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Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

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I'm not sure what to do on the Austin Film Festival front.  By the way their exact words were:

Quote


Material from the Benioff Weiss panel will be available this season on the television program we produce, called ON STORY, which will be available for viewing on our website onstory.tv later this spring.  

That should be hilarious.

Anyway they haven't responded back to me, though I e-mailed them only four hours ago - politely asking "okay, you don't want us to use clips from that soundcloud recording, this was unclear - can you please withdraw your copyright complaint? Otherwise my channel stays locked for a full three months.  Then I'll just take the clips down".  

I worry they won't even respond.  In which case....YouTube explanation is that "unless they provide evidence of a court action filed against you", the claim automatically gets retracted in 10 business days.  I don't know if they want to go through the expense of a court action for something so small, even if they're unwilling to lift the block on their own.  I mean Disney or HBO have entire lawyer departments dealing with sending cease and desist claims to YouTube.  But Austin Film Festival?  

I'm hoping it's more trouble than it's worth.  

I haven't "retracted my counter-claim" or anything.

My point is that we haven't had much new to rant about in the "Rant and Rave Without Repercussion" thread, but by....April at the latest, it seems, there's going to be an official video of this disastrous panel - the one that finally broke them.  Some have pointed out to be that it will be interesting to see if they edit out any of the embarrassing parts (that  would be difficult, my own clips used 15 minutes that were pretty bad, out of a 1 hour 20 minute panel).  We shall see.

(shrug)…..I'm going to advance to reviewing the Season 8 Blu-ray commentaries.  I'm aware of absolutely no one else who did that (except for D&D's own track for the finale, which as usual was just them being drunken dudebros).  I'm interested in hearing Cogman and Hill squirm about this.  Virtually none of the major cast members came back to do commentary, even compared to Season 7 (of the seven "Tier A" core cast members, only Emilia Clarke.)

 

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Just remembered they said this about Dany in an outside the episode in 2016, more for the they didn't plan the ending pile. Also there's a Stark ruthlessness...

"She's not her father and she's not insane and she's not a sadist, but there's a Targaryen ruthlessness that comes with even the good Targaryens."

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I went to Midtown Comics yesterday, the big comic book store near Times Square in New York City.  I went to buy the first issue of the "A Clash of Kings: Part II" comic adaptation.  It starts with the Sansa chapter where Joffrey has her beaten in the throne room because Robb won the Battle of Oxcross.  Also had a Bran chapter (first mentioning "Rodrik brought this prisoner Reek back to Winterfell") and a Jon Snow chapter (arriving at the Fist of the First men and finding dragonglass) ---- great to see this series starting up again on a monthly basis, it's been a while.

Anyway, the cashier girl at the desk noticed I was wearing a Targaryen t-shirt and buying the comic, and asked "so what did you think of the ending?" (she apparently didn't like it either)…..I then remarked something about "it was bad for years, ever since they went off book, this shouldn't have surprised people".

…...I mentioned something like "they made a Sansa rape that doesn't even happen in the books, why were people surprised they were going crazy?".....and she seemed confused, I reiterated more "Sansa doesn't even meet the Boltons in the books, this was as random as if they had ARYA marry and get raped by Ramsay, for no clear reason"....and she's startled and says "that wasn't in the books?!?!"

 

…..HOW do people still not know that?!

Edited by The Dragon Demands

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I’ve compared hype for a tv show - any hit show that turns bad - to a cult.  Like how Battlestar Galactica fanatics refused to admit how bad the later seasons were - the tv hype fans for Game of Thrones who defended the later seasons are nothing special. 
 

and I found this interesting quote about the appeal of cults:
 

Quote

why it will catch on like wildfire, is that it makes people feel connected to something important that other people don't yet know about. ...

All cults will provide this feeling of being special. 

There is no self-correction process within the group, since the self-reinforcing true believers are immune to correction, fact-checking, or counter-speech, which is drowned out in the groupthink the cult.

