Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

[Cas Stark]

The problem wasn't necessarily lack of Arianne and Aegon, because based on the end and their absence from the show, they go nowhere, but more that the distribution of their actions was done so poorly.  Adding in another two main characters whose stories end in failure and death, I don't think that would have helped the show.  Plotting out a decent story for the last 3 seasons where things at least made some surface sense would have been the way to go.

[SeanF]

23 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

The problem wasn't necessarily lack of Arianne and Aegon, because based on the end and their absence from the show, they go nowhere, but more that the distribution of their actions was done so poorly.  Adding in another two main characters whose stories end in failure and death, I don't think that would have helped the show.  Plotting out a decent story for the last 3 seasons where things at least made some surface sense would have been the way to go.

My own view is that the wrong Queen died when the Sept blew up.  Having the battle for the Iron Throne being between Margaery and Tommen, v Daenerys, would have been far better balanced, morally and militarily, than Cersei v Daenerys.  It would make sense for people to rally to Margaery and Tommen, and there would be no need to destroy Dany's forces through stupid military tactics and wight hunts.

[Le Cygne]

I think if they had included the original characters they cut instead of swapping in other characters, it would have improved things right there.

Characters are not really interchangeable, any more than people. It's laughable to think you can swap someone's body into someone else's life.

Their writing is atrocious, however. So even with the great improvement sticking with the original characters would have made, they'd still have botched it.

They'd still have done the butterflies turning into dragons thing, where they made bizarre choices for no real reason, that destroyed the characters.

[Cas Stark]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

My own view is that the wrong Queen died when the Sept blew up.  Having the battle for the Iron Throne being between Margaery and Tommen, v Daenerys, would have been far better balanced, morally and militarily, than Cersei v Daenerys.  It would make sense for people to rally to Margaery and Tommen, and there would be no need to destroy Dany's forces through stupid military tactics and wight hunts.

That might have worked, especially since they turned Dany into pure evil in the end anyway, having her kill Marg Boleyn wouldn't have been that bad.  The showrunners obsession with Lena really caused a lot of ripples for the last 2 or 3 years of the show.  And, then, it turns out, they kept her alive for nothing, she did nothing, said nothing of any interest or importance for the last season.  Even her death scene was lame and unsatisfying.  But, that's D&D for you, they can always make a putrid stew out of the lemons they grew instead of lemonade.

[SeanF]

8 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

That might have worked, especially since they turned Dany into pure evil in the end anyway, having her kill Marg Boleyn wouldn't have been that bad.  The showrunners obsession with Lena really caused a lot of ripples for the last 2 or 3 years of the show.  And, then, it turns out, they kept her alive for nothing, she did nothing, said nothing of any interest or importance for the last season.  Even her death scene was lame and unsatisfying.  But, that's D&D for you, they can always make a putrid stew out of the lemons they grew instead of lemonade.

I think that in the books, Daenerys is more or less bound to come into conflict with other sympathetic characters, because their political aims will conflict.  They could have done that in the show without having to vilify either side.

As you've frequently pointed out, Cersei should simply have been overthrown as a result of murdering the High Sparrow and half the nobility, and a load of the Smallfolk.  It made no sense for the Reach Lords to support her, after having murdered their Queen, their liege lord, and his son.

[Le Cygne]

7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think that in the books, Daenerys is more or less bound to come into conflict with other sympathetic characters, because their political aims will conflict.  They could have done that in the show without having to vilify either side.

As you've frequently pointed out, Cersei should simply have been overthrown as a result of murdering the High Sparrow and half the nobility, and a load of the Smallfolk.  It made no sense for the Reach Lords to support her, after having murdered their Queen, their liege lord, and his son.

Also Jaime should have, like, been a wee bit repulsed that she drove Tommen to jump out the window. Whatever.

The show is like a Twilight Zone episode with aliens trying to approximate human behavior, but doing a really bad job at it.

[Cas Stark]

9 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think that in the books, Daenerys is more or less bound to come into conflict with other sympathetic characters, because their political aims will conflict.  They could have done that in the show without having to vilify either side.

As you've frequently pointed out, Cersei should simply have been overthrown as a result of murdering the High Sparrow and half the nobility, and a load of the Smallfolk.  It made no sense for the Reach Lords to support her, after having murdered their Queen, their liege lord, and his son.

