenerys was taken until after Season 7.

It just so flies in the face of everything they were saying.  "She's the good Targaryen, a heroine" and all of the suggestions that she and Jon would have a child together.

I can entirely accept that if and when we get the books, Daenerys, a sympathetic protagonist, will come into conflict with other sympathetic protagonists, because they have conflicting political aims.  But, that does not require the vilification of either protagonist. 

Yeah, there were so many dead end storylines that were forgotten. One could endlessly list, Why did they spend all this time on {fill in the blank}?

There was a constant "what if?" going on between them, to out-awesome each other (this would be awesome, no this would be more awesome, no this) as they said:

"What if you’re wrong? What if there’s a better idea out there and you planted a flag on the second- or third-best idea? So it was always more a “What if…” conversation..."

[Le Cygne]

17 hours ago, Ser Drewy said:

So I decided to finish something I began writing months ago (the final season caused a long, long period of GOT-related disinterest in me): https://medium.com/@alpenglowmemory/game-of-thrones-and-the-short-life-of-shock-value-c38c9379ffe8?sk=a71d34bb96721185e29f59a52a6ef034 

Great rant!

Some favorite bits:

Arya (showrunners blatant favourite) astutely informed us all that Dany’s a killer… which makes one ponder if Benioff and Weiss lacked all self-awareness: Show Arya’s murders are often extrajudicial and all about personal retribution; pettier motivators than the Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea’s were generally shown to be.

Watching the smug and smarmy outside the episodes where they attempted to justify their existence as showrunners of a globally broadcast show was like watching the two stooges, an ever evolving farce, where they revealed a lack of awareness of anything at all.

This is so spot on it made me laugh, about Arya Ninja Turtle:

It’s a bit like watching Frodo and Sam struggle up the slopes of Mount Doom, dying from the strain, the heat, the traumas beforehand, and the power of the Ring, only for Ted Sandyman to swoop in on an Eagle, take the Ring from Frodo’s hand and toss it into the lava.

And this:

Shock is not a replacement for theme, heart, or quality. It does not reward numerous viewings, not when the story collapses on itself to attain said shocks. The more one looks back on the show, the more problems arise, the less makes sense, and the thinner the world and people who populate it seem. It relied on the immediacy; the ‘what happens next!’ effect. Once that’s been answered, what else was left?

Great question, and the essence of how they failed. People don't like remembering the show because there's nothing to remember. It wasn't a story about human beings, they never saw them that way. It wasn't nihilism, because that's thematic and they don't know how to do that.

The only messages are toxic ones. Murder is awesome when your only living relative or a ninja turtle does it, throwing away your life to die with your abuser is awesome, be sure to thank your awesome sex trafficker and rapist, dudebros yukking it up over brothels is awesome...

They could never look outside of themselves to tell a story about anyone else, so they basically just revealed themselves to everyone, and it wasn't a pretty sight.

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Great rant!

Some favorite bits:

Arya (showrunners blatant favourite) astutely informed us all that Dany’s a killer… which makes one ponder if Benioff and Weiss lacked all self-awareness: Show Arya’s murders are often extrajudicial and all about personal retribution; pettier motivators than the Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea’s were generally shown to be.

Watching the smug and smarmy outside the episodes where they attempted to justify their existence as showrunners of a globally broadcast show was like watching the two stooges, an ever evolving farce, where they revealed a lack of awareness of anything at all.

This is so spot on it made me laugh, about Arya Ninja Turtle:

It’s a bit like watching Frodo and Sam struggle up the slopes of Mount Doom, dying from the strain, the heat, the traumas beforehand, and the power of the Ring, only for Ted Sandyman to swoop in on an Eagle, take the Ring from Frodo’s hand and toss it into the lava.

And this:

Shock is not a replacement for theme, heart, or quality. It does not reward numerous viewings, not when the story collapses on itself to attain said shocks. The more one looks back on the show, the more problems arise, the less makes sense, and the thinner the world and people who populate it seem. It relied on the immediacy; the ‘what happens next!’ effect. Once that’s been answered, what else was left?

Great question, and the essence of how they failed. People don't like remembering the show because there's nothing to remember. It wasn't a story about human beings, they never saw them that way. It wasn't nihilism, because that's thematic and they don't know how to do that.

