Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

[SeanF]

17 hours ago, SilverGhost said:

Well at least they didn't give Bronn a dragon. 

"Hello I'm Tyrion and currently in prison for Treason - We should make the guy who didn't do anything but stare at everyone like a weirdo. and whose family has just "noped" out of the Seven Kingdoms led by his sister, King because he has a great story. Never mind that he didn't do anything and that others have far more complex personal journeys, just take my advice like you did when I said we should hide women and children in crypts while facing a necromancer." 

Did Tyrion actually give a single piece of good advice in the last three seasons?

[Cas Stark]

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

Did Tyrion actually give a single piece of good advice in the last three seasons?

No.

[BlackLightning]

On 1/4/2020 at 10:53 AM, Cas Stark said:

The problem wasn't necessarily lack of Arianne and Aegon, because based on the end and their absence from the show, they go nowhere, but more that the distribution of their actions was done so poorly.  Adding in another two main characters whose stories end in failure and death, I don't think that would have helped the show.  Plotting out a decent story for the last 3 seasons where things at least made some surface sense would have been the way to go.

I completely disagree. The very fact that Aegon is Aegon (or rather, says he is Aegon) gives Daenerys something AND someone to fight when she comes to Westeros. Someone that will be very hard to defeat and remove, despite the fact that he is no match for her militarily or economically. Arianne, unlike Sansa, has a legitimate problem with Daenerys and has a bad habit of being a sucker for fake news.

Aegon's story is probably going to end in failure and death but I doubt Arianne's story will. I think Arianne will continue to be a thorn in Daenerys' side up until the very bittersweet end.

On 1/4/2020 at 1:24 PM, SeanF said:

I think that in the books, Daenerys is more or less bound to come into conflict with other sympathetic characters, because their political aims will conflict.  They could have done that in the show without having to vilify either side.

As you've frequently pointed out, Cersei should simply have been overthrown as a result of murdering the High Sparrow and half the nobility, and a load of the Smallfolk.  It made no sense for the Reach Lords to support her, after having murdered their Queen, their liege lord, and his son.

There's no way that Cersei would have been able to stay in power (much less become Queen Rex) after blowing up an entire city district and killing thousands of people just so that she can avoid being tried for crimes that she actually committed.

If they ran Rhaenyra (a much more legitimate Queen) out of King's Landing and stormed the Dragonpit because of Rhaenyra's strict policymaking (albeit excessively strict) and the rumors about the true nature of Helaena's death, then...lol

There's no way that Cersei would be able to unite the majority of southern Westeros against Daenerys.

[Cas Stark]

Maybe if they had done the show for 10-11 years then Aegon could have replaced Cersei as the main antagonist of the last third/quarter, but as it was, adding in the Aegon/Arianne storyline so late in the series would have thrown the audience and further damaged what little arc there was the last 3 seasons, viewers already, had trouble remembering everyone but the Starks, Lannisters, Margery and Dany....adding another two major characters and their secondaries would have been overwhelming.  But, mileage will vary on this, and I am someone who doesn't like their book story either. 

[Lord Varys]

9 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Maybe if they had done the show for 10-11 years then Aegon could have replaced Cersei as the main antagonist of the last third/quarter, but as it was, adding in the Aegon/Arianne storyline so late in the series would have thrown the audience and further damaged what little arc there was the last 3 seasons, viewers already, had trouble remembering everyone but the Starks, Lannisters, Margery and Dany....adding another two major characters and their secondaries would have been overwhelming.  But, mileage will vary on this, and I am someone who doesn't like their book story either. 

Nah, they knew that Aegon/Arianne were to come, and could have introduced them both earlier and in a better way than George if they felt this was an issue.

Cersei/the Tyrells would have been a horrible antagonist/climax for the end. If they wanted to not go with Aegon they should have killed Cersei/Jaime rather than Joffrey/Tywin to have proper/competent antagonists for the final season.