And even with that stupidity, they still might have done something mildly interesting by showing how, similar to where she has been going in the books, she has to resort to ever more draconian moves to keep power and ally herself with more and more losers, and therefore becoming more and more unhinged, if they were going to keep Cersei alive, why not give Lena something to act?.  Instead, the show had everyone say, yeah whatever, you are my queen, and I will even die for you and have my son die for you, even though you killed my liege lord, his heir, and the rightful queen and pope, and Cersei herself became like a ghost character.  ? So lazy.  No one will ever convince me that they are not some of the laziest writers around.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

Also Jaime should have, like, been a wee bit repulsed that she drove Tommen to jump out the window. Whatever.

The show is like a Twilight Zone episode with aliens trying to approximate human behavior, but doing a really bad job at it.

I think you called them pod people.

[Nowy Tends]

2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Also Jaime should have, like, been a wee bit repulsed that she drove Tommen to jump out the window. Whatever.

Specially when Cersei says "Tommen was a traitor" 

[Le Cygne]

18 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

Specially when Cersei says "Tommen was a traitor" 

And Jaime has no response to that.

I just remembered this from the books:

My sweet sister, the deceiver. He would need to find some way to winkle Tommen from her clutches before the boy became another Joffrey.

But hey, Cersei is all that matters - because nothing says that like burning her letter when she begs him to save her life.

[Le Cygne]

19 hours ago, SeanF said:

I think you called them pod people.

That, too! But at least the aliens put on a good show while trying to be human.

[SeanF]

On 1/4/2020 at 7:37 PM, Cas Stark said:

And even with that stupidity, they still might have done something mildly interesting by showing how, similar to where she has been going in the books, she has to resort to ever more draconian moves to keep power and ally herself with more and more losers, and therefore becoming more and more unhinged, if they were going to keep Cersei alive, why not give Lena something to act?.  Instead, the show had everyone say, yeah whatever, you are my queen, and I will even die for you and have my son die for you, even though you killed my liege lord, his heir, and the rightful queen and pope, and Cersei herself became like a ghost character.  ? So lazy.  No one will ever convince me that they are not some of the laziest writers around.

The last good scene with Cersei was her final confrontation with Ellaria Sand.

People come up with ever more tortuous logic to defend what happened.  Apparently, murdering one's liege lord allows a vassal to side with the murderer.  Not as I understand feudal law and custom.  It would be like saying that after Ned's execution, the Boltons were entitled to sack Winterfell.

[Corvinus85]

Well Kit didn't win the Golden Globe

Spoiler

because he didn't want it.

 

[Cas Stark]

17 hours ago, SeanF said:

The last good scene with Cersei was her final confrontation with Ellaria Sand.

People come up with ever more tortuous logic to defend what happened.  Apparently, murdering one's liege lord allows a vassal to side with the murderer.  Not as I understand feudal law and custom.  It would be like saying that after Ned's execution, the Boltons were entitled to sack Winterfell.

Right?  Or after the Boltons killed Robb Stark that everyone in the North would be like, yeah, hey, whatever, Boltons are now our liege lords and we will fight to the death for them. 

I was SO glad when they finally killed off the stupid as fuck hateful kinslaying sand snakes and their insane mother,  but at least we got a through line on the plot there...they allied w/Dany against Cersei for legit reasons, they fought a battle and lost, they were captured and killed as a result...that this is logical step by step must have been an accident, LOL. 

[SeanF]

21 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Right?  Or after the Boltons killed Robb Stark that everyone in the North would be like, yeah, hey, whatever, Boltons are now our liege lords and we will fight to the death for them. 

I was SO glad when they finally killed off the stupid as fuck hateful kinslaying sand snakes and their insane mother,  but at least we got a through line on the plot there...they allied w/Dany against Cersei for legit reasons, they fought a battle and lost, they were captured and killed as a result...that this is logical step by step must have been an accident, LOL. 

Up to a point, but remember that they avenged Oberyen by murdering his brother and nephew and all the Dornish were okay with that.

[Le Cygne]

There were so many book storylines that were set up on the show (however poorly), then destroyed or abandoned and perhaps given a token scene in the end that didn't match the promise of the beginning.