What hit me are two things:  the Last Watch documentary showing the crew working on season eight with blind enthusiasm, each saying “we’re going to be part of tv history!”...

....and then Benioff, at the Austin Film Fest panel, in the recording of that...he admits he told them that.  I mean he SPELLS OUT: “we got the crew really enthusiastic to work on this, because this is the biggest show in the world and it’s going to be tv history!”

 

Edited by The Dragon Demands

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1 hour ago, The Dragon Demands said:

I’ve compared hype for a tv show - any hit show that turns bad - to a cult.  Like how Battlestar Galactica fanatics refused to admit how bad the later seasons were - the tv hype fans for Game of Thrones who defended the later seasons are nothing special. 
 

and I found this interesting quote about the appeal of cults:
 

What hit me are two things:  the Last Watch documentary showing the crew working on season eight with blind enthusiasm, each saying “we’re going to be part of tv history!”...

....and then Benioff, at the Austin Film Fest panel, in the recording of that...he admits he told them that.  I mean he SPELLS OUT: “we got the crew really enthusiastic to work on this, because this is the biggest show in the world and it’s going to be tv history!”

 

Well, they were part of TV history.

Just not the sort of TV history you would want to be part of.

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Now that I come to think about it, the Night King didn't have to attack at all; he could have just laid siege to Winterfell and wait for the forces of the living to wither away with no help. Compare with surrounding Jon and whoever went on the wight hunt in Season 7; since he's been around for 8,000 years+, they could have been there for days and that would be like a couple hours of a breather to him.

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Another oft used talking point, when asked about the ending, the actors deflected answers about ending, instead saying that it was "bittersweet" for the show to end because they wouldn't be working with each other again.

The "reporters" (who were for the most part serving as paid fans to keep the hype train rolling with their fan pages) would in turn deliver the talking point as "the ending is bittersweet" even though that's not what they said.

Just did a quick search, first one that came up:

Headline:

'Game of Thrones': Peter Dinklage Teases "Beautifully Bittersweet" Ending

Actual comment:

"But as anticlimactic as it was, my last day was also beautifully bittersweet. A lot of people whom I love were on set that day. Even if they weren’t working, they came to set, which was beautiful. I tried to do the same thing when other actors were wrapping out. If it was their day, you would go to set to say good-bye. It was really hard."

Also just have to add, not only is this not the book character, this should be no character. He was always awesome, he just had to find out what to do with his awesomeness:

"The beauty of Tyrion is that he grew out of that mode in a couple of seasons and developed a strong sense of responsibility. Not morality, because he always had that, but what to do with his intelligence."

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-peter-dinklage-teases-beautifully-bittersweet-ending-1152511

Edited by Le Cygne

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There really was nothing groundbreaking about Game of Thrones. That was another talking point, but Lord of the Rings had already broken the ground, and you could actually SEE it.

Another talking point, strong women (as if this needs to be remarked upon, like women aren't naturally strong). The way GoT used women as plot devices was certainly nothing new.

Even the spirited Antigone, the brave Joan of Arc and the unfettered Thelma and Louise meet tragic ends in large part because they are spirited, brave and unfettered. They can defy kings, refuse beauty and defend themselves against violence. But it’s challenging for a writer to imagine a world in which such free women can exist without brutal consequences...

When we kill women in our stories, we aren’t just annihilating female gendered bodies. We are annihilating the feminine as a force wherever it resides — in women, in men, of the natural world. Because what we really mean when we say we want strong female leads is: “Give me a man but in the body of a woman I still want to see naked...

I don’t want to be the dead girl, or Dave’s wife. But I don’t want to be a strong female lead either, if my power is defined largely by violence and domination, conquest and colonization.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/07/opinion/sunday/brit-marling-women-movies.html

Edited by Le Cygne

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8 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

There really was nothing groundbreaking about Game of Thrones. That was another talking point, but Lord of the Rings had already broken the ground, and you could actually SEE it.