The idea that the audience was confused this late in the series also makes little sense - they killed a lot of characters in the Great Sept explosion, and if there is an issue in the last couple seasons it is the fact that they essentially have to few characters, not too many. Especially too few characters with a plot or a story or a purpose of their own.

[Lady Anna]

I think introducing Aegon, Arianne, and even Lady Stoneheart would have pumped new blood into the show, post-climax of s4, making it still exciting and twist-y. I think not doing that caused the show to meander through seasons 5-7, and some characters left without a purpose/plot (Tyrion, Varys, Jaime, etc.).

[Le Cygne]

12 hours ago, SeanF said:

Did Tyrion actually give a single piece of good advice in the last three seasons?

Tyrion talking Jon into murdering Dany turned out good for himself.

"I love her too. Not as successfully as you..."

This coming from someone who murdered his girlfriend after she slept with his father. And murdered his father, too.

Jon is like, sure, I'll murder my girlfriend and be a kinslayer like you.

So Jon the biggest chump ever was banished and Tyrion got to stay and set up brothels with his real buddy, the lord of Highgarden.

So many good messages in all of this. It's just so awesome.

[Lord Varys]

38 minutes ago, Lady Anna said:

I think introducing Aegon, Arianne, and even Lady Stoneheart would have pumped new blood into the show, post-climax of s4, making it still exciting and twist-y. I think not doing that caused the show to meander through seasons 5-7, and some characters left without a purpose/plot (Tyrion, Varys, Jaime, etc.).

Definitely. In fact, the show gang has no excuse for not doing that, nor for ending the show with as few episodes as they did (when there was really no reason to do so). They knew where the story was going and would have thus able to introduce key players earlier. Varys and Illyrio could have met again in seasons 3-4, say, we could have seen the leadership of the Golden Company first during one such conference. And Connington and Aegon and their gang could have been first seen at the banks of the Rhoyne, as a curious set of characters living in the middle of nowhere preparing for some important event in the future. The background of there being another Targaryen pretender could have been build up throughout the seasons, etc.

What really made AFfC such a weird book that caused so much confusion was the realization that the political plot in the future books would be horribly boring and one-sided since there was no chance that Cersei and the Tyrells ripping each other to pieces would be able to stand against a Targaryen restoration - which ADwD rectified since we realized that Tommen's regime has to crumbe for Aegon being able to rise.

And we saw how bad such an 'AFfC-only plot' looked in the show - it only 'worked' because none of the characters involved (meaning essentially all of Westeros) behaved the way they would have behaved in a realistic setting - which means Cersei would have been deposed and killed a week or so after Dany landed on Dragonstone without there being any sort of war.

[SeanF]

52 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Tyrion talking Jon into murdering Dany turned out good for himself.

"I love her too. Not as successfully as you..."

This coming from someone who murdered his girlfriend after she slept with his father. And murdered his father, too.

Jon is like, sure, I'll murder my girlfriend and be a kinslayer like you.

So Jon the biggest chump ever was banished and Tyrion got to stay and set up brothels with his real buddy, the lord of Highgarden.

So many good messages in all of this. It's just so awesome.

Yes, it's very inspiring.

Jon, the simpleton, was played by Sansa, Bran, and Tyrion, so that they could inherit the earth.

[SeanF]

18 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I completely disagree. The very fact that Aegon is Aegon (or rather, says he is Aegon) gives Daenerys something AND someone to fight when she comes to Westeros. Someone that will be very hard to defeat and remove, despite the fact that he is no match for her militarily or economically. Arianne, unlike Sansa, has a legitimate problem with Daenerys and has a bad habit of being a sucker for fake news.

Aegon's story is probably going to end in failure and death but I doubt Arianne's story will. I think Arianne will continue to be a thorn in Daenerys' side up until the very bittersweet end.

There's no way that Cersei would have been able to stay in power (much less become Queen Rex) after blowing up an entire city district and killing thousands of people just so that she can avoid being tried for crimes that she actually committed.