The only messages are toxic ones. Murder is awesome when your only living relative or a ninja turtle does it, throwing away your life to die with your abuser is awesome, be sure to thank your awesome sex trafficker and rapist, dudebros yukking it up over brothels is awesome...

They could never look outside of themselves to tell a story about anyone else, so they basically just revealed themselves to everyone, and it wasn't a pretty sight.

The more I think about it, the more annoyed I get.  You've spoken about the sunk cost fallacy.  I loved this show at one point, defended it against its critics - and now realise it was just as bad as the critics said it was. 

[A Ghost of Someone]

D&D&C should be outcasts for what they did

[Nowy Tends]

3 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

D&D&C should be outcasts for what they did

But Hollywood loves them: they won the International Emmy Founders Award  

[Le Cygne]

11 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

D&D&C should be outcasts for what they did

They should be. The good ole boys of Hollywood gave D&D a new rich boy film school at Netflix, since they flunked the first one (I put them as my reason for cancelling). Too bad C didn't go with them. Easier to avoid them all that way.

(And I agree with your signature! Never.)

[SeanF]

I've no desire even to rewatch episodes and scenes that I liked, knowing that the end is completely nihilistic.

It was like getting a version of LOTR, in which Frodo claims the Ring, and announces he will conquer the world.  Sam stabs him, and he falls into the Cracks of Doom.  Sam spends the rest of his life as a remorseful recluse.  Aragon is an ineffectual King, with a council led by Grima Wormtongue that prioritises new brothels. 

[Ser Drewy]

The commentary for the S8 finale has leaked. Lol. 

[Lucky7]

On 11/7/2019 at 6:35 PM, SeanF said:

Tyrion failed upwards because he was D & D's golden boy.  Women loved his magical cock, and everybody listened to his wise words.

Which is hilarious because Tyrion literally ain't did shit for 4 seasons. Literally, in Season 5 he has one conversation and convinces Dany to take him on as advisor. In Season 6, in one of if not his last good scene as a character, he frees the dragons (not that it matters because after this, despite the fact that they could have gotten out anytime as later demonstrated by them, they just stay in the crypt for weeks for no apparent reason until Dany comes back). Season 7, I think he talks to Cersei unsuccessfully and despite the fact that Cersei has always hated Tyrion since the day he was born and never listened to anything he said, somehow they all say he's the only who can convince her? Season 8, I legit can't think of a single noteworthy thing he does. 

 

Yet, somehow, despite doing nothing, literally to the truest meaning of the word, absolutely none of his plans working, none of his negotiations resulting in something advantageous, none of his counsel bringing meaningful results, people keep listening to him and acting like he has something worthwhile to say. Its as if they're going by his Season 1-4 track record (when the series made sense) while Dany dubs him Hand for not only doing nothing but actively doing things she's against (like allowing slavery for 7 years if they promise to stop afterwards, again, didn't work and they just attacked and they had to be saved by Dany/dragons).

[Le Cygne]

13 minutes ago, Ser Drewy said:

 

The commentary for the S8 finale has leaked. Lol. 

 

They made Emilia do it. They have no shame.

Someone provide the lowlights so we can laugh, don't want to listen to Benioff/Weiss.

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

They made Emilia do it. They have no shame.

Someone provide the lowlights so we can laugh, don't want to listen to Benioff/Weiss.

She must loathe them.

[Angel Eyes]

59 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I've no desire even to rewatch episodes and scenes that I liked, knowing that the end is completely nihilistic.

It was like getting a version of LOTR, in which Frodo claims the Ring, and announces he will conquer the world.  Sam stabs him, and he falls into the Cracks of Doom.  Sam spends the rest of his life as a remorseful recluse.  Aragon is an ineffectual King, with a council led by Grima Wormtongue that prioritises new brothels. 

Except that Grima’s already dead.