Another talking point, strong women (as if this needs to be remarked upon, like women aren't naturally strong). The way GoT used women as plot devices was certainly nothing new.

Even the spirited Antigone, the brave Joan of Arc and the unfettered Thelma and Louise meet tragic ends in large part because they are spirited, brave and unfettered. They can defy kings, refuse beauty and defend themselves against violence. But it’s challenging for a writer to imagine a world in which such free women can exist without brutal consequences...

When we kill women in our stories, we aren’t just annihilating female gendered bodies. We are annihilating the feminine as a force wherever it resides — in women, in men, of the natural world. Because what we really mean when we say we want strong female leads is: “Give me a man but in the body of a woman I still want to see naked...

I don’t want to be the dead girl, or Dave’s wife. But I don’t want to be a strong female lead either, if my power is defined largely by violence and domination, conquest and colonization.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/07/opinion/sunday/brit-marling-women-movies.html

Almost scene for scene, the ending of AGOT ripped off the final scenes of the Hunger Games Trilogy.  I'll post a link later.

https://www.tvguide.com/news/that-game-of-thrones-ending-was-basically-the-same-as-the-hunger-games-mockingjay/

I'd qualify that article slightly in that heroic women (like Joan of Arc or Edith Cavell) do sometimes meet bad ends.  Sometimes virtue does have to be its own reward.

I think too that if anyone (man or woman) wants to be a leader, than a certain level of ruthlessness is required  (although complete amorality is usually counterproductive).  In the books, I think that both Daenerys and Arianne struggle with that fact.  Daenerys' problems in Slavers Bay stem from being insufficiently ruthless towards the masters;  Arianne doesn't want to acknowledge that people have to die, in order for her to claim her inheritance.

Edited by SeanF

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9 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Another oft used talking point, when asked about the ending, the actors deflected answers about ending, instead saying that it was "bittersweet" for the show to end because they wouldn't be working with each other again.

The "reporters" (who were for the most part serving as paid fans to keep the hype train rolling with their fan pages) would in turn deliver the talking point as "the ending is bittersweet" even though that's not what they said.

Just did a quick search, first one that came up:

Headline:

'Game of Thrones': Peter Dinklage Teases "Beautifully Bittersweet" Ending

Actual comment:

"But as anticlimactic as it was, my last day was also beautifully bittersweet. A lot of people whom I love were on set that day. Even if they weren’t working, they came to set, which was beautiful. I tried to do the same thing when other actors were wrapping out. If it was their day, you would go to set to say good-bye. It was really hard."

Also just have to add, not only is this not the book character, this should be no character. He was always awesome, he just had to find out what to do with his awesomeness:

"The beauty of Tyrion is that he grew out of that mode in a couple of seasons and developed a strong sense of responsibility. Not morality, because he always had that, but what to do with his intelligence."

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-peter-dinklage-teases-beautifully-bittersweet-ending-1152511

The ending was mostly nihilistic, not bittersweet.  D & D thought that giving fan service endings to some long-standing characters would work, and it didn't.

Having the character who has been built up as the hero of the tale stab the character who has been built up as the heroine of the tale through  the heart (after the latter has abruptly become Satan/Hitler) would take superlative writing to be anything other than nihilistic;  having the family who suffered as a result of their determination to do the right thing become faithless allies/faithless vassals is nihilistic;   having the country ruled by a Small Council that is variously corrupt or incompetent, under an apathetic king, and by lords who regard the Smallfolk as livestock, is nihilistic.  

Edited by SeanF

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9 hours ago, SeanF said:

Almost scene for scene, the ending of AGOT ripped off the final scenes of the Hunger Games Trilogy.  I'll post a link later.

https://www.tvguide.com/news/that-game-of-thrones-ending-was-basically-the-same-as-the-hunger-games-mockingjay/

I'd qualify that article slightly in that heroic women (like Joan of Arc or Edith Cavell) do sometimes meet bad ends.  Sometimes virtue does have to be its own reward.