If they ran Rhaenyra (a much more legitimate Queen) out of King's Landing and stormed the Dragonpit because of Rhaenyra's strict policymaking (albeit excessively strict) and the rumors about the true nature of Helaena's death, then...lol

There's no way that Cersei would be able to unite the majority of southern Westeros against Daenerys.

"She (Nymeria) burned as bright as any man and so shall I" suggests what Arianne's end will be. 

Arianne is the kind of person who would prefer to die as a martyr, the rightful Queen of Westeros in her eyes,  than pledge fealty to Daenerys.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

"She (Nymeria) burned as bright as any man and so shall I" suggests what Arianne's end will be. 

Arianne is the kind of person who would prefer to die as a martyr, the rightful Queen of Westeros in her eyes,  than pledge fealty to Daenerys.

Oh, we will have to wait and see how she turns out. It seems likely that she is going to push Aegon to not join with Dany, but how much of a role she is going to play in what kind of conflict they later have we'll have to wait and see.

Keep in mind that Arianne is Dornish - even if she were the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms and the mother of Aegon's heir she would still be Dornish. And the Dornish are not that popular in the rest of Westeros. And since we can also reasonably expect that the Dornish armies will help Aegon to win the throne, Dorne might no longer be in that good a shape by the time Dany arrives. Thus we can't really assess how much of an opposition Arianne can marshal against Daenerys when she finally arrives.

Also keep in mind that once her father is dead, she is going to become the Princess of Dorne - while she resents the fact that Quentyn is supposed to be prince/king consort now rather than her queen consort, I'm not sure whether she is going to prefer being the ruler of Dorne or the consort beside a Targaryen king. If she were to fall in love with Aegon then it is likely going to be the latter - but if she is just going to use him as a pawn then she certainly could cut ties with him and his movement once she realizes he is doomed.

[BlackLightning]

On 1/8/2020 at 1:05 PM, Cas Stark said:

Maybe if they had done the show for 10-11 years then Aegon could have replaced Cersei as the main antagonist of the last third/quarter, but as it was, adding in the Aegon/Arianne storyline so late in the series would have thrown the audience and further damaged what little arc there was the last 3 seasons, viewers already, had trouble remembering everyone but the Starks, Lannisters, Margery and Dany....adding another two major characters and their secondaries would have been overwhelming.  But, mileage will vary on this, and I am someone who doesn't like their book story either. 

I disagree.

The reason why everyone knew who the Starks, the Lannisters, Margaery and Dany were was because they were in damn near every single episode each season for years in a row and they were at the thick of very important plots.

The Starks, the Lannisters and Daenerys were in the very first episode and Margaery's first appearance occurs early in the second season.

On 1/8/2020 at 4:45 PM, Lady Anna said:

I think introducing Aegon, Arianne, and even Lady Stoneheart would have pumped new blood into the show, post-climax of s4, making it still exciting and twist-y. I think not doing that caused the show to meander through seasons 5-7, and some characters left without a purpose/plot (Tyrion, Varys, Jaime, etc.).

Oh, definitely! Lady Stoneheart alone would have 200% made the show more exciting and twist-y after season 4. Forget Brienne and Jaime? Can you imagine undead Catelyn reuniting with Arya, Bran, Littlefinger and (even more interesting) undead Jon? That's good TV right there.

I actually didn't think the show meandered through season 5 or even season 6. Season 5 is when the cracks started to show and I clearly remember having some issues with key parts of season 5. In season 6, the issues I had doubled and deepened. And yes, one of such problems I had was the pacing. But with season 6, it was getting clear that things were moving way too fast. Not too slow.

The only time I felt like the show meandered its way through for no reason was season 7. By season 7, only 2 characters (3 characters max) had any real purpose and significance....everyone else's purpose waxed and waned with each episode based on the plot...which was very shallow. 

[Lord Varys]

29 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I disagree.

The reason why everyone knew who the Starks, the Lannisters, Margaery and Dany were was because they were in damn near every single episode each season for years in a row and they were at the thick of very important plots.