 

28 minutes ago, Lucky7 said:

Which is hilarious because Tyrion literally ain't did shit for 4 seasons. Literally, in Season 5 he has one conversation and convinces Dany to take him on as advisor. In Season 6, in one of if not his last good scene as a character, he frees the dragons (not that it matters because after this, despite the fact that they could have gotten out anytime as later demonstrated by them, they just stay in the crypt for weeks for no apparent reason until Dany comes back). Season 7, I think he talks to Cersei unsuccessfully and despite the fact that Cersei has always hated Tyrion since the day he was born and never listened to anything he said, somehow they all say he's the only who can convince her? Season 8, I legit can't think of a single noteworthy thing he does. 

 

Yet, somehow, despite doing nothing, literally to the truest meaning of the word, absolutely none of his plans working, none of his negotiations resulting in something advantageous, none of his counsel bringing meaningful results, people keep listening to him and acting like he has something worthwhile to say. Its as if they're going by his Season 1-4 track record (when the series made sense) while Dany dubs him Hand for not only doing nothing but actively doing things she's against (like allowing slavery for 7 years if they promise to stop afterwards, again, didn't work and they just attacked and they had to be saved by Dany/dragons).

I’m not sure why Tyrion cares so much about Cersei, since she’s never given a damn about him and has had tried to kill him a few times. 

 

[Le Cygne]

43 minutes ago, SeanF said:

She must loathe them.

Just beyond the pale, to even consider asking her to do that episode. She made it perfectly clear it was super disturbing to her, and still bothers her.

 

[Nagini's Neville]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I've no desire even to rewatch episodes and scenes that I liked, knowing that the end is completely nihilistic.

It was like getting a version of LOTR, in which Frodo claims the Ring, and announces he will conquer the world.  Sam stabs him, and he falls into the Cracks of Doom.  Sam spends the rest of his life as a remorseful recluse.  Aragon is an ineffectual King, with a council led by Grima Wormtongue that prioritises new brothels. 

wow, thanks for putting it into perspective for someone, who doesn't really know what went on with the show. I tried to stay a bit up to date with it for hints for the future books. But this sounds absolutely awful!! Now I'm really happy I didn't invest my time into it. I watched a bit of Sansa s2 and I felt like they cut all of the optimistic and idealistic aspects and it was suddenly all about all you can do is become cold and a killer to survive and I just think it's a bit more complex than that in the books. But it might be a very subjective impression from the few short scenes I've seen.

[SeanF]

8 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

wow, thanks for putting it into perspective for someone, who doesn't really know what went on with the show. I tried to stay a bit up to date with it for hints for the future books. But this sounds absolutely awful!! Now I'm really happy I didn't invest my time into it. I watched a bit of Sansa s2 and I felt like they cut all of the optimistic and idealistic aspects and it was suddenly all about all you can do is become cold and a killer to survive and I just think it's a bit more complex than that in the books. But it might be a very subjective impression from the few short scenes I've seen.

My fear is that GRRM will give us the same bleak, cynical, nihilistic ending.  My hope is that he will not.

The two most important of the sympathetic characters are Jon and Daenerys.  Both have flaws, but both are fundamentally heroic.  I don't mind one or both dying, for some heroic reason, but to have one turning into Old Yeller, and being put down by the other, would be a horrible tale.  And not remotely bittersweet.

[Cas Stark]

12 minutes ago, SeanF said:

My fear is that GRRM will give us the same bleak, cynical, nihilistic ending.  My hope is that he will not.

The two most important of the sympathetic characters are Jon and Daenerys.  Both have flaws, but both are fundamentally heroic.  I don't mind one or both dying, for some heroic reason, but to have one turning into Old Yeller, and being put down by the other, would be a horrible tale.  And not remotely bittersweet.

He will, I have no doubt of it.  Sure, it will be a smarter, better constructed, more rewarding version of nihilism, but it will be nihilism just the same.  The books have been trending toward nihilism for a long time anyway.   How could it be otherwise if Dany ends up a villain, Jon ends up a nobody in the North, sworn to have no children, the Stark line ends with the current generation, Bran is king and Tyrion the murderer kinslayer, father killer lives happily ever after?  

And don't fool yourself that George is giving her a heroic death or a death over some misunderstanding.  He will give her the same death in that she will turn into a megalomaniac villain convinced of her own righteousness and that all who oppose her are evil.  If you can read between the lines of stupid, this is the what the show's message was.  I  doubt Jon stabs her, but he may conspire to her death.