I think too that if anyone (man or woman) wants to be a leader, than a certain level of ruthlessness is required  (although complete amorality is usually counterproductive).  In the books, I think that both Daenerys and Arianne struggle with that fact.  Daenerys' problems in Slavers Bay stem from being insufficiently ruthless towards the masters;  Arianne doesn't want to acknowledge that people have to die, in order for her to claim her inheritance.

That wasn't the point of her article. You are justifying Dany in the framework of the show. She's saying think beyond the framework of a world where women are not valued.

She's saying take women like Dany and Sansa and write very different stories about them, that celebrate who they are, and that will be a very different kind of story.

When I read the books vs. watch the show, I see a difference, even though he's not grasped telling such stories, either. At least he's trying to be true to the women.

At this point, even an effort is appreciated. This show not only didn't try, it made things worse, they never bother to think beyond their own viewpoint because they don't have to.

Edited by Le Cygne

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9 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

That wasn't the point of her article. You are justifying Dany in the framework of the show. She's saying think beyond the framework of a world where women are not valued.

She's saying take women like Dany and Sansa and write very different stories about them, that celebrate who they are, and that will be a very different kind of story.

When I read the books vs. watch the show, I see a difference, even though he's not grasped telling such stories, either. At least he's trying to be true to the women.

At this point, even an effort is appreciated. This show not only didn't try, it made things worse, they never bother to think beyond their own viewpoint because they don't have to.

I accept fully that the only purpose of women on the show was to be brutalised, or to be badass, or both. 

My comments about Dany and Arianne were book-based, not show-based.

I get what the writer of the article is saying, but there is a massive appetite for stories about war and killing.

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3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I accept fully that the only purpose of women on the show was to be brutalised, or to be badass, or both. 

My comments about Dany and Arianne were book-based, not show-based.

I get what the writer of the article is saying, but there is a massive appetite for stories about war and killing.

Well, there's a massive appetite for other stories, but it is unmet.

Edited by Le Cygne

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2 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Well, there's a massive appetite for other stories, but it is unmet.

I think there's a widespread assumption that any fantasy series worth its name has to feature varying degrees of brutality, in large part because they so often feature crapsack worlds.

But, there ought to be no reason why you can't have romances, or crime stories, or other genres set within fantasy worlds. 

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2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think there's a widespread assumption that any fantasy series worth its name has to feature varying degrees of brutality, in large part because they so often feature crapsack worlds.

But, there ought to be no reason why you can't have romances, or crime stories, or other genres set within fantasy worlds. 

Good point, and as a fantasy, there is a lot of opportunity to break free of confining constructs that go down well worn paths that deny characters opportunities to explore who they really are.

I often hear the argument, well, they had to do this. No, they didn't, they only "had to" because it was written that way. That's the beauty of telling stories, they can be told any way you like.

Edited by Le Cygne

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13 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Good point, and as a fantasy, there is a lot of opportunity to break free of confining constructs that go down well worn paths that deny characters opportunities to explore who they really are.

I often hear the argument, well, they had to do this. No, they didn't, they only "had to" because it was written that way. That's the beauty of telling stories, they can be told any way you like.

Even if you are writing about war, or horror, you can choose the way you want to write about it.  You can write a gripping story which is not filled with wall to wall rape and brutality.  Some of the best horror stories feature very little in the way of explicit violence. I agree with Martin's view that bad horror writing is about  "giving a graphic account of how the rats devoured Billy's genitalia." 

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5 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

 

 That's the beauty of telling stories, they can be told any way you like.

Maybe D&D took that way too far...