The Starks, the Lannisters and Daenerys were in the very first episode and Margaery's first appearance occurs early in the second season.

Sure, if people were able to follow the plot in season 1 and could deal with the introduction of many other new characters and plots, they would also have been able to handle Aegon - especially since we are talking about two new important main characters there. Most of his gang could be combined into a couple of side characters.

And Dorne's important characters would have been Arianne, Doran, and Quentyn to a point - we never needed Ellaria or the Sand Snakes.

29 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I actually didn't think the show meandered through season 5 or even season 6. Season 5 is when the cracks started to show and I clearly remember having some issues with key parts of season 5. In season 6, the issues I had doubled and deepened. And yes, one of such problems I had was the pacing. But with season 6, it was getting clear that things were moving way too fast. Not too slow.

The earlier seasons have a lot of shitty invented stuff, too - the Qarth plot, the weird meeting between Jon and Ygritte in season 2, Podrick Payne nonsense, Jon going to Craster's, etc.

Season 5 does away with most of George's plots and dialogue, though, really hammering home the fact that the writers couldn't do justice to either.

[BlackLightning]

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, if people were able to follow the plot in season 1 and could deal with the introduction of many other new characters and plots, they would also have been able to handle Aegon - especially since we are talking about two new important main characters there. Most of his gang could be combined into a couple of side characters.

And Dorne's important characters would have been Arianne, Doran, and Quentyn to a point - we never needed Ellaria or the Sand Snakes.

The earlier seasons have a lot of shitty invented stuff, too - the Qarth plot, the weird meeting between Jon and Ygritte in season 2, Podrick Payne nonsense, Jon going to Craster's, etc.

Season 5 does away with most of George's plots and dialogue, though, really hammering home the fact that the writers couldn't do justice to either.

We never needed Ellaria.

I think we needed the Sand Snakes. At least, Obara, Sarella, Nymeria and Tyene. Sarella is in Oldtown at the Citadel (I know what happens there will be a massive part of the plot moving forward), Nymeria would've made things more interesting for the King's Landing cast and thus the audience and Obara is a warrior and just as interesting a warrior as say Bronn. A lot Ellaria's scenes and beats are actually taken from Obara.

Tyene could have been an amalgamation character fusing Elia Sand with Tyene Sand

I would hardly consider the Sand Snakes outside of Sarella as important but I think they are needed.

Part of the problem with seasons 6-8 (especially season 8) is that not enough characters that mattered died.

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I think we needed the Sand Snakes. At least, Obara, Sarella, Nymeria and Tyene. Sarella is in Oldtown at the Citadel (I know what happens there will be a massive part of the plot moving forward), Nymeria would've made things more interesting for the King's Landing cast and thus the audience and Obara is a warrior and just as interesting a warrior as say Bronn. A lot Ellaria's scenes and beats are actually taken from Obara.

Tyene could have been an amalgamation character fusing Elia Sand with Tyene Sand

I would hardly consider the Sand Snakes outside of Sarella as important but I think they are needed.

I think if we imagine there being some tweaking/cutting then the part of the Dornish story that could go are Oberyn's daughters and the entire internal Dornish plotting with Myrcella. We need Doran and Arianne and Quentyn (for the setting up of the Dany-Arianne/Aegon conflict) - but that's it.

And Aegon would need Connington and the Golden Company, basically.

5 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Part of the problem with seasons 6-8 (especially season 8) is that not enough characters that mattered died.

That is definitely one of the major issues. There is basically no character development and there are no twists or important characters dying.

This is also one of the main reasons why we should not really expect Cersei to stick out in KL for long. She is either going to die soon (unlikely, with her just having become a POV) or she will leave and, perhaps, retake the city later during the Second Dance of the Dragons. I've said since, well, forever that Euron and Cersei will hook up and marry in the books, and at Euron's side Cersei technically does have a shot of taking KL from either Aegon or even Daenerys (especially at a time when they are at some other place, fighting their civil war or even the Others).