[SeanF]

2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

He will, I have no doubt of it.  Sure, it will be a smarter, better constructed, more rewarding version of nihilism, but it will be nihilism just the same.  The books have been trending toward nihilism for a long time anyway.   How could it be otherwise if Dany ends up a villain, Jon ends up a nobody in the North, sworn to have no children, the Stark line ends with the current generation, Bran is king and Tyrion the murderer kinslayer, father killer lives happily ever after?  

And don't fool yourself that George is giving her a heroic death or a death over some misunderstanding.  He will give her the same death in that she will turn into a megalomaniac villain convinced of her own righteousness and that all who oppose her are evil.  If you can read between the lines of stupid, this is the what the show's message was.  I  doubt Jon stabs her, but he may conspire to her death.

If so, we will have been trolled for 30 years, and the books will be out of print within a decade.  Nihilism only attracts a niche following.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

2 hours ago, Ser Drewy said:

The commentary for the S8 finale has leaked. Lol. 

 

2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

They made Emilia do it. They have no shame.

Someone provide the lowlights so we can laugh, don't want to listen to Benioff/Weiss.

 

WOW!!  I spot checked with listening, at first I thought it was a joke, but I hit the part where they are praising themselves for the little funny of leaving Tyrion out of their SONG OF ICE AND FIRE, and it's obvious this is real. 

This seems to be for the DVDs coming, that commentary?  It's not the missing Inside the Episode Circle Jerk, they wouldn't have someone else with them.

Poor Emilia, sitting with them to comment on that damn travesty, DAMN!! 

Anyway, just catching up, that seems to be what's going on, as I said, I spot checked it out, for now. 

[Cas Stark]

33 minutes ago, SeanF said:

If so, we will have been trolled for 30 years, and the books will be out of print within a decade.  Nihilism only attracts a niche following.

GRRM is one of the premier trolls in history.  I don't know about the books being out of print though, the world is full of nihilists who think that nihilism is 'realistic' and edgy.  He won't ever get the last book out though, so that allows idealists to create a better ending. 

And you could certainly look at the show trying to give the main characters a happier ending than will stand up under close scrutiny.  Arya, who has so far spent 5 books on a quest to regain family, fucks off to nowhere: nihilism, and no amount of RD music will change that.  If Sansa does become a solo queen, with no husband or partner, then the stage is set for no more Starks, same that is a dark, dark ending for her, with no family or children.   Bran's life is already ruined, king or no king, him being king will be like Dune, a miserable, thankless job. Jon, in the end, nothing is nothing, he's not a Stark or a Targ and fucks off back to the wall to live in squalor: nihilism.  Dany's desire to save people does a 180 and she becomes the thing she thinks she fights against:  double dose of nihilism.  

Of course GRRM will not call this nihilism, he will call it bittersweet because most of the main characters people have been rooting for: Jon, Tyrion, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Brienne are alive at the end. 

[SeanF]

17 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

GRRM is one of the premier trolls in history.  I don't know about the books being out of print though, the world is full of nihilists who think that nihilism is 'realistic' and edgy.  He won't ever get the last book out though, so that allows idealists to create a better ending. 

And you could certainly look at the show trying to give the main characters a happier ending than will stand up under close scrutiny.  Arya, who has so far spent 5 books on a quest to regain family, fucks off to nowhere: nihilism, and no amount of RD music will change that.  If Sansa does become a solo queen, with no husband or partner, then the stage is set for no more Starks, same that is a dark, dark ending for her, with no family or children.   Bran's life is already ruined, king or no king, him being king will be like Dune, a miserable, thankless job. Jon, in the end, nothing is nothing, he's not a Stark or a Targ and fucks off back to the wall to live in squalor: nihilism.  Dany's desire to save people does a 180 and she becomes the thing she thinks she fights against:  double dose of nihilism.  

Of course GRRM will not call this nihilism, he will call it bittersweet because most of the main characters people have been rooting for: Jon, Tyrion, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Brienne are alive at the end. 

It's worse than Thomas Hardy.

Thanks for persuading me I've been wasting my time with this series.