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I keep coming back to this:  Why did so many suddenly get angry about Season 8, but not earlier stuff like the Sansa rape? Starting with Season 5?  "Denial" seems too simplistic; well, not just "watching with cautious optimism" types, I'm talking the people who were outright "hyped" for Season 8, despite everything, and then hated it....but not Season 5 onwards.

I ran into a cashier girl the other day at a comic book store, who noticed I was buying the Clash of Kings comic, and asked "so what did you think of the ending?".....I said "it was bad, but why was anyone surprised? It was awful since season 5.  Where were all these season 8 critics when the invented Sansa rape happened?"

She looked confused, and after a round of explanation, it turns out she was STILL totally unaware that the Sansa rape wasn't in the books, and isn't what "really" happens.  After all this time.  

I think one of the reasons the Sansa rape annoys me the most is that it's the one they tried to gaslight us on most of all:  "this makes sense! this makes sense!".....while, bizarrely, mounting no defense for say, TV-Dorne….or other blatantly non-books stuff....and people would just....forget about it.

Might just be because it's for core characters (a TV audience wouldn't realistically know who Arianne Martell is), but they pulled that shit on us for years; fundamentally people were willing to accept ruining what they considered "secondary to minor" characters.

But ruining Daenerys, Jon, and Arya?  Season 8 firmly did that, and suddenly no one can think of a defense.  They got what they deserved.

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In other news, my ongoing fight with Austin Film Fest continues over using those audio clips to report on the bizarre, self-incriminating D&D said in them.   Since taking down my clips, they've successfully managed to take down all audio recordings of it - from youtube, as well as the ORIGINAL recording, from SoundCloud.

I saved a copy if anyone wants it, though it was posted nearly four months ago last week of October, so I think anyone who was going to listen to it already has.

They e-mailed me with a response to my counter-claim, "No, we are familiar with Fair Use, this is not it" -- bullshit.  They didn't even articulate point by point how it is not, whereas my counter-claim points out specifics; it's for news reporting, on an established news channel, it's not a clip of the full thing, it's "transformative" from the original, and they made no attempt to take down the soundcloud recording for three months - and when major news sites like Forbes, Esquire, and Nerdist are reporting on that recording, it is ABSURD to claim they were unaware of it (they may in fact have been, but that's just negligence on their part). 

I e-mailed them back - but never got a reply - that, while admitting no fault on my end, I'd voluntarily take down the clips....if they remove the copyright claim on my channel (either way, even if I accept their claim, my channel gets locked for 3 full months and I get a permanent copyright strike).  

These are the potential scenarios that will result:

  • Given that they haven't responded, they apparently didn't accept my offer to take it down if they remove the claim, which was reasonable on my part.
  •  I would win a court case on principle....but I'm just one fan and I don't know if I can afford that.  So if they push to a court case, it's bad, and either way, my channel remains shut down for 3 months.  Moreover, if they DO push a court case, I'm not sure if dropping my counter-claim at that point would stop it, or if it would CONTINUE to court.  Then again most people in my comments sections  who know legal stuff have pointed out "this is a textbook case of Fair Use", and I don't know if AFF is even used to filing takedown notices.
  • If 10 full business days pass (next week Wednesday by this point) and AFF hasn't filed a formal court case against me, to back up their copyright claim which I formally challenged....then their claim gets dropped and the videos get reinstated, and the block on my channel drops.  I don't know if the copyright strike stays too.  

So if I wait them out through next week, I win by default.  I tried to meet them halfway on this....but they had to be a little Johnny-Live-A-Lot.  

 

Best case scenario....possibly, because I'm not sure how this works....is that by the end of next week, if they take no action against my (strong) counter-claim, then:

  • A- the videos get reinstated and my channel unlocked
  • B - I DO NOT retain a permanent copyright strike (three strikes and they shut your channel down...I would ASSUME a successful counter-claim removes that)
  • C - I WILL NOT remove the clips using the original audio - I offered to do that and they ignored me, so they brought this upon themselves.

 

 

Edited by The Dragon Demands

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