In such a scenario she could be some sort of big bad wildfire boss at the very end.

However, I actually Cersei is going to have a crueler and more evil story of her own. If she is going to explode to kill everyone one would think Lannisport or Casterly Rock - making her victims Westermen, her own people, not the Kingslanders who always hated the Lannisters, anyway.

The fact that KL still hates the Lannisters due to Tywin's sack the chances of Cersei - even with Euron's help - holding the city against anyone with a better claim (i.e. a Targaryen pretender with or without dragons) is very low. Regardless what Daenerys or Aegon do, the Kingslanders won't abandon them - at least not a far some Lannister claimant/pretender.

All that, I think, is that we should actually expect a KL wildfire burning scenario (or an attempt to do that) to be a final plan in camp Aegon, not so much in camp Cersei or camp Dany. And to suspect Connington and/or Varys there would make quite a lot of sense - they served under the Mad King and they do actually have a connection to him and his policies. Dany has no clue about such a plan, and while Cersei started to use the pyromancers she is neither obsessed with fire/burning as such, nor does she has any clue about the wildfire plan - and wouldn't consider such a mad thing while her children were still alive. Once they are dead her priorities will change, of course, but then she will no longer be in power - because the show scenario of Cersei becoming queen regnant in her own right is not going to happen. I think book Cersei could have tried to pull something like that as Robert's widow after the death of all their children and in absence of another worthy heir ... but only before her walk of shame. Afterwards she is done as a political power in her own right on royal level. She could try to return to that level as Euron's wife and queen and, of course, as a warlord commanding a large army of Westerlanders and sellswords, but that is then not likely going to be a bid for power but rather an all-out rampage with the goal to destroy everybody she considers her enemy, no matter the cost and no matter how many of her own people die in the process of it.

[Le Cygne]

As far as the Golden Globes are concerned, winter continues for “Game of Thrones.”

The HBO behemoth walked away empty-handed from Sunday night’s telecast after a final season that was not well received by either critics or viewers...

Season 8 of “Game of Thrones” drew such a substantial backlash that hundreds of thousands of fans started a petition demanding that HBO remake the final collection of episodes. Cast members were constantly peppered with questions asking for their reaction to the backlash, and during the show’s final Comic-Con appearance in July, one of its stars, Conleth Hill (who played Lord Varys), labeled the backlash a “media-led hate campaign.”

https://variety.com/2020/tv/awards/game-of-thrones-final-season-2020-golden-globes-no-wins-1203456642

So let's see the excuses:

• viewers are too dumb to know that it's not that they didn't like it, it's that they didn't want it to end
• viewers are too dumb to know what they think period (thankfully someone else is thinking for them!)

Everyone was really clear, the show ended badly. (As if that wasn't completely obvious.)

[Darryk]

On 1/10/2020 at 7:25 PM, Le Cygne said:

As far as the Golden Globes are concerned, winter continues for “Game of Thrones.”

They can make all the excuses they want but deep down they got the message.

[Mindwalker]

I'm a bit disappointed with Conleth.

Then again, 'the media' had crawled into D&D's... I mean, praised the emperors' clothes as if they were god's gift to humanity for 7 seasons, so the contrast to when they finally changed their tune must have been disconcerting.

[SeanF]

7 hours ago, Mindwalker said:

I'm a bit disappointed with Conleth.

Then again, 'the media' had crawled into D&D's... I mean, praised the emperors' clothes as if they were god's gift to humanity for 7 seasons, so the contrast to when they finally changed their tune must have been disconcerting.

Had there been more criticism earlier, we might have got a better series.

[Cas Stark]

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

Had there been more criticism earlier, we might have got a better series.

Yes.  The fact that the 'writing' was still being praised up to season 7 when it had become so atrocious shows how bandwagony things had gotten.  I still thought that they would try harder--especially with the super long break--and was surprised at how truly terrible the last season was in terms of plot, story and writing.