Take Jon and Arya. They love each other so much, think about each other endlessly in the books. He gives everything to try to save her, she's his dying thoughts. Books, his feelings for her (and hers for him) drove the plot.

Show, suddenly we see they care in the end, they were bawling, he caressed her face, he asked her to come to him (something she tried to do endlessly in the books), she was everything to him, and he to her... too late.

All their show fanfic made no sense for the characters. They threw characters and plots together who didn't belong storywise, on a whim, because they simply didn't care about the characters or story they were given.

Butterflies turning into dragons. What a mess they made.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

There were so many book storylines that were set up on the show (however poorly), then destroyed or abandoned and perhaps given a token scene in the end that didn't match the promise of the beginning.

Take Jon and Arya. They love each other so much, think about each other endlessly in the books. He gives everything to try to save her, she's his dying thoughts. Books, his feelings for her (and hers for him) drove the plot.

Show, suddenly we see they care in the end, they were bawling, he caressed her face, he asked her to come to him (something she tried to do endlessly in the books), she was everything to him, and he to her... too late.

All their show fanfic made no sense for the characters. They threw characters and plots together who didn't belong storywise, on a whim, because they simply didn't care about the characters or story they were given.

Butterflies turning into dragons. What a mess they made.

Again and again. 

It's a very important part of the plot of ADWD that Volantis will revolt at the instigation of the Red Priests, in favour of Daenerys.  I imagine that it will be a massive temptation for Daenerys to put herself at the head of a religious revolution sweeping Essos in TWOW, like Paul of Dune.   Will she resist it or succumb? Given that this never formed part of the show's story, what was the point of including a brief scene with Kinvara?

What was the point of a reference to the Prince Who Was Promised, given that they tried to remove prophetical elements from the story?

What was the point of the Maggy the Frog scene, given it never led to anything?

What was the point of Arya overhearing Varys talking to Illyrio, when fAegon plays no part in the story. and we never hear from Illyrio again?

Why give Sansa the stories of Jeyne Poole and Alys Karstark?

Why hint that Jon and Dany would have a child, when it never led anywhere?

The Pink Letter was the climax of the Northern storyline in ADWD.  In the show, it's completely underwhelming.

Why turn Stannis and Ellaria into villains?

One could just go on and on.

[Le Cygne]

Bronn as lord of Highgarden and Master of Coin says it all, it's flipping the bird at the source material as well as the audience. Tyrion ends as he began, blathering about prostitutes, after getting away with betrayals and murders. Brienne honors the asshole who said his sister lover is the only thing that ever mattered to him. Starks are "I got mine" assholes who break vows, give family killers what they want, and frequently commit murder (they almost murdered each other multiple times). And so on.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

Bronn as lord of Highgarden and Master of Coin says it all, it's flipping the bird at the source material as well as the audience. Tyrion ends as he began, blathering about prostitutes, after getting away with betrayals and murders. Brienne honors the asshole who said his sister lover is the only thing that ever mattered to him. Starks are "I got mine" assholes who break vows, give family killers what they want, and frequently commit murder (they almost murdered each other multiple times). And so on.

I don't know why they didn't just turn it into a bloodbath like Titus Andronicus at the end, given the extent to which they'd already jumped the shark.

Arya asks "Where are Bran and Sansa?"

Dany replies "Why there they are, both baked in that pie, whereof their sister hath most daintly fed, eating off the very flesh that Lady Catelyn bred".

Arya leaps over and slashes Dany across the throat.  Jon beheads Arya with Longclaw.  Tyrion poisons Jon, and is sentenced to die horribly.  His last words are:  "If one good deed in all my life I did, I do repent it with my very soul."

At least, it would have been blackly funny.

[SilverGhost]

Well at least they didn't give Bronn a dragon. 

"Hello I'm Tyrion and currently in prison for Treason - We should make the guy who didn't do anything but stare at everyone like a weirdo. and whose family has just "noped" out of the Seven Kingdoms led by his sister, King because he has a great story. Never mind that he didn't do anything and that others have far more complex personal journeys, just take my advice like you did when I said we should hide women and children in crypts while facing a necromancer."